No cues are 100% straight. Just what you can tolerate.
Testing Cues for Straightness
- Thread starter John Biddle
- Start date
Because cues don't win pool games, players do.
But-but-but, Players are very inexpensive cues, and to say only they win pool games, is obviously incorrect!
-Sean
Let's remember that this subject came up as an issue related to evaluating 6 custom cues by unknown makers. I felt it was my responsibility to point out both the good and the bad with every cue in the bunch.
I believe that straightness is important, because I believe it is harder to control a crooked cue. It's certainly doable, just like many pros play magnificently with less than stellar fundamentals, But to maximize one's chances to improve, it will be easiest with good fundamentals and a straight stick.
There are lots of reasons people miss, or miss shape. I'm not blaming crookedness, it could be many other things. I do think that crookedness contributes either to missing or to a more difficult learning curve, which means many more misses along the way.
All other things being equal, would any of you buy a visibly nonstraight cue? I'm not talking about stopping your use of a long time player you have years of history with that has slowly gone off a little but you're used to it. I'm talking about a brand new cue bought with your hard earned cash.
I believe that straightness is important, because I believe it is harder to control a crooked cue. It's certainly doable, just like many pros play magnificently with less than stellar fundamentals, But to maximize one's chances to improve, it will be easiest with good fundamentals and a straight stick.
There are lots of reasons people miss, or miss shape. I'm not blaming crookedness, it could be many other things. I do think that crookedness contributes either to missing or to a more difficult learning curve, which means many more misses along the way.
All other things being equal, would any of you buy a visibly nonstraight cue? I'm not talking about stopping your use of a long time player you have years of history with that has slowly gone off a little but you're used to it. I'm talking about a brand new cue bought with your hard earned cash.
probably not
John,
If we are talking about a cue that the butt rolls out visibly I'm probably not going to buy it. Shafts don't mean a whole lot to me on hinged cues. The price is going to reflect the shaft condition but it isn't a deal breaker. Even a joint that needs facing isn't a big deal in my world.
The butt does need to be rolled on something that has the wrap clear of the surface if it isn't turned between centers, easy to have a wrap that doesn't roll perfect and that is meaningless. Same with a sanding wobble, you can have a dead straight cue that seems to have a wobble in it if the sanding isn't perfectly equal on each side. This is purely cosmetic on the butt or the upper part of the shaft in almost all cases. I'm not going to pay thousands for a cue with a sanding wobble in the butt but people do all the time.
To sum up, shaft no big deal. Joint face, no big deal either. If I really want the cue and perceive a wobble I'm going to know where the wobble is at and the probable cause before making an offer. A real wobble that is noticeable in the butt of anything but an absolute collectors item is probably a deal breaker. I don't consider most sanding or any wrap wobbles a real wobble, by that I mean an indication of a serious flaw in the cue.
Hu
John,
If we are talking about a cue that the butt rolls out visibly I'm probably not going to buy it. Shafts don't mean a whole lot to me on hinged cues. The price is going to reflect the shaft condition but it isn't a deal breaker. Even a joint that needs facing isn't a big deal in my world.
The butt does need to be rolled on something that has the wrap clear of the surface if it isn't turned between centers, easy to have a wrap that doesn't roll perfect and that is meaningless. Same with a sanding wobble, you can have a dead straight cue that seems to have a wobble in it if the sanding isn't perfectly equal on each side. This is purely cosmetic on the butt or the upper part of the shaft in almost all cases. I'm not going to pay thousands for a cue with a sanding wobble in the butt but people do all the time.
To sum up, shaft no big deal. Joint face, no big deal either. If I really want the cue and perceive a wobble I'm going to know where the wobble is at and the probable cause before making an offer. A real wobble that is noticeable in the butt of anything but an absolute collectors item is probably a deal breaker. I don't consider most sanding or any wrap wobbles a real wobble, by that I mean an indication of a serious flaw in the cue.
Hu
John, I have been playing pool for a few years, repairing cues for a few years, and building cues for a few years, and respectfully I still totally disagree with you. If the front of the cue is straight, and warp or bent section of the cue is not with in your zone of vision and your stroke the bend will not be perceivable at all and it will have no effect on shot making. The front section of the cue mainly the ferrule and tip are basically all that you aim with, so from your bridge hand to the tip there will be no wobble if that section is straight, now that is if you have a pendulum stroke.
Beginning players often worry far to much about things that are basically meaningless and this destroys their concentration. Some more experienced players become anal about their equipment and no matter how long they play they just can not get past the fact that the distance of an excuse is 0 meters. There is no excuse for missing shots in 99.9% of all situations other than operator head space and timing, which amounts to poor fundamentals, lack of concentration, and the occasional miscue DO TO A BAD TIP, not do to a bad stroke.
Now I am not saying that a badly bent cue will not hurt your game, what I am trying to say is that in place of dwelling on minor problems a person who can focus on the game will win.
JIMO
John, those cues are not brand new.
They've been all over.
How many were left out during 10% or 80% humidity days and for how long.
I saw them here myself. All were functionally straight imo.
NONE were crooked to make one miss.
If anybody is going to convince me, their practice stroke is consistently within a credit card's thickness accurate all the time, I'll tell him to join the pro-tour.
Superman Gomez was here a few months ago. His Pred shaft has a wobble.
The same shaft he went to the World 9-ball final with.
The leather wrap in his cue was 2 MM thick.
Last edited:
good point!
Joey,
As always you have a good point. Those cues have been through hell with all of the traveling. Not on cues but I've had adhesives pop on things flown around the country too much and if something can warp it will. The cold in the cargo area of an airplane can be extreme and then drop down into 70's to 90's on the ground, it's a brutal temperature and humidity change in a short time, the last thing you want to do to a cue over and over. Of course many pro's do fly with their cues, lack of options. However I'd say that all of the flying and different players probably put the same stresses on the cues as years of local playing would.
Hu
Joey,
As always you have a good point. Those cues have been through hell with all of the traveling. Not on cues but I've had adhesives pop on things flown around the country too much and if something can warp it will. The cold in the cargo area of an airplane can be extreme and then drop down into 70's to 90's on the ground, it's a brutal temperature and humidity change in a short time, the last thing you want to do to a cue over and over. Of course many pro's do fly with their cues, lack of options. However I'd say that all of the flying and different players probably put the same stresses on the cues as years of local playing would.
Hu
I agree. If the cue looks straight when you sight along it normally, then it's fine. If it doesn't, get it straightened or change it.
And this does not depend on having a pendulum stroke either. If your back hand is moving straight and your bridge is solid, the tip will move in a straight line. It does not matter what shape the cue is in the middle.
The only exception is if the cue is really warped badly AND you use your chest or some other part of your body as a guide.
These cues have indeed been aged more in their year of existence than most cues ever would. However, not all of them fared the same. If we assume that all cues were straight to begin with, then why are 2 cues able to withstand the rigors of this project and 5 were not?
As to the ongoing issue of does it matter if the cue is straight, I'll sum up my opinion and agree to disagree.
As to the ongoing issue of does it matter if the cue is straight, I'll sum up my opinion and agree to disagree.
- Cues can clearly be warped or bent enough to be a problem.
- Near perfection is possible.
- Somewhere between #1 & #2 there's a point at which it starts to matter.
- That point is different for different players because player error may swamp stick error.
- Perfect alignment is when the grip hand, the bridge point, the center of the cue ball and the target point are all in a straight line.
- A straight stroke is one in which the grip hand travels along this same line.
- One can become a good player with a non-straight stroke, but it's harder to do.
- If a cue is not straight, during the stroke either the tip is not traveling along the target line or the grip hand does not, or both.
- Good pool requires a high degree of accuracy and a high degree of fine motor control.
- A straight cue requires a simpler stroke which maximizes one's ability to deliver the tip to the desired location.
Well John Biddle, I'll say this. As a buyer and seller of cues there are a few things I look for. In regards to the butts, if I can roll it on a flat surface, and it doesn't wobble, then it's normally good enough for playing. There are things that you have to look for, pin alignment, compund tapers, etc. I had someone reject an older South West that I tested on a lathe and knew was dead on. When the taper from the a-joint to the joint is different than the taper from the butt cap to the handle you get a joint that doesn't touch the table. When rolling that joint it should stay off the table the same amount to be considered straight.
Shafts are the most argued part of the cue. The issue is the maker, or owner, can sand more out of an area in the shaft and create a false wobble. When rolling a shaft IMHO the first 8-10 inches and the back joint of the cue, should remain on the table to show they are concentric in doing thise eye test. When you roll a shaft and there was to much sanding in an area it looks like a wobble even though the ends of the shafts are staying on the table. If the shaft is truely warped, one end will NOT stay on the table and will show greatly.
JV
Between centers and a dial gauge is the only way to accurately test straightness. The question is what is acceptable? .001 run-out? .006 run-out? .009 run-out? .015 run-out? Where is the line of demarcation?
There is a point when the scales tip from acceptable to unacceptable, what is that number?
I believe most would agree single digit run-out is not an issue, but when double digit run-out rears it's ugly head there is a cause for concern.
There is a point when the scales tip from acceptable to unacceptable, what is that number?
I believe most would agree single digit run-out is not an issue, but when double digit run-out rears it's ugly head there is a cause for concern.
John,
To tackle what I highlighted in reverse order, Although the bridge and rear hand may be slightly out of line, the areas of the stick going through the bridge and in the back hand are still moving either in the same line or in closely parallel lines when it matters. A stick has to be radically crooked to be unplayable. One of my favorite sticks in an old pool hall back in the early seventies had a pro taper shaft all the way to the joint, it wasn't more than 14 or 15mm at the joint at most and then the butt was normal sized with a big step between the shaft and butt. As you would expect as it aged this cue had developed a huge bow. Maybe an inch over the 28 inches or so it was bowed. This cue played just fine because there wasn't a sharp bend between the tip and bridge or where it passed through the bridge hand.
Why two cues or I believe you said only one cue remained perfect and the others warped to some degree, a portion of that is pure luck. I have wood that has aged over thirty years, it still may warp when I cut it or residual stress may show up as the cue ages. Pointing out the obvious, but trees have branches and forks and the wood of the tree supports all of these huge stresses. Try to pick up even a fairly small green limb by the very butt of the limb one handed to illustrate this. There are literally tons of force put on the tree by limbs and forks. A piece of straight grained wood may be under tremendous stress and here is something to note, the stress isn't evenly distributed throughout the wood. When we cut wood we aren't stressing the wood causing it to warp, we are stress relieving it. Then the wood that had stress in it to counter the stress in the other direction from wood we cut away pulls in the direction of the remaining stress.
Cue builders often turn shafts in a dozen small turnings or more to deal with this but are sometimes a bit more casual turning butts and cutting and splicing them together. The remaining stresses can cause grief. Stresses that there aren't any indication whatsoever of in the shop can show up when the moisture content in the wood moves back and forth too. Despite all of the care taken with wood there is a certain amount of luck involved as to if it warps or not. I suspect if you tested six more used cues from the builder whose cue remained perfect that half or more would be slightly warped.
I got some one by six cypress boards from the walls of an old home years ago. The home was over a hundred years old so I can safely say this board was that old. The board was straight and straight grained. I needed it an inch narrower so I started ripping an inch off of the board. The inch wide piece immediately started down and curling to the right, very badly almost like a metal shaving off of a lathe! The other piece bowed up and to the left but not nearly as badly. With the wood coming from a vertical wall where it had served as sheathing there wasn't any significant stress on it for the hundred years it had been part of a home. The only possible conclusion is that the wood had maintained that stress throughout the normal aging process that wood once received, far more effective than the typical kiln drying process in my opinion, and for over a hundred years in the wall.
Wood, ivory, all things that have grown naturally were once part of a whole. They were in balance stresswise as a whole. When we receive little pieces of that whole they may look perfect, may behave perfectly while in our possession, but have stresses that show up long term.
Of course it is also possible to put new stresses in wood in use and storage but for now I'm ignoring that possibility concerning these cues. Why one survived the journey perfectly straight and the others didn't is somewhat a matter of luck regardless of how much care a cue builder takes. Remember the story about my shafts too, the perfect cue might only be perfect at the moment and may have been warped worse than some of the others in the past or may be warped worse in a few months.
Edwin Reyes was a master cue builder in the Philippines. He stored the wood for cues to be used in the Philippines and similar areas in one place and stored the wood for cues to be used in America and Europe in a special climate controlled storage area matching the conditions the completed cues would be in. This way he cut the wood when it was in the same state that the climate it was going to be in later caused it to be in. Few cues if any are 100% sealed against moisture. Even though they may be completely covered with various things to seal them, most sealers and finishes do not 100% block moisture.
Everyone that works with wood gets some surprises now and then, some large some small. Until we can look at a few boards or turning squares and know what the rest of the tree looked like and from where in the tree this wood came from that is just the way it is going to be. There are many things we can do to minimize the risk of wood warping, nothing we can do to absolutely prevent it.
Hu
LOL...You don't need sighting down the shaft, rails, rollers, lathes, or anything else. You can find out all you need to know by simply rolling the cue on the pool table. If you don't see anything there... the cue is straight enough for you. If your cue is not winding up where you want it, it's you, not the cue.
Who knows? Perhaps the 2 cues were built in Florida and the wood in the cues were "at home" when tested. Comfortable with the Florida climate.