Texas BCAPL State Tournament - Harker Heights, Tx 12-15 Mar 2009

[ne14tennis]

Just Saying

I understand that the players have some accountability in relation to knowing the rules and learning the rules book they are given...

However, this is a pretty unconventional situation where because of the score, etc. emotions are running high...

It seems a little unrealistic to expect players to know / remember an obscure ruling that covers this contingency...

Maybe the referee should have pointed the options out or maybe, just maybe, the soul devoid humanoid that perpetrated the foul should have done the right thing and admitted it...

Time for more blood pressure medicine...!!

Believe me Jeff, in no way am I saying that your team should have known or it was their fault. I was just indicating that having the knowledge in that book could have given you several more options.

1. Confront player - player refuses to man up
2. Call for referee, if player continues shooting after you requested a referee, there are consequences
3. Referee says he wasn't there and can't make the call - point to the rule book
4. Referee refuses to change decision in #3 above - call for the Head Ref/TD

It's a rotten deal you got sir.

 

[14-1StraightMan]

It was 100% a Foul

My Teammates & I were sitting waiting to play the winning Team. I was sitting right in line with the corner pocket where the player was shooting the 7 ball. When he took the shot. The cue ball hit the 8 ball first and then hit the 7. The 7 went right in. There is no doubt what happened. I wish that a ref was watching.

 

[Bigtruck]

My Teammates & I were sitting waiting to play the winning Team. I was sitting right in line with the corner pocket where the player was shooting the 7 ball. When he took the shot. The cue ball hit the 8 ball first and then hit the 7. The 7 went right in. There is no doubt what happened. I wish that a ref was watching.

It was already posted earlier, but I'll say it again. Just for you.

The ref had the option to poll the gallery for input. He chose not to and then there was no protest.

I really understand how things can get crazy in that situation, but right IS right. I would have had a hard time accepting that this guy was just gonna get away with it.Naturally.

I had a ref make an obvious wrong call on me on the 2004 BCA State Tourney. I went all the way to event director. no one would overturn or even attempt to overturn the ref's decision. The entire gallery saw it too!

Oblidee Oblidah life goes on.........IMO

Ray.

 

[ne14tennis]

Apples and Oranges

It was already posted earlier, but I'll say it again. Just for you.

The ref had the option to poll the gallery for input. He chose not to and then there was no protest.

I really understand how things can get crazy in that situation, but right IS right. I would have had a hard time accepting that this guy was just gonna get away with it.Naturally.

I had a ref make an obvious wrong call on me on the 2004 BCA State Tourney. I went all the way to event director. no one would overturn or even attempt to overturn the ref's decision. The entire gallery saw it too!

Oblidee Oblidah life goes on.........IMO



Ray.

That's a different situation my friend.

In the case of what happened to Jeff's team there were options since the referee was not present.

When a referee was present 100% of the time the call will stand if it was a judgement call.

We get training in situations like close hits. We look for which ball moves first, we listen and most importantly we take into account how the ball will move based on which ball is hit first.

When I come to the table I look at the position of the balls and determine which way the opponents ball will move if it's hit first, then as I watch the shot I dertermine which way the cue ball will come off depending on a good hit/bad hit. So i have 3 other methods if i can't clearly see which was hit first.

Referees try their best but we are human and do make mistakes

 

[Bigtruck]

That's a different situation my friend.

In the case of what happened to Jeff's team there were options since the referee was not present.

When a referee was present 100% of the time the call will stand if it was a judgement call.

We get training in situations like close hits. We look for which ball moves first, we listen and most importantly we take into account how the ball will move based on which ball is hit first.

When I come to the table I look at the position of the balls and determine which way the opponents ball will move if it's hit first, then as I watch the shot I dertermine which way the cue ball will come off depending on a good hit/bad hit. So i have 3 other methods if i can't clearly see which was hit first.

Referees try their best but we are human and do make mistakes

Yeah, I know. It was the same thing except the referee was there "allegedly"watching. LOL. I would've been better off if the ref wasn't there. It's a tough job, being a referee. You are expected to be right 100% of the time. Fact is.....you guys are human too. :shocked:

Ray

 

[McKinneyMiner]

Steve is an excellent referee...

He called a shot in my singles match and did everything properly...

He asked for my explanation of what I was attempting, got into an unobtrusive position and, most importantly, stated, "Ready when you are."

That statement alone gives me a lot of confidence that the correct call will be made.

The referee is in the position he needs to be and has acknowledged that he is ready to watch.

Thanks Steve...

 

[McKinneyMiner]

I did want to reiterate again that this particular incident isn't really about rules and referees...

It should never have come to any of that...

The shot was clearly a foul. No doubt about it.

The subsequent argument and bad feelings stem entirely from a player not owning up to something he KNOWS he did.

Our team drove as far as they did to get to this tournament, we invested as much money, energy and emotion as they did.

To lose like that is really disappointing. I personally think it is very disrespectful to behave like that in competition. You are stating to the world that your competitive experience is more important than your opponents' and that your need (not desire or wish) to win trumps all else.

I just like to believe that win or lose I am playing the same general ethical game as my opponent.

That apparently wasn't the case here...

 

[ne14tennis]

Thanks

Steve is an excellent referee...

He called a shot in my singles match and did everything properly...

He asked for my explanation of what I was attempting, got into an unobtrusive position and, most importantly, stated, "Ready when you are."

That statement alone gives me a lot of confidence that the correct call will be made.

The referee is in the position he needs to be and has acknowledged that he is ready to watch.

Thanks Steve...

I appreciate the comments. Just trying to do the job they ask of me as fairly and professionally as possible.

 

[9Ball_JJ]

Congrats to Juan!!! I heard you make only one mistake in the whole match again Jason Bacon. That's awesome. Now you're the MASTER. OK now I should call you Master Juan. LOL!

Thanks Sang!! That match against Jason was a great match to watch some good safety battles. It was also really cool that so many of my friends from Dallas got to see that match and cheer me on.

I guess I should be calling you Master Dragon Cue as well, huh?

 

[ne14tennis]

The thing I don't like

I did want to reiterate again that this particular incident isn't really about rules and referees...

It should never have come to any of that...

The shot was clearly a foul. No doubt about it.

The subsequent argument and bad feelings stem entirely from a player not owning up to something he KNOWS he did.

Our team drove as far as they did to get to this tournament, we invested as much money, energy and emotion as they did.

To lose like that is really disappointing. I personally think it is very disrespectful to behave like that in competition. You are stating to the world that your competitive experience is more important than your opponents' and that your need (not desire or wish) to win trumps all else.

I just like to believe that win or lose I am playing the same general ethical game as my opponent.

That apparently wasn't the case here...

As a referee I am obligated to enforce the rules as they are written.

One of the things that always irritates me (But I still enforce it) is the dress code violation. The dress code is there for a reason...obviously.

There was an incident during Ladies Teams that was brought up to one of the referees and relayed to me later.

One of the girls who wears very high heeled shoes (Do I need to mention the name) was playing in a match. Her pants almost drag on the floor and her shoes are hard to see except for the heels. Apparently it was noticed that she had on black socks and this pair of shoes had an open toe.

Someone approached said referee and complained about her "Open toe" shoes while she was playing.

Come on people....beat them with your stick.

The dress code is there to prevent a tournament from looking like a beach party.

However if you have a protest of a dress code violation, don't wait until the match is more than half done and you're getting your butt waxed to mention it.

 

[Bigtruck]

Lol

As a referee I am obligated to enforce the rules as they are written.

One of the things that always irritates me (But I still enforce it) is the dress code violation. The dress code is there for a reason...obviously.

There was an incident during Ladies Teams that was brought up to one of the referees and relayed to me later.

One of the girls who wears very high heeled shoes (Do I need to mention the name) was playing in a match. Her pants almost drag on the floor and her shoes are hard to see except for the heels. Apparently it was noticed that she had on black socks and this pair of shoes had an open toe.

Someone approached said referee and complained about her "Open toe" shoes while she was playing.

Come on people....beat them with your stick.

The dress code is there to prevent a tournament from looking like a beach party.

However if you have a protest of a dress code violation, don't wait until the match is more than half done and you're getting your butt waxed to mention it.

That's funny Steve! and SOoooo true! LOL

I find it funny(peculiar) how the "rule book" throwers/technicality people seem to come out more in a league event.

I have been competing in $50+ entry events for several years and I must say.....the players in that level of play ARE, for the most part, extremely professional, courteous and good sports.

This "technicality" stuff is more like $5 weekly tournament players that "never leave the streets".

Thanks for sharing that Steve. It's nice to be reminded that the referees are people too!

Ray

 

[Papa Red]

Team Play

After all the post and the dust has settled a little, I must say I blame the whole team as much as the player involved. Some off them apologized noting the foul, but accepted the win as a legitimate win therefor placing themselves in the same category as the cheater.

I know my teams character, and if I had made that shot and stood up saying it was good, they would have conceded the match and cut me from the team. Not to mention all the friend I would loose showing what type person I am.

 

[akaTrigger]

After all the post and the dust has settled a little, I must say I blame the whole team as much as the player involved. Some off them apologized noting the foul, but accepted the win as a legitimate win therefor placing themselves in the same category as the cheater.

I know my teams character, and if I had made that shot and stood up saying it was good, they would have conceded the match and cut me from the team. Not to mention all the friend I would loose showing what type person I am.

Since the ref didn't ask the audience, the teammates aren't suppose to say anything, even if they think it was bad.

When I heard about this Sunday morning, my first question was, "did the ref poll the audience?" And I was told, "the ref said the rule says it goes to the shooter if no ref is there." I was stunned, but I also know if the ref knew that rule (to poll the audience), he would have. Although I can't figure out how long the discussion went on between the ref and the two players, it is a good point that the players need to know the rules, also. I admit I didn't know I could raise an issue to the TD if 'needed.' Thanks for the info, Steve!

The whole thing is unfortunate. But, the guy is going to have to live with what he did. Eeeek. Whether he really thought it was a good hit or not, afterwords I'm sure his teammates told him it was bad.

 

[ne14tennis]

Need The View

Jeff, sorry to hear what's happened to your team. That's just messed up. Some people just want to win at all costs.

My team was not too happy about our loss neither. The other team didn't cheat us, but they started sharking us from the beginning to the end of our match. They did things such as "that's my chalk." even though it was not, "is that a good shot?" when it was obvious that it was. When the score was 11-12 us & the tension was really high between the two teams, I called the ref, Bob, over to watch the match, they made fun of him. I asked Bob to stay to watch the match, but he said he had to go back to his station. I still don't understand what that meant. I knew there were only three refs for the entire event, but I felt he should have stayed. We lost 13-12.

Congrats to Juan!!! I heard you make only one mistake in the whole match again Jason Bacon. That's awesome. Now you're the MASTER. OK now I should call you Master Juan. LOL!

What he meant (I'm speculating based on my thoughts in the situation) is we normally have places we sit (The stage, or in the middle of the table rows) in places that give us the best vantage point of the area we need to cover. If there is a request by a team to have a referee in the area due to harrassment or an accusation of coaching, etc., etc...we can stay in the area of a match. This would happen based on referee availability and coordination wthin the referees so that all areas are still covered.

 

[akaTrigger]

Thanks Sang!! That match against Jason was a great match to watch some good safety battles. It was also really cool that so many of my friends from Dallas got to see that match and cheer me on.

You deserve so much kudos for placing third, Juan!!! Congrat's!!!

 

[Dragon Cue]

It was fun

Aren't you also a Master...??

Thanks Sang!! That match against Jason was a great match to watch some good safety battles. It was also really cool that so many of my friends from Dallas got to see that match and cheer me on.

I guess I should be calling you Master Dragon Cue as well, huh?

I am, but I don't play like the real Masters tho. I probably will be the weakest Master in the Master event next year.

Juan, sorry I didn't get to watch much of any match. I seemed to have more action than the time to play. Fortunately, the Dragon's ATM card rested in peace last weekend. I came out ahead.

This is my first time attending this event. I just have to say it was like pool paradise to me. I had a lot of fun.

Although I didn't get to talk to you much, it was good to see you again, Amanda.

 

[McKinneyMiner]

One of the things that always irritates me (But I still enforce it) is the dress code violation. The dress code is there for a reason...obviously.

We had a hilarious conversation in our first team match about that...

The team we were playing was wearing, literally, five different shirts.

I told their captain that while our team wasn't going to say anything about it, that someone probably would.

He told me that this event didn't have a dress code and then proceeded to argue with one of his own teammates about whether there was a dress code.

We just said, "Look around the room."

The expression on his face was priceless when he realized that they were only team not in any kind of uniform...

 

[ne14tennis]

Hustl'in

We had a hilarious conversation in our first team match about that...

The team we were playing was wearing, literally, five different shirts.

I told their captain that while our team wasn't going to say anything about it, that someone probably would.

He told me that this event didn't have a dress code and then proceeded to argue with one of his own teammates about whether there was a dress code.

We just said, "Look around the room."

The expression on his face was priceless when he realized that they were only team not in any kind of uniform...

I know that Eric and Justin of the Hustlin' booth were grateful. When the TD allowed people to start buying up their gear for wear since there were no BCAPL Tournament shirts this year....they made a killing

 

[Stones]

I did want to reiterate again that this particular incident isn't really about rules and referees...

It should never have come to any of that...

The shot was clearly a foul. No doubt about it.

The subsequent argument and bad feelings stem entirely from a player not owning up to something he KNOWS he did.

Our team drove as far as they did to get to this tournament, we invested as much money, energy and emotion as they did.

To lose like that is really disappointing. I personally think it is very disrespectful to behave like that in competition. You are stating to the world that your competitive experience is more important than your opponents' and that your need (not desire or wish) to win trumps all else.

I just like to believe that win or lose I am playing the same general ethical game as my opponent.

That apparently wasn't the case here...

As a member of the opposing team, I only have one thing to say about the situation. As bluntly as possible, Your team got screwed, MM!!!!!!!!!

I felt bad when it happened and I feel bad NOW! It was a false win.

I will explain my part when the situation arose:

I was standing in front of our team's table which was about 20-25 feet away from the table the final game was being played on. When I saw the position Neil played to get on the 7 ball, I wondered if he had enough room to shoot the 7 clean past the 8 ball or with the 7 and the 4 ball locked up, I wondered if he could hit it fat and carom off the 4 ball in the corner and take the 8 out of play. I also thought it was a little strange that the opposing player did not call a ref into play as the balls were very close. But like I said, I was a fair distance from the table and couldn't see the layout that well.

What I did see next was a FLAGRANT FOUL on Neil's part. He clearly hit the 8 ball first and I turned to my team mates at our table and said, "He fouled. Look's like it's over." since the opposing player would have BIH with only two balls on the table.

I turned back to the table and was shocked to see Neil denying he fouled. Again, I was standing 20-25' away and it was clearly a foul. I told my team mates that I couldn't believe what I was seeing. After a little discussion between the two players, they called for a ref and Bob came into the situation.

Since our team's sitting table was right next to the stage, I saw Bull (TD) stand up and he asked me what happened. I explained that our player had clearly fouled and didn't understand what the discussion was about.

I expected Bull to intervene after my explanation but I guess he just let Bob do his job. Bob ruled in Neil's favor and at that point, I let the ruling stand which I felt very bad about.

I apologized to the entire OB team as we shook hands including you, MM.

As a TD myself, If an opposing player's teammate informed me it was a foul, the other player would have received BIH. At the least, I would have let the players replay that last game.

End of story:

I have now resigned from my team because of this situation and will not be joining them in Vegas this year.

I simply refuse to play with another player with these ethics as I have seen this same behavior in the past. Enough is enough!

Again, I openly apologize to the entire OB team.

Stones

 

[Bigtruck]

As a member of the opposing team, I only have one thing to say about the situation. As bluntly as possible, Your team got screwed, MM!!!!!!!!!

I felt bad when it happened and I feel bad NOW! It was a false win.

I will explain my part when the situation arose:

I was standing in front of our team's table which was about 20-25 feet away from table the final game was being played on. When I saw the position Neil played to get on the 7 ball, I wondered if he had enough room to shoot the 7 clean past the 8 ball or with the 7 and the 4 ball locked up, I wondered if he could hit it fat and carom off the 4 ball in the corner and take the 8 out of play. I also thought it was a little strange that the opposing player did not call a ref into play as the balls were very close. But like I said, I was a fair distance from the table and couldn't see the layout that well.

What I did see next was a FLAGRANT FOUL on Neil's part. He clearly hit the 8 ball first and I turned to my team mates at our table and said, "He fouled. Look's like it's over." since the opposing player would have BIH with only two balls on the table.

I turned back to the table and was shocked to see Neil denying he fouled. Again, I was standing 20-25' away and it was clearly a foul. I told my team mates that I couldn't believe what I was seeing. After a little discussion between the two players, they called for a ref and Bob came into the situation.

Since our team's sitting table was right next to the stage, I saw Bull (TD) stand up and he asked me what happened. I explained that our player had clearly fouled and didn't understand what the discussion was about.

I expected Bull to intervene after my explanation but I guess he just let Bob do his job. Bob ruled in Neil's favor and at that point, I let the ruling stand which I felt very bad about.

I apologized to the entire OB team as we shook hands including you, MM.

As a TD myself, If an opposing player's teammate informed me it was a foul, the other player would have received BIH. At the least, I would have let the players replay that last game.

End of story:

I have now resigned from my team because of this situation and will not be joining them in Vegas this year.

I simply refuse to play with another player with these ethics as I have seen this same behavior in the past. Enough is enough!

Again, I openly apologize to the entire OB team.

Stones

Thanks Paul!

Too bad Neil's not a member here, because I'd be warming up the RED truck right now!! LOL

Ray