The benefits of playing with a standard shaft?

[JimS]

Ever try using a low deflection regular shaft? I have three 11 mm tipped, regular, shafts that deflect less than a 314 or OB-1. And I have all the feel I need.

Flex

Hmmm. I'm currently playing with Sailor butt matched with a Z2 and it has a 3/8" ferrule.

I'm thinking, as an experiment, I'll have my cue maker cut down one of my Sailor shafts to 11 mm, with a pro taper, and put on a 3/8" ferrule. I like a small diameter tip/shaft anyway. Sounds like a plan.

Edit: Just called Steve Klapp and work begins tomorrow.

 

[Fuji-whopper]

I still don't see why people say Predator shafts hit dead, the ones I pick out hit great and very solid. There are dead hitting one piece shafts out there as well and a tube has more strength against bending than a solid rod anyways, so in essence it would be stiffer in the first 5" not more flexible.

If you don't pick good wood (he he) you won't have a good hitting shaft, regardless of what you do to it at that point.

 

[dr_dave]

pros and cons of low-squirt shafts

I know lot of people prefer standard shafts to low deflection ones, but I wanted to ask here on AZ to get some opinions from you folks as to why that's the case.

FYI, I have a good summary of pros and cons of low-squirt shafts, with links to many more resources, here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt
​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

a tube has more strength against bending than a solid rod

... of the same weight, but not of the same size.

A solid rod is a tube with its hole filled - you can't weaken a rod by filling it.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

unknown pro:
If I want to deflect my cueball 1/2 ball width, having 10% or 20% less deflection does not necessarilly make that easier.

Me:
Why would you want to do that?

unknownpro:
Because I'm using side english.

I mean why would you need to deflect your cueball 1/2 ball width? It would be more accurate to use a lower squirt cue and just aim it 1/2 ball width over.

pj
chgo

 

[BRKNRUN]

I mean why would you need to deflect your cueball 1/2 ball width? It would be more accurate to use a lower squirt cue and just aim it 1/2 ball width over.

pj
chgo

There is a shot that comes to mind that deflection helps quite a bit.

If you have a ball partially blocking your CB and you need to do a bit of masse swerve around the ball and hit an OB...knowing the ball is ging to deflect out and then swerve back helps pull of that shot...

If I try that with a LD shaft it hits the blocking ball every time.

I am sure you can adjust your aim with the LD shaft and aim away from hitting the blocking ball, but for me it is much easier to execute if I know the shaft is going to automatically deflect the ball on a path away from hitting the blocking ball.

It is a low percentage shot, but I have pulled off this type shot and actually mad the ball on occaision.

Probably just another example of personal preference on how to execute a shot.

 

[Fuji-whopper]

... of the same weight, but not of the same size.

A solid rod is a tube with its hole filled - you can't weaken a rod by filling it.

pj
chgo

You have me intrigued, a rod will bend easier when hollow than if you fill the hole completely right? I keep thinking of a PVC tube and rod, the rod will bend if it becomes long enough but a similar length tube will not bend nearly as much.

Now I guess the part that I don't really get is how much will it bend if you fill in the hole, how much you fill in and what you fill it with. Would it bend easier or not and how would that affect how it plays in regards to hit and performance.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There is a shot that comes to mind that deflection helps quite a bit.

If you have a ball partially blocking your CB and you need to do a bit of masse swerve around the ball and hit an OB...knowing the ball is ging to deflect out and then swerve back helps pull of that shot...

If I try that with a LD shaft it hits the blocking ball every time.

I am sure you can adjust your aim with the LD shaft and aim away from hitting the blocking ball, but for me it is much easier to execute if I know the shaft is going to automatically deflect the ball on a path away from hitting the blocking ball.

It is a low percentage shot, but I have pulled off this type shot and actually mad the ball on occaision.

Probably just another example of personal preference on how to execute a shot.

My guess is that you're more used to doing it that way because that's the kind of shaft you play with. I bet you could easily get used to the slight aim adjustment and even learn to make even more difficult masse shots - especially if you practice aiming masse shots with the "Coriolis technique". Learning and practicing that has really expanded my masse toolbox.

Here's Dr. Dave's article explaining the Coriolis technique for aiming masse shots:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2005/nov05.pdf

pj
chgo

 

[grindz]

Ok change of subject. Please don't kill me. This one's for you axe. My spare car is a 1964 Volvo B18 Coupe. It runs great! With the original paint job, so it looks weathered and old. I like it that way.

The other day I was driving on the 405 Freeway in West Los Angeles. All around me were Mercedes', BMW's, Lexus' and big SUV's. I looked all around the freeway for a couple of minutes, and I realized I was driving the oldest car on the road. You know what? That made me very happy!

End of story. Thanks.

That must be why I can't stop shooting with my JW after over 25 years! Or, maybe why I can listen to all these young "whippersnappers" and just laugh.

td

td

 

[unknownpro]

I mean why would you need to deflect your cueball 1/2 ball width? It would be more accurate to use a lower squirt cue and just aim it 1/2 ball width over.

pj
chgo

I disagree.

Even if you had a zero deflection shaft you would still have to curve the cueball to make the shot by aiming at the center of the ghostball while hitting the side of the cueball.

Nobody ever answered my question of what is the maximum deflection possible without miscueing with any type of normal cue playing on a frictionless surface. Does anybody know for any cue or any specific cue?

 

[dr_dave]

typical maximum squirt amount

Nobody ever answered my question of what is the maximum deflection possible without miscueing with any type of normal cue playing on a frictionless surface. Does anybody know for any cue or any specific cue?

I thought I answered that already (although it might have been in a different thread). From the data in my September '07 article, the squirt amount for a maximum offset (100% English) shot, with a typical "regular-squirt" playing cue, is:

about 2.5 degrees =
about 1 inch over 2 feet =
about 5 inches over full length of a 9 foot table
​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I mean why would you need to deflect your cueball 1/2 ball width? It would be more accurate to use a lower squirt cue and just aim it 1/2 ball width over.

pj
chgo

unknownpro:

I disagree.

Even if you had a zero deflection shaft you would still have to curve the cueball to make the shot by aiming at the center of the ghostball while hitting the side of the cueball.

You don't have to aim at the center of the ghostball to make the CB curve. If it doesn't squirt sideways you just aim it sideways. It will curve back whether it squirts or not. Squirt and swerve are separate effects; one doesn't need the other.

pj
chgo

 

[JimS]

I like a very crisp feel and sound when I strike the cb. I couldn't get that with the ob1 I had, no matter what I did with it.

I got a Z2 and put a Talisman Xhard tip on it and get the sound, feel and action I was looking for with the lowest rated defelction. I'm happy..... but... the purist in me wants to play with a cue maker made shaft so I'm having my Sailor shaft cut down to 11mm and a 3/8" ferrule with a Moori Quick tip.

 

[unknownpro]

I thought I answered that already (although it might have been in a different thread). From the data in my September '07 article, the squirt amount for a maximum offset (100% English) shot, with a typical "regular-squirt" playing cue, is:

about 2.5 degrees =
about 1 inch over 2 feet =
about 5 inches over full length of a 9 foot table
​

Regards,
Dave

Thanks... I probably just didn't see the answer. Is that for real cloth, or is that for ice?

 

[unknownpro]

You don't have to aim at the center of the ghostball to make the CB curve. If it doesn't squirt sideways you just aim it sideways. It will curve back whether it squirts or not. Squirt and swerve are separate effects; one doesn't need the other.

pj
chgo

You said adjust the aim back 1/2 ball, which would put me shooting through the side of the cueball straight at the center of the ghostball, since I was originally aiming at the edge of the ghostball.

 

[okinawa77]

I know lot of people prefer standard shafts to low deflection ones, but I wanted to ask here on AZ to get some opinions from you folks as to why that's the case.
Robb Saez tried a predator for 6 months but didn't like it, and I know some other really good players don't like them either. Corey Harper told me that there are some shots he can make with a regular shaft that he can't make with a low deflection one.

How many of you guys have tried a low deflection and went back because you felt that it wasn't good for your game?

I tried to read through all the posts because I don't want to just repeat something, someone else said....but I couldn't get through them all.
So, here's my response....
First of all, to answer your question.... I have tried an LD and switched back to a regular shaft, and...at that time, I felt I could not get as much draw and follow with the LD, but I felt that the accuracy when using center ball was much better than a regular shaft. So, I was in a little bit of a dilemma.
I got real busy with work/travel, and didn't want to lug my cues around. So, I played with house cues. I learned how to assess the performance of each cue and adapt to that performance. Similiar to assessing each table and adapting to it's performance.
Well I later went back to the LD, and have found that I can get as much action with it as the regular shaft.

I think the reason most players that try an LD and go back to regular, is because they can't or aren't willing to adapt to the difference in performance.

Currently, I play with a Hightower cue w/ it's regular shaft. My back up cue is a J.W. Petree w/ OB1 shaft.
I can play just as well with either one.

 

[ratcues]

The whole idea behind a LD shaft is to shorten the learning curve when adjusting to deflection and have consistency from shaft to shaft, no matter what kind of butt you have. Predator, OB1, Tiger X, etc... all do what they say they do and are good products but.....

Every shaft has deflection.
Every shaft is unique.
You will need to learn how to aim.
LD shafts are not magic wands.
You still need to practice.
You still need a stroke.

"if you are not good enough without it, you will never be good enough with it"

 

[JimS]

The whole idea behind a LD shaft is to shorten the learning curve when adjusting to deflection and have consistency from shaft to shaft, no matter what kind of butt you have. Predator, OB1, Tiger X, etc... all do what they say they do and are good products but.....

Every shaft has deflection.
Every shaft is unique.
You will need to learn how to aim.
LD shafts are not magic wands.
You still need to practice.
You still need a stroke.

"if you are not good enough without it, you will never be good enough with it"

Tap Tap Tap. Now THERE is a good post. My vote for post of the year.

I have a Sailor shaft that Rat Cues altered for me making it a ferrule-less cue with the tip at 11.3. I forgot I had it until this morning. I got it out and I can't tell the difference between hitting it and the Z2 ... except that the Sailor shaft is as pro taper and that felt different, maybe better.

Having fun experimenting.

 

[dr_dave]

ice = squirt with no swerve

I thought I answered that already (although it might have been in a different thread). From the data in my September '07 article, the squirt amount for a maximum offset (100% English) shot, with a typical "regular-squirt" playing cue, is:

about 2.5 degrees =
about 1 inch over 2 feet =
about 5 inches over full length of a 9 foot table

Thanks... I probably just didn't see the answer. Is that for real cloth, or is that for ice?

Squirt does not depend on the cloth. You seem to be referring to "effective squirt" or "squerve," which also accounts for swerve. Swerve depends on cloth and ball conditions, shot speed, cue elevation, amount and type of English, and distance to the object ball. My numbers above are squirt alone, assuming there is no swerve (e.g., as with a fast shot on a slick cloth with minimal cue elevation). So I guess the short answer to your question is: ice.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You said adjust the aim back 1/2 ball, which would put me shooting through the side of the cueball straight at the center of the ghostball, since I was originally aiming at the edge of the ghostball.

It doesn't really matter who said what. My point has been that you don't need squirt to make the cueball go in the initial direction you want - with a squirtless cue you could just aim it there.

pj
chgo