"The Big Ban"

[phillyslim99]

Here's a question...

Okay, so here's a serious question for all...

Let's say that I invent a "computer cue" where you can easily input a layout after the break, and it will provide the "proper" (1) english, (2) angle, and (3) position to execute for the remaining balls. You are still responsible for (a) Stroke and (b) table speed. Would you want this product?

My answer would be an emphatic "NO!", and most people (I assume) would have the same reaction. Why? Because it diminishes the abilities and knowledge that you have gained over months, years, decades of practice by providing them to any idiot who plays for 15 minutes. Believe it or not, easier is NOT always better, for this reason.

Why is a phenolic tip any better than a "computer cue"? Its PATHETIC to watch someone who has no interest in learning the complexities of certain skills, so they just buy a product to eliminate them. "Golly gee, maybe I'll have a cue someday that will shoot the balls for me and I can watch "Macgyver" reruns while it plays pool"

Mike, It seems that your intent is to start some underground movement of AZB'ers against the BCA decision. It seems that you show little respect to the BCA (as a decision-making body) by basically saying "they are out to get me for no reason". This is the TRUE detriment to the game, and I can speak for myself in saying that you have lost at least one customer from your current and future products due to this post.:frown:

 

[btoneill]

Mike, It seems that your intent is to start some underground movement of AZB'ers against the BCA decision. It seems that you show little respect to the BCA (as a decision-making body) by basically saying "they are out to get me for no reason".

Once again, this is a BCA Pool League rule, not a BCA (Billiard Congress of America) rule. The two bodies are no longer related.

Brian

 

[chicagomike]

If the lesser player can jump it doent mean they are going to pot the ball. Everyone makes it sound like there is no skill involved in jumping with a phenolic tip. You still need good fundamentals, good stroke and good hand speed. If your worried about them jumping than play a better safe. I am curious on what the pros think about it. I know Strickland is against it. Mind you only a few people can jump full cue with a leather tip well. Earl Strickland and Corey Dueul are the only guys I have seen do it.

That's because there really is no skill involved in jumping a ball with a phenolic tip. You really don't need good anything, except for a good phenolic tip. If you're good enough to break the balls you're good enough to jump a ball with a phenolic tip.

It cracks me up when everyone claps for the jumpshot with the phenolic tip...they should be clapping for the safety that put the opponent there in the first place. The only cue that should be allowed is the playing cue...i'm not in favor of phenolic tip break cues either.

Please just learn to play the game and quit relying on gimmicks to get you there...Just my humble opinion

 

[snipershot]

Go to youtube.com and type in the search "billiard club network"

excellent matches with great commentary. Enjoy.

P.S. One day they will figure out how to make the game better for tv and it will make a comeback.

Thats not cool though, right now I got Resevoir Dogs playing on my 61" tv, while im on here typing and reading this on my 11.6" netbook. So you see, Id much rather it be on ESPN instead of youtube. I have watched some pool on my computer before, but I like it on my tv WAY better.


Joe

 

[JAW725]

Yes it is a much a piss off to me as to you, I don't even own a jump cue and If I'm a inch or two away from the impeding ball I kick. You leave me a hand span maybe a little shorter to say 5" without being jacked up into the ceiling I will jump the ball with my custom Phillippi right up your arse. All my friends s**t bricks when I do this....OMFG he just jumped with his playing cue! WTF, all the time people spend on their crappy game and they cant take an hour to learn to jump? If you can't jump with a playing cue then its not jumpable....jump cues are for kitty kats and artistic pool. I agree with you 200% almost gets me furious like Earl and I agree with his bantering alot too. It's a dam shame to just put that into peoples hands because it detracts from the game and even more so from them learning to play properly.

Its as bad as when someone wants to learn to bank, so you teach the little 4spd to bank and now they want to bank straight in shots....IDOITS. Not to mention I have much more control of the ball with the full sized cue. My best buddy grabbed it yesterday and jacked WAY up to jump a ball a foot away I said dude your WAY too high up your gonna draw the ball after. So BAM he shoots and cue jumps a foot up and smacks the one in the corner and the ball draws two rails! FROM A FULL CUE....all you midgets out there go back to your day job become a man and sell that pig pole for firewood, buy a nice cue and learn how to use it properly and to its fullest capability.
Learn to kick, learn to jump and go have a coke and a smile.

Grey Ghost

Seriously...Midgets??? Anyways, there are players who have accepted jump cues in the game of pool who can "properly" use a cue far beyond what your capable of, they don't seem to have a problem. These players can kick too, there pros.

 

[JAW725]

Okay, so here's a serious question for all...

Let's say that I invent a "computer cue" where you can easily input a layout after the break, and it will provide the "proper" (1) english, (2) angle, and (3) position to execute for the remaining balls. You are still responsible for (a) Stroke and (b) table speed. Would you want this product?

My answer would be an emphatic "NO!", and most people (I assume) would have the same reaction. Why? Because it diminishes the abilities and knowledge that you have gained over months, years, decades of practice by providing them to any idiot who plays for 15 minutes. Believe it or not, easier is NOT always better, for this reason.

Why is a phenolic tip any better than a "computer cue"? Its PATHETIC to watch someone who has no interest in learning the complexities of certain skills, so they just buy a product to eliminate them. "Golly gee, maybe I'll have a cue someday that will shoot the balls for me and I can watch "Macgyver" reruns while it plays pool"

Mike, It seems that your intent is to start some underground movement of AZB'ers against the BCA decision. It seems that you show little respect to the BCA (as a decision-making body) by basically saying "they are out to get me for no reason". This is the TRUE detriment to the game, and I can speak for myself in saying that you have lost at least one customer from your current and future products due to this post.:frown:[/QUO

So beginners and/or players with less knowledge then you are idiots? Pros have months, years, decades of practice and they still use jump cues! What is your argument really? If there is any voice of authority to represent the game of pool from a players stand point it should be Pro Players, not you - no offence. I definitely believe it's ridiculous to call any "group" of pool player names because you don't agree with their approach, which happens to be completely legal in the highest of competition.

 

[phillyslim99]

So beginners and/or players with less knowledge then you are idiots? Pros have months, years, decades of practice and they still use jump cues! What is your argument really? If there is any voice of authority to represent the game of pool from a players stand point it should be Pro Players, not you - no offence. I definitely believe it's ridiculous to call any "group" of pool player names because you don't agree with their approach, which happens to be completely legal in the highest of competition.[/QUOTE]

Jaw725,

First, I didn't say "lesser players are idiots" - I said that "idiots" are those who don't want to learn elements of the game, so they "purchase" a novelty product to avoid any effort whatsoever (and in the process, corrupt the legitimacy of the game itself).

Second, I would love to hear your extensive knowledge about my game from Canada. Perhaps I AM "Pro or Pro Caliber", but I would like you to inform me of that...given that, to my knowledge, I've never spoken to you.

Third, you should re-read the topic. The underlying topic is "whether or not the tips SHOULD be allowed". Perhaps the stupidest - "no offense" - of your comments is "they should be legal because it is legal now". Hmm...good logic, buddy. No offense though.

 

[Luxury]

Thats not cool though, right now I got Resevoir Dogs playing on my 61" tv, while im on here typing and reading this on my 11.6" netbook. So you see, Id much rather it be on ESPN instead of youtube. I have watched some pool on my computer before, but I like it on my tv WAY better.


Joe

I have my computer hooked up to a big screen plasma tv. Makes for a great moniter. I watch pool on the big screen all the time.

 

[gulyassy]

Mike G. has the ban on phenolic tips made an adverse impact on the sales of your jump break cues? The BCA pool league is just one of the amature leagues and the ban from what I can read only applies on a National or State level unless your local league enforces it also. This seems like a small slice of the total pool players out there.

no impact on sales at all. My new cue is absolutely the best on the market.
If you haven't tried one, you'll never know what your missing. This is not about sales but about a statement made that my material causes damage to cue balls made by the BCA league. This statement affects a large percentage of players in the US. If they are going to ban phenolic then ban it. I was a pioneer of break jump cues. I always had new type cues to preform these dedicated shots. I invented the "It's George Jump Cue" back in the 80's. I had a break jump cue called the "Elephant Gun" in the 90's, all with leather tips and they worked very well. Then the Sledgehammer type with the ferrule/tip sold more cues than any other cue in the history of pool. I believe I had an impact on this sport. Now I have Shaft Freeze and a shaft that doesn't turn blue. If they ban phenolic I will still be here.
I have several new products coming soon. The statement is my problem, my material does not damage balls.

 

[macguy]

no impact on sales at all. My new cue is absolutely the best on the market.
If you haven't tried one, you'll never know what your missing. This is not about sales but about a statement made that my material causes damage to cue balls made by the BCA league. This statement affects a large percentage of players in the US. If they are going to ban phenolic then ban it. I was a pioneer of break jump cues. I always had new type cues to preform these dedicated shots. I invented the "It's George Jump Cue" back in the 80's. I had a break jump cue called the "Elephant Gun" in the 90's, all with leather tips and they worked very well. Then the Sledgehammer type with the ferrule/tip sold more cues than any other cue in the history of pool. I believe I had an impact on this sport. Now I have Shaft Freeze and a shaft that doesn't turn blue. If they ban phenolic I will still be here.
I have several new products coming soon. The statement is my problem, my material does not damage balls.

It they wanted to ban all but leather tips they should have just done so. They didn't even need a reason. Instead they came up with a lame excuse thus maligning all the phenolic tips and makers on the market. I believe they owe it to the industry to issue a statement to the effect:,

"Our choice to ban phenolic tips on break cues was strictly our own and for our own reasons. Although there was some evidences some cue balls may have been damaged, we can not say with any certainty it was due to phenolic tips".

What they did was very dishonest and they did not serve the billiard industry in any positive way with their knee jerk response. They owe an apology to all the manufactures they have impacted in a negative way. I believe you should in the least demand that of them. If they have any class they will do it right away. There is no doubt they lied to the public and didn't really know what they were talking about.

IE. Today it rained. I woke up with a head ache. Rain causes head aches. Or did my head ache cause the rain? Am I a God?

 

[macguy]

It they wanted to ban all but leather tips they should have just done so. They didn't even need a reason. Instead they came up with a lame excuse thus maligning all the phenolic tips and makers on the market. I believe they owe it to the industry to issue a statement to the effect:,

"Our choice to ban phenolic tips on break cues was strictly our own and for our own reasons. Although there was some evidences some cue balls may have been damaged, we can not say with any certainty it was due to phenolic tips".

What they did was very dishonest and they did not serve the billiard industry in any positive way with their knee jerk response. They owe an apology to all the manufactures they have impacted in a negative way. I believe you should in the least demand that of them. If they have any class they will do it right away. There is no doubt they lied to the public and didn't really know what they were talking about.

IE. Today it rained. I woke up with a head ache. Rain causes head aches. Or did my head ache cause the rain? Am I a God?

I came back to add, they also give the impression that all non leather tips are an incredibility hard phenolic of some kind. When in fact some synthetic tips, (A term I prefer) are not even as hard as some leather tips. Not to mention some of the very hard leather tips have been impregnated with a resin in fact making then a sort of phenolic like material as well.
Bottom line they had no idea what they were talking about.

Do I think any tips ever damaged cue balls? Yes I do, but not for the reasons they said. I believe some tips as hard as g-10 may have, but again not due to the hardness but due to the way the tips are shaped. I believe the hard, sharp angular edge may have at times done damage to the cue balls. Some players break with completely flat tips. On a bad hit I can see the sharp forward edge doing damage.

 

[greyghost]

Okay, so here's a serious question for all...

Let's say that I invent a "computer cue" where you can easily input a layout after the break, and it will provide the "proper" (1) english, (2) angle, and (3) position to execute for the remaining balls. You are still responsible for (a) Stroke and (b) table speed. Would you want this product?

My answer would be an emphatic "NO!", and most people (I assume) would have the same reaction. Why? Because it diminishes the abilities and knowledge that you have gained over months, years, decades of practice by providing them to any idiot who plays for 15 minutes. Believe it or not, easier is NOT always better, for this reason.

Why is a phenolic tip any better than a "computer cue"? Its PATHETIC to watch someone who has no interest in learning the complexities of certain skills, so they just buy a product to eliminate them. "Golly gee, maybe I'll have a cue someday that will shoot the balls for me and I can watch "Macgyver" reruns while it plays pool"

Mike, It seems that your intent is to start some underground movement of AZB'ers against the BCA decision. It seems that you show little respect to the BCA (as a decision-making body) by basically saying "they are out to get me for no reason". This is the TRUE detriment to the game, and I can speak for myself in saying that you have lost at least one customer from your current and future products due to this post.:frown:

Well put brother,
G.G.

 

[greyghost]

Seriously...Midgets??? Anyways, there are players who have accepted jump cues in the game of pool who can "properly" use a cue far beyond what your capable of, they don't seem to have a problem. These players can kick too, there pros.

HUMMMM...and then theres this one player who outstrokes everyone, happens to be one of the best players to ever live, and has a never ending gear when its right, his name is Earl and he definitely has a problem with jump cues. And I doubt you want to get in the box to see what I'm not capable of apparantly.

G.G.

 

[JAW725]

HUMMMM...and then theres this one player who outstrokes everyone, happens to be one of the best players to ever live, and has a never ending gear when its right, his name is Earl and he definitely has a problem with jump cues. And I doubt you want to get in the box to see what I'm not capable of apparantly.

G.G.

No doubt Grey, you could be a strong player and I don't mind losing to a strong player. My point is there are pro players who have totally accepted the jump cue and they still kick and play safe, nothing has been compromised. Oh, I have seen Earl pull out a jumper in a match before! Yes I know he doesn't like them but I've seen it.

 

[jrt30004]

No doubt Grey, you could be a strong player and I don't mind losing to a strong player. My point is there are pro players who have totally accepted the jump cue and they still kick and play safe, nothing has been compromised. Oh, I have seen Earl pull out a jumper in a match before! Yes I know he doesn't like them but I've seen it.

i watched earl here in atlanta at mr. cues bust a nasty jump shot with his full on game cue and then proceed to berate the guy he was playing for using a jump cue. sweeeeeeet earl goodness:thumbup:

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

No doubt Grey, you could be a strong player and I don't mind losing to a strong player. My point is there are pro players who have totally accepted the jump cue and they still kick and play safe, nothing has been compromised. Oh, I have seen Earl pull out a jumper in a match before! Yes I know he doesn't like them but I've seen it.

Here would be a treat: Ban ALL non-pliable tips. If it cannot be bent or made to change shape, it's GONE. THEN, let's see if all those pro players go to the jump cue when the ball is 3" away from the blocker. If you think jumping is a skill, I have a challenge for you. Cut off the plastic tip off your jumper, and replace it with a pressed Le Pro tip. Shoot the same jump shots you could before, and see how many of them you have lost. I would fathom a guess to say you would lose 70% efficiency out of the box. To jump the way Earl can takes skill and a stroke. To jump with a phenolic tipped jump cue takes 2 minutes to explain, and 1 minute to learn.

 

[JAW725]

So beginners and/or players with less knowledge then you are idiots? Pros have months, years, decades of practice and they still use jump cues! What is your argument really? If there is any voice of authority to represent the game of pool from a players stand point it should be Pro Players, not you - no offence. I definitely believe it's ridiculous to call any "group" of pool player names because you don't agree with their approach, which happens to be completely legal in the highest of competition.

Jaw725,

First, I didn't say "lesser players are idiots" - I said that "idiots" are those who don't want to learn elements of the game, so they "purchase" a novelty product to avoid any effort whatsoever (and in the process, corrupt the legitimacy of the game itself).

Second, I would love to hear your extensive knowledge about my game from Canada. Perhaps I AM "Pro or Pro Caliber", but I would like you to inform me of that...given that, to my knowledge, I've never spoken to you.

Third, you should re-read the topic. The underlying topic is "whether or not the tips SHOULD be allowed". Perhaps the stupidest - "no offense" - of your comments is "they should be legal because it is legal now". Hmm...good logic, buddy. No offense though.[/QUOTE]

Well it looks like I indeed offended you and I appologize. I don't understand why you are getting so hostile regarding the jump stick, with underlined insults towards the players that use them. I don't think any player would avoid learning kicking and what not just to reach for a jumper, if that were the case they would just be cheating themselves and never become better players.

My logic is that many, many pros have accepted and integrated the jumpstick into their games while still kicking and playing safe, the legitimacy of the game itself has not been corrupted, come on. If a lesser player then yourself pots his way out of your safety with a jumper because he is better at it then kicking then so be it! Let it be.

Look, you may be a very high caliber player and I respect your game even though I have never spoken to you but you just sound bitter. If you're indeed a pro calibre player then you are a minority amongst your peers.

Take care

 

[snipershot]

Here would be a treat: Ban ALL non-pliable tips. If it cannot be bent or made to change shape, it's GONE. THEN, let's see if all those pro players go to the jump cue when the ball is 3" away from the blocker. If you think jumping is a skill, I have a challenge for you. Cut off the plastic tip off your jumper, and replace it with a pressed Le Pro tip. Shoot the same jump shots you could before, and see how many of them you have lost. I would fathom a guess to say you would lose 70% efficiency out of the box. To jump the way Earl can takes skill and a stroke. To jump with a phenolic tipped jump cue takes 2 minutes to explain, and 1 minute to learn.

The frog and tadpole jump cues by Robin Dodson use hard as hell WB tips, and I cant really tell much difference. They jump as good as any other jump cue with or without a "plastic" tip.


Joe

 

[JAW725]

i watched earl here in atlanta at mr. cues bust a nasty jump shot with his full on game cue and then proceed to berate the guy he was playing for using a jump cue. sweeeeeeet earl goodness:thumbup:

To berate any player is nonsense.

 

[Mark Griffin]

BCAPL and the phenolic tip ban

I just don't agree that we 'mislead' and were 'dishonest' in our decision. We did not come up with a lame excuse.

We did not get into 'jump cues tips' because the force is not there to damage the cue ball.

I do not want to argue with people over this. We try to 'kinda' follow the WPA model in our sport because we would like to see the sport grow in an organized fashion. The WPA rules state tip must be pliable etc.

Just because the WPA has elected to not enforce the rule - do not jump all over us. I would have liked to just ban everything but leather - but could not justify it from the damage perspective. Remember this only applies to break cues .

Bottom line is - if you think these 'hard tips' do no damage to the playing equipment, you are not well informed. And we do know what we are talking about. There are a lot of theories out there.

There is no 'ulterior motive' or 'conspiracy' here. Tips (on break cues) should be leather. Period.

My honest opinion is somewhere down the road, leather will be re-instated as the only tip material to be used. But I am not going to be the first to do that.

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League