The Biggest reason Lower level players can't improve ????

ChicagoRJ

EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
Gold Member
Silver Member
[
There is a reason all sports use their eyes to get their hands in the right position. Actually, I can't think of any sports that don't. Thus, pool is just like other sports. Why don't you shoot while looking at the wall if your hands do NOT follow you eyes.



Yes, you will. Unless you are aware of the phenomenon. You've been doing it unconsciously since you were a toddler. The very act of learning to eat with a spoon used the same traits of eye-and coordination.

Visual tracking, Visual discrimination, Gross motor skills, Fine motor skills and Motor planning, all developed at an early age that you use riding a motorcycle and when shooting pool, whether you want to admit it or not matters not to me, it's just a fact, it's just science. I didn't invent it, it just is.I'm not taking credit for the amazing human body.

I teach baseball hitting and fielding, I teach shooting weapons and I'm a master billiard instructor, and it's not all the different when you teach. You need the concentration and ability to laser focus on your target, no matter if that target is a 9 ball, a catchers glove or rifle target 100 yards away
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genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you, you explained things perfectly...

I just finished a very enjoyable Skype lesson with Gene primarily regarding his Perfect Aim program (mainly has to do with eye sighting), but also several other topics.

I believe Gene can help players of all levels, even advanced players, by analyzing and explaining how the dominant and non-dominant eyes sometimes work in tandem and help each other, but also sometimes fight each other and how we can use that knowledge to our advantage. He also shared several valuable ways to fine tune my aiming in several specific circumstances that frequently occur during play.

Given that Gene is a very advanced player, he is uniquely qualified to pass along a lot of helpful tips and techniques.

So I gained valuable knowledge in several areas. I have fairly solid fundamentals, so I don’t realistically expect any one thing to make a huge difference in my stroke or aim, but I do think that when all the individual bits of valuable information that Gene imparted is added together, it will enable me to make substantial improvements in my play.
Thanks Gene‼️


I

I

This is by far the best explanation ever about what this is and how it works.

Thank you and good luck with your game. :thumbup:
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Mike...Your continued ignorance and stubbornness is just one of the reasons why you personally will never improve. You've been doing the same things for decades, and despite having received instruction from a number of teachers, you still are stalled at first base. The eyes lead everything we do in pool...and your hand follows your eyes. That's a simple fact that you will never acknowledge!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

One of the most idiotic things i have ever had an instructor tell me is that the cue goes where the eyes go. I was told if you are driving a motorcycle down the road and you look over into the ditch that the motorcycle is going to end up in that ditch.

Now that idiotic stuff is about, well, the most idiotic stuff i think i have ever heard. I've rode Honda's, Yamaha's, and had three Harley-Davidson motorcycles. My motorcycle would stay right down the middle of the road.

Do you believe in this statement, that the cue goes where the eyes go???

r/DCP
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
Mike...Your continued ignorance and stubbornness is just one of the reasons why you personally will never improve. You've been doing the same things for decades, and despite having received instruction from a number of teachers, you still are stalled at first base. The eyes lead everything we do in pool...and your hand follows your eyes. That's a simple fact that you will never acknowledge!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Well sooner or later people will remember tid bits of information to improve your Pool game, sometimes it take decades to sink in, other times the skull is like dry soil water will take long time, like water trying to penetrate sun baked soil a very long time.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not sure I understand the "hands follow the eyes" thing.

I guess I'd like to hear a fuller explanation but with just the fortune cookie to go on I'd have to say it sounds kinda bogus.

Lou Figueroa
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
Just got done with a lesson on skype.

Thanks again Gene. It was a pleasure...

For all the active readers of this thread that like me doubt the value learning about / compensating for eye dominance, here is my honest and unsolicited review of my time spent with Gene this evening.

Please note, that I would be considered by most as an advanced amateur player, so the focus of the lesson centered mostly on identifying and gauging my eye dominance. Adjusting my fundamentals was not a consideration at any point. I also never doubted the phenomenon of eye dominance.

First off, it should be known that Gene is a pleasure to deal with, and very forth coming with his approach. There is no snake oil being offered for sale.

He has his own approach to determining which eye is dominant and by how much it is effecting your aim. Gene verified what I already believed to be my dominant eye, and the amount of time it took to prove how it was effecting my aim, was mere moments.

My stance on how players can naturally correct for ED (lol...I realize what else that could stand for) has not changed. IMO any player who is truly attempting to excel at pool can and should be adjusting how they hit the OB to pocket it correctly. However speaking as someone who was away for the game for nearly a decade. What Gene showed me has renewed my confidence at playing this game at a high(er) level.

What I discover in my short time with Gene, is that my ED was actually creating confidence issues at key moments. Brief story shorter..: Cutting the ball one way,, everything is natural. Cutting it the other, the aim feels off and I end up adjusting by feel to pot the ball. Now I do make that adjusted shot more often than not. However when I'm playing at less than my best, having to correct after my approach instills doubt. This does have the potential to leach into the rest of my game while the pressure increases throughout a match/tourney. I'm known as a grinder, and I always do my best to play through this potential self doubt. This perceived "grinding" is honestly me just trying push the doubt out of my mind while down on the ball. To be clear, this ED revelation and it's likelyhood in improving my game is conjecture on my part as I obviously haven't had the opportunity to test my theory in the heat of battle during the last few hours. That said, I can speak objectively about my own game and tendencies in key moments. ...so I think I can speculate with some certainty.

I have absolutely zero doubt that my time with Gene this evening will improve my game. Will I make more balls...?...no, not directly. I do now however understand why I feel the need to adjust aim while down on the ball. This will translate into reset and re-approach rather than "on the fly correction" which is the bane to consistency, and will prevent me from second guessing myself in tough situations.

I should also state that the "correction" does not impact my fundamentals and/or PSR.

Strong players..., this is worth your time. :thumbup:
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wouldn't it be grand if it were only this simple?

Lower level players stay there for a variety of reasons. Not aiming straight is way down on the list. Particularly for 3s and 4s. They have no stance, they have no stroke, they have no pre shot routine, they have no plan. In short they have no solid fundamentals. And then they often have booze and dope to boot.

And they generally have no inclination to change any of that. The reason the people you help improve rapidly is partly because of what you show them about their eyes but mostly because they do have an inclination to get better which is why you met them to begin with.

Dude... spot on. Playing Apa and being a 7/9 I get that question often from middle level players that aren’t getting better. I ask how much are you playing? They will say oh I play leagues 4 times a week. Noooo.. how much are you playing? Leagues won’t make you better. Competing is how you test if the work your putting in is making you better. Honing your fundamentals .. as you said. Shooting drills. Thats how you get better.
A good golfer doesn’t good just going out and playing 18 holes . They spend time on the driving range. Hours hitting the same shots over and over again until they consistently hit them at will. Pool is no different. You have to put in the time if you want to play at the highest level your capable of.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
I ask how much are you playing? They will say oh I play leagues 4 times a week. Noooo.. how much are you playing? Leagues won’t make you better. Competing is how you test if the work your putting in is making you better.

Keeping in mind the skill levels you are speaking of, APA 3/4, league actually is competitive play for them.

Everything is relative honestly... I go a step further, and say shooting drills are a waste of time. Good for warming up your arm, but doesn't teach you how to deal with actual game play. Better to splash the balls and try to get out.

I think we need to reset and realize that the eye dominance correction Gene teaches isn't the whole picture. However after spending a few minutes on it with him. I can fully understand how it could greatly hamper a new player's progress.
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Keeping in mind the skill levels you are speaking of, APA 3/4, league actually is competitive play for them.

Everything is relative honestly... I go a step further, and say shooting drills are a waste of time. Good for warming up your arm, but doesn't teach you how to deal with actual game play. Better to splash the balls and try to get out.

I think we need to reset and realize that the eye dominance correction Gene teaches isn't the whole picture. However after spending a few minutes on it with him. I can fully understand how it could greatly hamper a new player's progress.

I’m talking about the 5 and 6’s and the best players in the world do drills. Lol tiger woods after a round will go back to the driver ranger when everyone is eating dinner and hit his irons or whatever he was struggling with for hours...but you know what do they know. Lol any instructor will tell you the worst thing you can do is splash the balls on the table and run them out. Unfocused practice is a waste of time.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
I’m talking about the 5 and 6’s

My apologies... you clearly said "middle level". I had 3/4 in my mind from the post you quoted.

.....and the best players in the world do drills. Lol tiger woods after a round will go back to the driver ranger when everyone is eating dinner and hit his irons or whatever he was struggling with for hours...but you know what do they know. Lol any instructor will tell you the worst thing you can do is splash the balls on the table and run them out. Unfocused practice is a waste of time.

I didn't imply the bolded above.... I just believe setting up the same shot time after time is a waste of time. The only difficulty in pool is the randomness of the game. I see more benefit in simulating the random nature of game play during practice. I can tell ya, I've apparently wasted decades of time with unfocused practice. It has served me well, and loaded my bag with an arsenal of options when I encounter difficult choices not covered by drills.

All that said, you now have me thinking I could have been the Tiger Woods of pool if I had ran into any pool instructor during my youth.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not sure I understand the "hands follow the eyes" thing.

I guess I'd like to hear a fuller explanation but with just the fortune cookie to go on I'd have to say it sounds kinda bogus.

Lou Figueroa

It becomes obvious if you substitute pistol shooting for pool. I don't think the gun analogy applies to pool though. A gun is manufactured to produce linear forces. A shooter trains to point it correctly. A pool player has to train to produce a linear force and further has to train to propel a sphere along the same line. As those iron willies seem to indicate, this is better done by setting the stick correctly in the first place.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rare and special lesson here for sure..

Thanks again Gene. It was a pleasure...

For all the active readers of this thread that like me doubt the value learning about / compensating for eye dominance, here is my honest and unsolicited review of my time spent with Gene this evening.

Please note, that I would be considered by most as an advanced amateur player, so the focus of the lesson centered mostly on identifying and gauging my eye dominance. Adjusting my fundamentals was not a consideration at any point. I also never doubted the phenomenon of eye dominance.

First off, it should be known that Gene is a pleasure to deal with, and very forth coming with his approach. There is no snake oil being offered for sale.

He has his own approach to determining which eye is dominant and by how much it is effecting your aim. Gene verified what I already believed to be my dominant eye, and the amount of time it took to prove how it was effecting my aim, was mere moments.

My stance on how players can naturally correct for ED (lol...I realize what else that could stand for) has not changed. IMO any player who is truly attempting to excel at pool can and should be adjusting how they hit the OB to pocket it correctly. However speaking as someone who was away for the game for nearly a decade. What Gene showed me has renewed my confidence at playing this game at a high(er) level.

What I discover in my short time with Gene, is that my ED was actually creating confidence issues at key moments. Brief story shorter..: Cutting the ball one way,, everything is natural. Cutting it the other, the aim feels off and I end up adjusting by feel to pot the ball. Now I do make that adjusted shot more often than not. However when I'm playing at less than my best, having to correct after my approach instills doubt. This does have the potential to leach into the rest of my game while the pressure increases throughout a match/tourney. I'm known as a grinder, and I always do my best to play through this potential self doubt. This perceived "grinding" is honestly me just trying push the doubt out of my mind while down on the ball. To be clear, this ED revelation and it's likelyhood in improving my game is conjecture on my part as I obviously haven't had the opportunity to test my theory in the heat of battle during the last few hours. That said, I can speak objectively about my own game and tendencies in key moments. ...so I think I can speculate with some certainty.

I have absolutely zero doubt that my time with Gene this evening will improve my game. Will I make more balls...?...no, not directly. I do now however understand why I feel the need to adjust aim while down on the ball. This will translate into reset and re-approach rather than "on the fly correction" which is the bane to consistency, and will prevent me from second guessing myself in tough situations.

I should also state that the "correction" does not impact my fundamentals and/or PSR.

Strong players..., this is worth your time. :thumbup:

Before we did this lesson I watched JV play on some videos. I watched for about 30 minutes and hardly ever seen him miss but I could see he would get up and down again sometimes on certain shots. He would still get there on most of them and still make the ball.

When he says at the end of the post: Strong players...., this is worth your time.....He is relating to strong players because he can play with the best of them. He can flat out play.

There are players hidden all over the place that could be playing professionally but they are doing the family thing, work thing and that is great. Jv is one of those guys.

I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he would be pleasantly surprised how much this would help to envision the shot as good as humanly possible. Something that just was kind of not there on certain shots cut to the left.

Because of the level of play JV is at, any little improvement is huge.

On the same token, the lower level player learning the same thing is huge also but in a different way. The lower level player can now make some kind of sense about what is going on when he shoots a shot otherwise the whole game is just a mess and seems like mission impossible. Once this is learned they can start to improve at an extremely fast pace. This is why many of the young guns I have worked with get to a higher level and seem to come out of nowhere.

Now , what higher level they get to depends on how hard they work because there is allot more to this game than seeing the shot correctly but if the sights on any gun are crooked the person shooting the gun would look very bad, not knowing what the problem was makes it even worse.

Just keep missing and missing and missing. Shape doesn't work, ball patterns aren't even a thought and the missed shot takes care of any ball patterns or shape you were planning on. Nothing works well.

JV is a prime example of a player that plays at a higher level and played flawless at certain times in his life. He shared this thought with me during the lesson. During the flawless time he was playing all the time. Gambling every day and just getting out from everywhere. This is what repetition will do and is how many of the pros stay on top of their game. Playing allot. They have learned during their life from other players and also from monkey see, monkey do.

But once this player can actually see how flawed our own natural eye dominance is and how to correct it there is no telling this player that this isn't the answer for everyone that wants to improve.

JV teaches pool. so he was kind of pleasantly surprised by what he saw. Something that would give him the confidence to feel good about every shot by knowing how to keep the eye dominance under control. Once this is done manually for awhile it kind of becomes natural. But at the same time we drift back, not getting there sometimes and need to dig in and work at it again.

Myself, I remind myself every time I come to shoot pool how i need this to be right or i will struggle sometimes until I do get it right. And JV will discover this also. Our eye dominance will betray us from time to time. I call it a tune up to get on the right track again. Knowing how to correct this manually is a must. If you don't know how to correct it manually there is no tune up.

Working with a player of JV's ability is very rewarding to me. I know that I am working with a player that had put his heart and soul into the game. Grinding out every shot and grinding out every dollar played for.

Being able to show and help someone with something that I know will just add to this whole story line is the best possible reward for me.

The best part of the whole thing is JV teaches some pool and he can share this with some of the young guns up there in Canada. He can build some young champions. This will just help them get there a little faster.

JV, I want to thank you for letting me share this with you. Good Luck my friend....:thumbup:
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
Well thanks Gene, you just killed any easy action I might ever hope for...lol.

I do appreciate all the kind words.

Truth be told, I'm not an formal instructor / teacher. More of a sage type road warrior that doesn't hesitate attempting to pass on what wisdom I've collected during the long fought battle.

I will be adding your insight into my bag of "tricks". I already have a few individuals in mind that will benefit as well.

All the best in your upcoming match.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Soory about the killing part JV

Well thanks Gene, you just killed any easy action I might ever hope for...lol.

I do appreciate all the kind words.

Truth be told, I'm not an formal instructor / teacher. More of a sage type road warrior that doesn't hesitate attempting to pass on what wisdom I've collected during the long fought battle.

I will be adding your insight into my bag of "tricks". I already have a few individuals in mind that will benefit as well.

All the best in your upcoming match.

At least I didn't use your real name. :rolleyes::rolleyes::)
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just worked with Mika tonight, you know who?

Same with a pool shot. If we are not looking exactly at what we are trying to do it doesn't get done either.

Just because a player is looking at the cue ball and object ball doesn't mean that he has it right. Once a player sees with their own eyes what is really really right they can make huge leaps and bounds in their game.

Once I get done showing players how to really look at the shot they will never see a pool shot the same for the rest of their life.

Unless they drift back to old habits.

Thanks again....

Played a couple of cheap sets with Mika tonight after I got done with some bigger sets at another pool hall earlier. I was pretty pooped but still hit some balls with him.

After we were done I talked to him about the dominant eye and he told me he was right eye dominant. I could see when he got down on the shot that he was favoring him left eye.

So once he was down on the shot I had him move his head back and forth. He could see how bad it looked when the right eye was in the dominant position and when he got the left eye there how good it looked. He was surprised for sure.

Then I showed him cutting balls to the left and the right. I helped him realize that when he cut to the left it felt like the left eye was doing everything and he said he felt like the left eye was shooting.

Then we lined up the right cut. In minutes with my help he could see that his left eye still felt like it was doing the work when he cut to the right, but, the with the left eye closed he could see that the right eye was actually aiming the shot. I didn't explain everything to him because we only had minutes before the Jimmy's closed but I showed him enough to help him see the shots better for himself and soon he will be able to teach this to some of the players that he helps.

This was so much fun. Way back in the 90's when he first came to the USA I played against him in a tournament. Pinkys in Vegas. He still remembered that. Pretty cool.

It was a really good night. I passed on a little info that I know will get spread around.

Nice guy too. One of the good guys in this pool world of ours.
:thumbup:
 

DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mika? Are your referring to Mika Immonen? Thats impressive!

Of course I had an instructor once tell me that he worked with/gave a lesson to Karen Corr. And I found out later all he did was help her get her instructor certification.

r/DCP
 
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