The Break - Ball in Hand after the Break and the Five Ball

[the420trooper]

Its a bad argument. Jesse Bowman might beat a lot of people on a barbox but that doesn't mean he will beat them on a 9' table. The fact of the matter is, a 9' table is the standard to which the pros play on. He's a barbox champion but his name never comes up otherwise.

Who would win in baketball on a 12' hoop, Lebron or Kobe? Doesn't matter cause it doesn't mean one is better than the other, its a 12' hoop.

If the standard of pool moves to a 10' table, then you have an argument.

It's funny how you just agreed with me without even realizing it. If you exchanged the name Bowman with SVB, and barbox to 9 footer, we're both saying almost the same thing.

As far as your basketball analogy goes, I would say that whoever puts down the most shots on the 12 footer is the more accurate shotmaker...and whoever puts themselves in a position to take a shot at that 12' hoop is the better position player.

The winner under the most difficult of circumstances is clearly the better overall player...right?

 

[Masayoshi]

It's funny how you just agreed with me without even realizing it. If you exchanged the name Bowman with SVB, and barbox to 9 footer, we're both saying almost the same thing.

As far as your basketball analogy goes, I would say that whoever puts down the most shots on the 12 footer is the more accurate shotmaker...and whoever puts themselves in a position to take a shot at that 12' hoop is the better position player.

The winner under the most difficult of circumstances is clearly the better overall player...right?

By that reasoning, Ronnie O'Sullivan is the best pool player in the world because he would crush everyone playing 9 ball on a 12 footer.

The measure for the best is who does the best on standard conditons. 7, 10, and 12 foot tables are not standard and thus irrelevant.

 

[Neil]

..........

 

[the420trooper]

By that reasoning, Ronnie O'Sullivan is the best pool player in the world because he would crush everyone playing 9 ball on a 12 footer.

The measure for the best is who does the best on standard conditons. 7, 10, and 12 foot tables are not standard and thus irrelevant.

Ronnie is probably the best ball pocketer in the world. He doesn't know the game of 9 ball as well as the better 9 ball players in the world, so I believe he would lose more often than he won against the great players of today.

However, if you gave Ronnie the knowledge that Earl possesses, no one in the world would stand a chance against him.

Earl is probably the best combination of execution ability and pool smarts that exists on this planet.


As for your second point, 7 and 12 footers are both standard, just not for the average pro pool tournaments. (and since there's no such thing as pro pool, your argument of "standard" holds no weight) I also think the most recent bar table and snooker champions would take exception to you calling their chosen battle fields "irrelevant".

 

[cleary]

It's funny how you just agreed with me without even realizing it. If you exchanged the name Bowman with SVB, and barbox to 9 footer, we're both saying almost the same thing.

As far as your basketball analogy goes, I would say that whoever puts down the most shots on the 12 footer is the more accurate shotmaker...and whoever puts themselves in a position to take a shot at that 12' hoop is the better position player.

The winner under the most difficult of circumstances is clearly the better overall player...right?

I would say, "maybe you should read my post again" but I don't think it will help. You just don't get it.

A 10' hoop is the professional basketball standard. A 9' table is the professional 9ball standard. Anything else is just something else.

 

[Masayoshi]

Ronnie is probably the best ball pocketer in the world. He doesn't know the game of 9 ball as well as the better 9 ball players in the world, so I believe he would lose more often than he won against the great players of today.

However, if you gave Ronnie the knowledge that Earl possesses, no one in the world would stand a chance against him.

Earl is probably the best combination of execution ability and pool smarts that exists on this planet.


As for your second point, 7 and 12 footers are both standard, just not for the average pro pool tournaments. (and since there's no such thing as pro pool, your argument of "standard" holds no weight) I also think the most recent bar table and snooker champions would take exception to you calling their chosen battle fields "irrelevant".

Even with Earls knowledge, Ronnie doesn't stand a chance. There are just different skill sets. The ability to work the cue ball is far more important than the ability to pocket balls. I would argue that a top 3 cushion player with Earl's pocketing would make a better pool player than Ronnie with Earl's knowledge.

Except for the fact that there IS professional pool and its HUGE with millions of fans, just not in the US. So your argument is invalid.

P.S. They ALL play on 9 footers.

 

[the420trooper]

I would say, "maybe you should read my post again" but I don't think it will help. You just don't get it.

A 10' hoop is the professional basketball standard. A 9' table is the professional 9ball standard. Anything else is just something else.

I will say that I understand your point, I just think you're wrong.

If SVB was a better player than Earl, he would be able to adjust to different conditions better than Earl. That's a huge part of being a pool player, and that's another reason why your basketball analogy falls flat.

B-ball courts are always very similar to one another, while pool tables are like night and day. The player who is more able to adapt is usually the better player.

After all, it's not like Shane never had a chance to practice on that 10' table. He went ahead with the match because even after a couple of days of practicing on that "gaffy" nightmare, he still felt like he could win Earl's money.

He was wrong, and so were all the people who bet on him.

 

[the420trooper]

Even with Earls knowledge, Ronnie doesn't stand a chance. There are just different skill sets. The ability to work the cue ball is far more important than the ability to pocket balls. I would argue that a top 3 cushion player with Earl's pocketing would make a better pool player than Ronnie with Earl's knowledge.

Except for the fact that there IS professional pool and its HUGE with millions of fans, just not in the US. So your argument is invalid.

P.S. They ALL play on 9 footers.

My argument is not invalid because no standardization exists in professional pool...no matter what country you're talking about. We play on different brands of tables, different pocket sizes, different pocket angles, etc. If every match that was ever played was on a 9' Diamond Pro-Am, then your argument would have some substance.

Since pool, unlike all other sports, REQUIRES adjusting to different conditions almost every time the pros play, I would say that the better adjuster is the better player.

 

[Masayoshi]

My argument is not invalid because no standardization exists in professional pool...no matter what country you're talking about. We play on different brands of tables, different pocket sizes, different pocket angles, etc. If every match that was ever played was on a 9' Diamond Pro-Am, then your argument would have some substance.

Since pool, unlike all other sports, REQUIRES adjusting to different conditions almost every time the pros play, I would say that the better adjuster is the better player.

(and since there's no such thing as pro pool, your argument of "standard" holds no weight)

Yes, that argument is invalid as there is pro pool.

You're wrong 9' is the standard. Just like golf courses have grass as the standard instead of astroturf. The conditions may change slightly, but that doesn't mean that there aren't standards set in place.

If you want to argue with me, find one professional only tournament played on other sized tables.

BTW, here's the definition that comes up on the first page of google for standard. Even if you found one or two professional tournaments played on bar boxes, it wouldnt matter because that if far from accepted as normal or average.

stand·ard/ˈstandərd/
Adjective: Used or accepted as normal or average: "the standard rate of income tax"; "it is standard practice in museums to register objects as they are acquired".

 

[The Chinchilla]

If SVB was a better player than Earl, he would be able to adjust to different conditions better than Earl.

You don't think SVB is a better player than Earl?? (sorry if the answer to this should be obvious from previous posts)

There are just people who play better on certain equipment simply because they have put the time in.

 

[JAM]

You don't think SVB is a better player than Earl?? (sorry if the answer to this should be obvious from previous posts)

There are just people who play better on certain equipment simply because they have put the time in.

I'm just curious, but how many hours do you think SVB has put into pool compared to how many hours Earl has put into pool. I'd venture to guess that Earl's number of hours he's invested in pool might surpass Shane's, but I could be wrong, I guess. The mere fact that Earl is 50 years old and has been playing pool religiously since he was a teenager may be a hint.

This is another one of those threads where there is *no* right answer.

Comparing skills sets in pool to other sports doesn't quite cut the mustard. There are a variety of games in pocket billiards, to include the various rules and diversity of equipment that's out there, pocket size, cloth, et cetera, et cetera.

I remember going to a tournament in Yankee Country where the pool room had just installed brand-new cloth that began with a "G." I can't remember the name of it. This cloth was so fast that it was like an ice skating rink. You only had to tap the ball and it would literally glide all the way across the table. Players were left scratching their heads.

In the tournament, most people weren't getting shape and became frustrated, except one player who had experience on a variety of equipment. He beat Ronnie Alcano in the finals 9-zip within 20 minutes. He was able to adapt quickly to the new equipment.

*Real* pool players can adapt easier to equipment, and most seasoned players can play all games. They don't have a specialty game or create idiotic rules to favor them when they're engaging in action game.

Times sure have changed, though.

 

[pt109]

I remember going to a tournament in Yankee Country where the pool room had just installed brand-new cloth that began with a "G." I can't remember the name of it. This cloth was so fast that it was like an ice skating rink. You only had to tap the ball and it would literally glide all the way across the table. Players were left scratching their heads.

In the tournament, most people weren't getting shape and became frustrated, except one player who had experience on a variety of equipment. He beat Ronnie Alcano in the finals 9-zip within 20 minutes. He was able to adapt quickly to the new equipment.

*Real* pool players can adapt easier to equipment, and most seasoned players can play all games. They don't have a specialty game or create idiotic rules to favor them when they're engaging in action game.

Times sure have changed, though.

The cloth was probably Granito-Tournament 2,000....this cloth is faster
than Simonis 760.
I love fast cloth...the biggest win I ever took at snooker was on carom
cloth, which makes any pool cloth look slow.
I think players at all levels have conditions they will play their best on.

Keith will have heard this one....
There are courses for horses and horses for courses

 

[Aaron_S]

I agree that pool players have to be able to adapt to many different types of tables and conditions, and that the better player is often the one who can adjust better, but I also feel that is one of the reasons pool is not considered a sport by many people. Pool is not an outdoor sport like golf where the locale and terrain largely dictate what the course will look and play like, and pool players don't carry 14 different cues to allow them to deal with 14 different situations.

I think there should be a detailed set of standards for pool table manufacturers to adhere to if they want their equipment to be used in professional events. As it is now, you can go to 6 different tables and find six different sets of specs with regard to pocket cut, pocket size, shelf depth, and rail height, not to mention the different table sizes and the wide variance in cushion bounce properties from manufacturer to manufacturer. It would be absurd to talk about who the best table tennis player is on a 7' x 13' table with a 12" tall net, or who the best bowler is on a 50" x 75' bowling lane, and it's a shame that we have to have this kind of debate in pool. I think it belittles our sport and makes it look like the shady pub game most people consider it to be.

Aaron

 

[JAM]

I agree that pool players have to be able to adapt to many different types of tables and conditions, and that the better player is often the one who can adjust better, but I also feel that is one of the reasons pool is not considered a sport by many people. Pool is not an outdoor sport like golf where the locale and terrain largely dictate what the course will look and play like, and pool players don't carry 14 different cues to allow them to deal with 14 different situations.

I think there should be a detailed set of standards for pool table manufacturers to adhere to if they want their equipment to be used in professional events. As it is now, you can go to 6 different tables and find six different sets of specs with regard to pocket cut, pocket size, shelf depth, and rail height, not to mention the different table sizes and the wide variance in cushion bounce properties from manufacturer to manufacturer. It would be absurd to talk about who the best table tennis player is on a 7' x 13' table with a 12" tall net, or who the best bowler is on a 50" x 75' bowling lane, and it's a shame that we have to have this kind of debate in pool. I think it belittles our sport and makes it look like the shady pub game most people consider it to be.

Aaron

That makes a lot of sense. :smile:

Actually, I have seen Earl Strickland come to his designated table in a pool competition tugging three -- count them, three -- thick and heavy pool cases filled with a variety of cues, much like a golfer carrying around a variety of clubs.

 

[iba7467]

Gary has played Joe a few times in the last few months at the break and in Farmington. I heard Gary was south and doing really well recently. There is some good action out at Hillsboro even as we speak. I believe the dickersons, Joe W, Kevin C, and a few others are lined up for the next couple of days. Chip and Joey posted looking for action and Jimmy responded for Justin but I saw no answer.

When are we playing IBA?

Gary has been down South for a while. Everyone gambles down there. I don't even know where Hillsboro is but would be interested in checking it out.

I will play you anytime you are in the St Louis area. You can PM me anytime to set something up or call me at 256-525-0773.

 

[Nostroke]

I could only beat 'A' players with this spot-never a top pro. When Ginky was at the top of his game or damn close, efren gave him the 7 and breaks and they broke even. Efren then offered him the 6 out (no breaks obviously and Ginky did not take it) Ive seen Frankie H give a top 'A' player the five and out and win. I think its closer than you think for some of you especially if you have a little dog in you.

 

[pooljunkie4ever]

IMO, If you think you can get the 5 BBIH from anyone, at the Derby or Vegas,
next time you are there, pull out a wod of money from your pocket, wave it about and yell out, " I will take the 5 BBIH from anyone". Who knows, you might be surprised to be in action.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[ShootingArts]

I believe that players that can adapt have a huge edge

I'm just curious, but how many hours do you think SVB has put into pool compared to how many hours Earl has put into pool. I'd venture to guess that Earl's number of hours he's invested in pool might surpass Shane's, but I could be wrong, I guess. The mere fact that Earl is 50 years old and has been playing pool religiously since he was a teenager may be a hint.

This is another one of those threads where there is *no* right answer.

Comparing skills sets in pool to other sports doesn't quite cut the mustard. There are a variety of games in pocket billiards, to include the various rules and diversity of equipment that's out there, pocket size, cloth, et cetera, et cetera.

I remember going to a tournament in Yankee Country where the pool room had just installed brand-new cloth that began with a "G." I can't remember the name of it. This cloth was so fast that it was like an ice skating rink. You only had to tap the ball and it would literally glide all the way across the table. Players were left scratching their heads.

In the tournament, most people weren't getting shape and became frustrated, except one player who had experience on a variety of equipment. He beat Ronnie Alcano in the finals 9-zip within 20 minutes. He was able to adapt quickly to the new equipment.

*Real* pool players can adapt easier to equipment, and most seasoned players can play all games. They don't have a specialty game or create idiotic rules to favor them when they're engaging in action game.

Times sure have changed, though.

I have long thought this was a portion of the overall Filipino success. They have played on every variety of equipment imaginable including tables without cloth using pucks.

I played off the wall for ten years, whatever cue I found wherever I wandered to. Pool halls or low dives where you had to sneak a little sandpaper out your pocket to avoid getting splinters in your bridge hand from the shaft area. Once I started running tables I never picked up a stick that I couldn't run the table with. Loose weights I hated but I could play with. Curved shaft areas were the norm, I just tried to avoid those with two different curves in different directions. I sometimes grabbed an extremely crooked stick with an inch or more of warp. Nobody played with those so the tip and shaft might be in the best shape of any in the house and of course I had my trusty BRAD tool to fix the tip up a bit when the other player wasn't looking.

Playing off the wall and wherever I found a pool table I adapted in a matter of minutes, almost instantly. Now I struggle with my custom cue, laminated shaft, and twenty dollar tip if the temperature in the pool room changes ten degrees, heaven help me if I go to a strange hall with different tables or travel so far that I am dealing with different climate conditions.

I know I am guilty of becoming a "hothouse" player that needs things just right to play my best. I think most of today's US players have too. One of my favorite tables to compete on has the air conditioner blowing on it 24/7 in the summertime as it struggles to keep up. The cold air comes from the side going over one set of rails and blowing hard on the other set. One end rail is substantially cooler on one end than the other too. This table is an absolute monster for two people both breaking from one side to play one pocket on swapping rails they are banking off of every game unless they realize what is going on. It took me awhile to realize that the table banked honestly, the same all the time but that four out of the six rail sections all played slightly differently from each other and differently from the two rails that missed the blast of cold air.

Pool was a lot more fun when I just walked in the door and picked up a stick to take on anyone that wanted to play, even. Now I bring 363 pounds of gear and an accountant and two lawyers to negotiate for me. Last year I played for awhile just bringing a BRAD tool and a tiny square of scotch brite or sandpaper to the pool hall, all fit into the watch pocket of my jeans. I didn't spend thirty minutes checking and loading gear or have to bring the usual two armed security guards to watch my case if I had to take my eyes off of it for an instant. It felt very good to just walk into a hall and play pool without thirty minutes to assemble and prepare my gear before play and somehow I felt more like I was playing pool.

I miss the good ol' days when things were rotten! Things are still pretty rotten but most of the fun seems to be gone.

Hu

 

[Mitchxout]

My story is similar to yours. I've played with bad cues so often that I developed an aversion to higher end cues. The better a cue looks, the worse I play. Whenever I start paying more attention to the cue than the game, I'm done.

In fact, Johnny Archer was quoted as saying, pick up a cue you hate and play as hard as you can if you really want to learn how to play.