think about it. in 8-ball the break just may be a minus! true, if the table were to have sheered down worsted simonis 860 cloth, and the pockets were to be 5", and the balls spotless, rolling freely on O.I.S. than yeah, it's a HUGE advantage to be the breaker, of course, running out will present not many problems, however, on slow nap Mali fuzzy/felty cloth with very tight 4 and a quarter inch pockets, break from the center of the head string, breaking just may lead to many failed heroic failed run outs, that seemed like a good idea at the begining of the rack, but proves to be fatal, almost like taking on a very long straight- in red early in a frame of snooker, and missing!!! a fatal mistake! so, let's discuss, it.
The Break Is It A Plus Or Minus????
- Thread starter 8-ball bernie
- Start date
my .02 cents
I think you are making too much out of the cloth.
All pros have shot on slower cloth, it is not something
completely new to them. Anyone that has shot Pool
on a bar table in an actual bar will know what it is like.
Plus, it will be new cloth on the tables when they compete.
The break will be affected some. It will be like when the
cloth is worn out more, and when you break if a ball or
two goes straight into a pocket, but the breaks where
the balls roll a lot before dropping into a pocket will not
be happening so much.
I think you will see 3-4 packs scattered throughout the
tournament, but I think 6 packs will be far and few because
I do not think you will see the opened up tables after the
break like you would on fast cloth, and no matter how good
you are, sometimes clusters of balls can not be worked out
for a run, and you have to play a safety or two. It's funny,
people claim to like to see a player run the tables, but when
it starts happening too much, then they complain the game
is too easy. Would they say that if it happened in 1 pocket?
So, who will prevail ... The simple straightforward thinking players
or the abstract thinking can do the complex things players? That
is, where I believe, the excitement and anticipation lies.
I, myself, am a little on the abstract side, and tend to win more
often with the more complex games (8 ball in lieu of 9 ball). I suppose
that is also why I like 14.1 and 1 pocket too.
I think you are making too much out of the cloth.
All pros have shot on slower cloth, it is not something
completely new to them. Anyone that has shot Pool
on a bar table in an actual bar will know what it is like.
Plus, it will be new cloth on the tables when they compete.
The break will be affected some. It will be like when the
cloth is worn out more, and when you break if a ball or
two goes straight into a pocket, but the breaks where
the balls roll a lot before dropping into a pocket will not
be happening so much.
I think you will see 3-4 packs scattered throughout the
tournament, but I think 6 packs will be far and few because
I do not think you will see the opened up tables after the
break like you would on fast cloth, and no matter how good
you are, sometimes clusters of balls can not be worked out
for a run, and you have to play a safety or two. It's funny,
people claim to like to see a player run the tables, but when
it starts happening too much, then they complain the game
is too easy. Would they say that if it happened in 1 pocket?
So, who will prevail ... The simple straightforward thinking players
or the abstract thinking can do the complex things players? That
is, where I believe, the excitement and anticipation lies.
I, myself, am a little on the abstract side, and tend to win more
often with the more complex games (8 ball in lieu of 9 ball). I suppose
that is also why I like 14.1 and 1 pocket too.
table roll
I think that the break will be a plus it puts control in that players hands to begin with. Slower cloth maybe, but not worn it won't be that much slower and the tables will still be dead on or at least they should be I don't see them putting up with the rolls that a house table might have no matter how much money, I undestand, 2 oponents in a game not three.
I think that the break will be a plus it puts control in that players hands to begin with. Slower cloth maybe, but not worn it won't be that much slower and the tables will still be dead on or at least they should be I don't see them putting up with the rolls that a house table might have no matter how much money, I undestand, 2 oponents in a game not three.
If you would like to bet some v-cash, I'll put up all I have to the contrary. The percentage of BROs will be less than 50% (and I'll guess less than 25% for the full field). Would you like to bet on 50%?Rich R. said:
Interesting scenario to think about. Let's say your numbers are accurate, and 25% of the breaks would result in a run out by the breaker. Let's simplify things even more and say that 25% of the breaks would result in a RO, and the other 75% would result in a run out by the nonbreaker. So in this situation, breaking is clearly the disadvantage. In this scenario, would we ever see people switching over to breaking the balls one-pocket or 14.1-style to reduce the disadvantage?Bob Jewett said:
Answer yourself ...
I think you can answer that yourself. If you were playing Efren,
would you try to break wide open and run the table, OR would
you safety break and think you have more of a chance working
out the clusters and the safety play that would ensue?
(my answer would be to safety break, and leave him long
shots since he just had eye surgery ... lol)
jsp said:
I think you can answer that yourself. If you were playing Efren,
would you try to break wide open and run the table, OR would
you safety break and think you have more of a chance working
out the clusters and the safety play that would ensue?
(my answer would be to safety break, and leave him long
shots since he just had eye surgery ... lol)
Break to win
You have to break to win. Break make one ball and take it from there. You make balls till you run out or play safe. That is the game, a little different than 9 ball because you can play more stratagey, defense ( blocking pockets, tie up 8 ball, etc.) it is a combo of pocketing, straight and one hole.8-ball bernie said:
It is still an advantage to break, given the rumor someone said that it will be open after the break. Getting first choice of group is a huge advantage. And hopefully, I will be breaking enough for it to be a factor. lol
Another interesting question is are we racking or will there be a designated racker? Or will the Sardo be used? I would prefer a non-biased racker or the Sardo, as there is less chance of twisting the rack or getting slugs.
I was in the finals of an 8 ball tournament and my opponent kept safety breaking on me. You do have to get 4 balls to a rail to be legal, but that is fairly easy to do. I did a lot of work chipping away on breakouts and he did win. I would not think it would be an advantage with a player of Efren's caliber that can lock you up tight against the pack and break it wide open when he gets BIH.
As I just stated in another post, Mike Sigel only broke and ran 5 out of 22 games in his match with Loree Jon or 23%. Breaking out of the box, slightly smaller pockets and slower cloth will have an effect on the break. First shooter to make a ball has the advantage, whether it's the breaker or the incoming player.
Another interesting question is are we racking or will there be a designated racker? Or will the Sardo be used? I would prefer a non-biased racker or the Sardo, as there is less chance of twisting the rack or getting slugs.
I was in the finals of an 8 ball tournament and my opponent kept safety breaking on me. You do have to get 4 balls to a rail to be legal, but that is fairly easy to do. I did a lot of work chipping away on breakouts and he did win. I would not think it would be an advantage with a player of Efren's caliber that can lock you up tight against the pack and break it wide open when he gets BIH.
As I just stated in another post, Mike Sigel only broke and ran 5 out of 22 games in his match with Loree Jon or 23%. Breaking out of the box, slightly smaller pockets and slower cloth will have an effect on the break. First shooter to make a ball has the advantage, whether it's the breaker or the incoming player.
the combination of breaking from the center of the head string, and tight pockets, will diminish making balls on the break dramatically.
rackmsuckr said:
Actually, Sigel only had the break on 18 of the 22 games played (if he won the lag, which I think he did). So that would be 5 of 18, or 27% RO.
sixpack said:
In my opinion: If you play a player below your level, I would assume you win more often in a safety rack game than in an open table game - supposed your opponent can run three friggin balls. Your skills and experience compared to your opponent will give you more advantage on the difficult tables than on the open tables.
So my view is that your opponents strategy is wrong - they just prolong the pain.
I don't know how this v-cash works, but I would be willing to take that bet. However, I would doubt that they will keep such statistics.Bob Jewett said:
Even more important is, if the breaker does not run out, he may run a few balls and play safe, by which he still keeps control of the table.
When playing 8-ball, these guys don't miss too often.
I guess a better bet, for me, would be that the breaker of a rack will win more than 50% of the time.
rackmsuckr said:
Hear, hear! Neutral rackers would be ideal, but are often not used in high-profile events, except in the finals.
In an ideal 8-ball world, it would be splendid to have non-biased rackers. Bowlers don't rack their own pins, and pool players shouldn't rack their own balls (IMO).
There is one school of thought that the break is 50 percent of one's game. A player who utilizes his/her breaking strategies will advance, breaking from the D. I've seen far too many games on the tournament trail won by players utilizing racking strategies, which is like playing poker with a marked deck, but that's a subject for another thread.
JAM
Str8PoolMan said:
Good catch, I just realized that myself after reading my post and figured that if he lost both lags, that would be 5 out of 16 or 32%, or almost 1 in 3, but still not the 50% or higher predicted. And it is certainly not running multiple packs as predicted either. Maybe Efren will though.
I do agree that the breaker that makes a ball has the most control to play a safety and continue to win, which may be what that 50%+ consists of. Although a few times I broke and was locked against a ball and a rail with no way to screw up the balls, much less make one.
pooladdict said:In my opinion: If you play a player below your level, I would assume you win more often in a safety rack game than in an open table game - supposed your opponent can run three friggin balls. Your skills and experience compared to your opponent will give you more advantage on the difficult tables than on the open tables.
So my view is that your opponents strategy is wrong - they just prolong the pain.
You are correct, but since I like running out so much, I see it as a challenge to get out on AWFUL tables and so their strategy works...in leagues...won't work for the cash though
Gabber
Banned
First shot is always an advantage.
Someone provided a link to the final of the Euro tour Switzerland [ if you are reading, thanks for that] and one of the players made the same ball in the corner pocket, almost everytime, with a soft break!
A good breaker has an advantage, the bad breaker is at a disadvantage.
Just my opinion.
Gabber
Someone provided a link to the final of the Euro tour Switzerland [ if you are reading, thanks for that] and one of the players made the same ball in the corner pocket, almost everytime, with a soft break!
A good breaker has an advantage, the bad breaker is at a disadvantage.
Just my opinion.
Gabber
Having taken some of Bob's stats and opinions into consideration, I have reduced my prediction of BROs from 50% average for the field to about 30%. Something like what Sigel performed in his match. I suspect the top players will still get 50%+ once they get stroking.jsp said:
So to breakdown winning percentages:
Breaker: Note: Makes a ball on 75% of breaks. (Players make on average 40% of these opportunities to Run Out)
30% won off break. (approx 75% x 40%)
10% from when break is open, opponent fails and he runs out.
16% from later shots, advantage due to usually having best choice of balls and better players will be breaking more often than lesser players:
Total win % for Breaker = 56%
Non-Breaker:
10% won when breaker comes up empty and runs out. (25% x 40%)
22% won when breaker fails on runout attempt (75% x 60% x 50% (runout liklihood))
12% from later shots.
Total Win % for Non-Breaker = 44%
The main reason for the breaker's advantage is that he can make the break most the time and get to choose the better balls to run. So long as he can run out around 40% of the time after this and the opponent has similar stats he retains a reasonable advantage.
Of course this doesn't account for many variables, but hopefully answers to some degree why it is generally considered that the breaker has an advantage.
It will be interesting to get stats from the IPT. They should create a ton of stats like in baseball. Makes a way for the analytically minded to compare player abilities / styles / strategies...for self amuse