The Chinese are coming ...

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Foreign cue makers can build a cue as good as any now made in the good ole U.S. if they are paid to do so. They build to the specs and to the prices that the importer dictates. Over the years Chinese has always been associated with junk. When I was a kid in the fifties this same connotation was associated with made in Japan. Some of the Chines cue products are light years better than what was offered 20 years ago from Asia. Some of the super cheap imports aren't much better but some of the higher end ones such as Lucassi and such are built better and are selling very well. Thing is, they don't worry me in the least as the people who order and buy my cues would never even consider an Asian cue in their case. The companies that need to worry, and they are, are the large, cue building conglomerates such as Meucci, McDermott, Joss and such. The people who are buying these factory cues are league players and semi-serious players who are not absolute pool nuts and are not as knowledgeable about cues. These people are looking for the most bang for the buck and the Asian cues have inlays on top of inlays at the same price or little more than a bottom of the line American production cue. Many people are not even aware that Lucassis, Players and such cues aren't American made cues.

Dick
 
Bought my daughter a $39.99 china cue for Christmas. She was just starting to shoot and going off to college. The cue looked real nice, six point with BE maple decals, but it did look well made with a piloted SS joint. She started playing league at college and it wasen't long till she wanted a better cue. When she came home for summer I had made/converted a few cues. So I made her one. Funny thing was she wanted a plain well made cue nothing fancy. I finaly got to try the China made cue. It didn't hit near as nice as it looked. So yea it dosen't take long for people to want something better.

Larry
 
A well made custom cue coupled with good customer service will win out against production cues regardless of where they are manufactured or made.
 
WilleeCue said:
Well I knew it was only a matter of time.

I was looking at some Chinese cues priced under $200 (some under $100) retail last night.
Good solid light colored maple shaft, quality ferrule, real linen wrap.
Good wood, excellent fit and workmanship, proper construction, and a nice finish.

I could not do the wrap, shaft, and finish for under $200 and make a profit let alone do the completed cue.
I could buy the whole cue wholesale, throw away the butt, sell the shaft for $100 and still make a profit.

The bottom to mid end of the cue market will soon be owned by the Chinese.
This is exactly where most cue makers are making their money ... $300 to $500 cues.
It will take a while for the pool playing public to wise up to the quality being offered and for the past stigma of "Made in China" to wear off.
But it will ... and the American cue makers will be dropping like flies.

Only the hobby and the super high end cue maker will survive the next 5 years.

Unless you are making $2000 and up level cues you should start considering another way to make a living.

Willee
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I've been eyeing up a lucasi since you brought it up
 
WilleeCue said:
Joey, I think you are right about that.

But Corpus Christi is a small town and I doubt anyone could get by on just repairs here.
Perhaps in a large city like Chicago a guy would have a lot of repair and maintenance work.

What are your plans Joey?
Are you thinking about ever doing cue making and/or repair work full time or is it going to be a hobby?

Willee
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Especially when you picture a new guy getting into cue making/repair. i can't imagine trying to buy the equipment and then get by doing repair work.
 
WilleeCue said:
Well I knew it was only a matter of time.

I was looking at some Chinese cues priced under $200 (some under $100) retail last night.
Good solid light colored maple shaft, quality ferrule, real linen wrap.
Good wood, excellent fit and workmanship, proper construction, and a nice finish.

I could not do the wrap, shaft, and finish for under $200 and make a profit let alone do the completed cue.
I could buy the whole cue wholesale, throw away the butt, sell the shaft for $100 and still make a profit.

The bottom to mid end of the cue market will soon be owned by the Chinese.
This is exactly where most cue makers are making their money ... $300 to $500 cues.
It will take a while for the pool playing public to wise up to the quality being offered and for the past stigma of "Made in China" to wear off.
But it will ... and the American cue makers will be dropping like flies.

Only the hobby and the super high end cue maker will survive the next 5 years.

Unless you are making $2000 and up level cues you should start considering another way to make a living.

Willee
Click to expand...


Willee, I have to agree with you when your talking about cues in the $150 and below price range. However, I totally disagree with you when we are talking about cues that are $200 and up. They in no way shape or form compare to American made products in some very critical areas based upon the repair work I do on these cues regularly. I am in a location that has an abundance of people who play pool, especially BCA, APA league players, and I host these Leagues out of my Pool Hall in Lakewood, Washington.

On a regular basis, I do repair work on cues produced in Asia, and all these cues have many many similar problems that stem from materials, not from Craftsmanship. While I admit that in most cases the $200 + Asian cues are machined to high standards they continue to cut corners with the materials they use, and this is how they can produce things for such a low price. The adhesives in almost all cases do not wear well, and over time ( Couple of Years) they will break down and allow movement of parts. This is especially true for the adhesive they are using for their wraps. What ever it is I do not claim to know never fully dries ( it remains Tacky ) and if it is exposed to warm temperatures it will just let loose.

Unlike American made production cues Asian cues do not have butt caps, ferrules and joint collars that are screwed on and glued, so again as the adhesives break down these parts typically fail, oh and they are also made in most cases of plastic not Phenolic. In addition to these problems expansion and contraction is a big problem for these cues. It may be the adhesives, it may have something to do with wood that is rushed and not seasoned properly or may be partly due to shipping the products to the USA I am not sure. But, materials used in thes cues certainly like to move, in many cases pushing up through the cues finish, which in my opinion appears to be too thin.

One thing that is for certain the manufacture and importation of these products has certainly improved over the last 40 or more years. To compete with this fact many American manufacturers have started having their own Import lines built. This has been very successful for some and a failure for others, all based upon how important customer service is to the US Company involved. Some of these companies have enough faith in their imports to offer a Life Time Guaranty to the original buyer, even for warping of the shaft and butt. For the few extra dollars this may cost it is more than worth that cost if a problem occurs, for the companies who do not offer this I would reconsider buying their products, especially anything over $200.

I know some may not agree with my thoughts on this subject, however, for those who do cue repair on these products on a regular basis it is hard to refute. In the end I think some of these cues are great values and others are just JUNK, but one thing is for certain I Love the money I make fixing them, and that is for certain!!!!!:grin:

JIMO
 
poolplayer2093 said:
Especially when you picture a new guy getting into cue making/repair. i can't imagine trying to buy the equipment and then get by doing repair work.
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Setting up to do basic repairs is a lot cheaper than setting up to make cues.
If you buy cuemaking equipment now, you better have a very good foundation, lineage and/or a full-time job .
People who think they can buy cuemaking machinery and expect people to be knocking on their doors to order their cues are in for a shock.

This industry is not for the faint of heart. Expect heartaches, headaches and low-reward.
Do it for the love of pool and cues, then money second.
 
Why worry about a China cue! A good Billiard Room and a good Cue Repairman can make money!!! Look at Blackburn, Bollman, and etc. Cuemaking a side line.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Setting up to do basic repairs is a lot cheaper than setting up to make cues.
If you buy cuemaking equipment now, you better have a very good foundation, lineage and/or a full-time job .
People who think they can buy cuemaking machinery and expect people to be knocking on their doors to order their cues are in for a shock.

This industry is not for the faint of heart. Expect heartaches, headaches and low-reward.
Do it for the love of pool and cues, then money second.
Click to expand...

Although I have been backed up with cue orders for some time now I consider it my second job. When a chance to do cue repair is presented I drop what ever I happen to be doing on constructing a cue and take care of the repair. Repair work is my base, where most of my profits come from and where many of my cue sales are made. My hourly pay doing cue repair is probably 5 to 10 times the cue building rate. If I had a solid 50 hours of repair work a week you would be able to buy one of my cues second handed only and I would be just like Ferrari Joe and driving a new Ferrari.

Dick
 
If a Player with a five dollars cue or a ten thousand cue want a new traingle tip. It still going to cost the same for the tip. Cue Repairman form a union. Won't any cuemaker, actually become cue repairman? or just become cabinet maker?
 
Quote/Arnot
Another problem is that some Americans would rather repair a foreign made cue then try to make a living building cues. They hurt the American Cuemaker too by fixing up the junk made in China. /Unquote

I humbly take exception to this. You & I have spoken several times and I see no riff btwn us so I feel that I can present this without creating any hard feelings.

For those that don't know, I do all of the repair & custom work for Seybert's. Not once have I told Sey that I won't work on a particular cue because of it's country of origin. About the first time I did, I'd be looking for another job. I actually welcome all the repair work I can get and I don't care what country it comes from. Let's not forget, Predator is made in China and I work for the largest Predator dealer in the world.
I'm also a cue builder and I can tell you without hesitation that the income that I derive from repairing cues far out weighs the income I realize from building. I build because I want to, not for the money.
Not only is repairing lucrative, it's challenging and rewarding. I don't know about warm & fuzzy, but it does make me feel good knowing that I'm giving back to the client, a much better cue than what he had and also because I made that happen.

I do not feel I'm hurting any other cue maker by fixing up the 'junk' made in China. That buyer had a choice when he bought that cue and this is the one he chose. I see no sense in punishing him for that choice by refusing him the service that he now seeks. That's not my job. My job is to repair his cue & if I can put a smile on his face, then we're both happy.

Both you and Pete Tonkin seem to imply that if we all stop working on import cues that within days all of these clients will suddenly be buying American built cues.
Trust me, this just ain't gonna happen. You won't force a buyer into your camp by denying him service on the cue he currently owns. He'll just go somewhere else and you'll have lost both a client and a potential future buyer. If you're lucky, he won't tell too many people about you and your position; but nobody's gotten lucky yet.

The topic of this thread is not a problem unless you prefer to look at it as such. Changing times require flexibility. It's a different global economy. You learn to adapt or you become obsolete.
The American CM should rejoice in the fact that his niche has become more clearly defined for him by the Chinese imports. We are not dictated by the demands of production. We are allowed our pride in hand-selecting the finest woods, etc. and the patience and talent required to build some of the finest cues to be found anywhere in the world. Overseas buyers who want only the best, buy hand-made American cues for a reason. That should be telling you something.
 
KJ Cues said:
Quote/Arnot
Another problem is that some Americans would rather repair a foreign made cue then try to make a living building cues. They hurt the American Cuemaker too by fixing up the junk made in China. /Unquote

I humbly take exception to this. You & I have spoken several times and I see no riff btwn us so I feel that I can present this without creating any hard feelings.

For those that don't know, I do all of the repair & custom work for Seybert's. Not once have I told Sey that I won't work on a particular cue because of it's country of origin. About the first time I did, I'd be looking for another job. I actually welcome all the repair work I can get and I don't care what country it comes from. Let's not forget, Predator is made in China and I work for the largest Predator dealer in the world.
I'm also a cue builder and I can tell you without hesitation that the income that I derive from repairing cues far out weighs the income I realize from building. I build because I want to, not for the money.
Not only is repairing lucrative, it's challenging and rewarding. I don't know about warm & fuzzy, but it does make me feel good knowing that I'm giving back to the client, a much better cue than what he had and also because I made that happen.

I do not feel I'm hurting any other cue maker by fixing up the 'junk' made in China. That buyer had a choice when he bought that cue and this is the one he chose. I see no sense in punishing him for that choice by refusing him the service that he now seeks. That's not my job. My job is to repair his cue & if I can put a smile on his face, then we're both happy.

Both you and Pete Tonkin seem to imply that if we all stop working on import cues that within days all of these clients will suddenly be buying American built cues.
Trust me, this just ain't gonna happen. You won't force a buyer into your camp by denying him service on the cue he currently owns. He'll just go somewhere else and you'll have lost both a client and a potential future buyer. If you're lucky, he won't tell too many people about you and your position; but nobody's gotten lucky yet.

The topic of this thread is not a problem unless you prefer to look at it as such. Changing times require flexibility. It's a different global economy. You learn to adapt or you become obsolete.
The American CM should rejoice in the fact that his niche has become more clearly defined for him by the Chinese imports. We are not dictated by the demands of production. We are allowed our pride in hand-selecting the finest woods, etc. and the patience and talent required to build some of the finest cues to be found anywhere in the world. Overseas buyers who want only the best, buy hand-made American cues for a reason. That should be telling you something.
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Great Post, thanks for sharing!
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
.

You obviously have not seen these new cues from Mcdermott. I have one here, that sells retail for $130. It has decals, but only a cuemaker can tell. This cue looks & plays as good as any American production cue. The finish ,ferrule material & design is really competative...JER
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hi,

I have in this moment 5 new cues from Mcdermott in my repair store (star series and lucky series) so I have my opinion abaut it, goods ferrules and beatiful designs but decals¡¡¡:( it isnt a great quality cue and I dont think that this prices around $130 isnt a serius competence for me or usa cuemakers because we built cues for $350 minimum and decals never........so cheap cues are always in market but it isnt bad for cuemakers because a good cuemaker never built custom cues for less $300-$350, are diferent levels.
 
KJ Cues said:
Quote/Arnot
Another problem is that some Americans would rather repair a foreign made cue then try to make a living building cues. They hurt the American Cuemaker too by fixing up the junk made in China. /Unquote

I humbly take exception to this. You & I have spoken several times and I see no riff btwn us so I feel that I can present this without creating any hard feelings.

For those that don't know, I do all of the repair & custom work for Seybert's. Not once have I told Sey that I won't work on a particular cue because of it's country of origin. About the first time I did, I'd be looking for another job. I actually welcome all the repair work I can get and I don't care what country it comes from. Let's not forget, Predator is made in China and I work for the largest Predator dealer in the world.
I'm also a cue builder and I can tell you without hesitation that the income that I derive from repairing cues far out weighs the income I realize from building. I build because I want to, not for the money.
Not only is repairing lucrative, it's challenging and rewarding. I don't know about warm & fuzzy, but it does make me feel good knowing that I'm giving back to the client, a much better cue than what he had and also because I made that happen.

I do not feel I'm hurting any other cue maker by fixing up the 'junk' made in China. That buyer had a choice when he bought that cue and this is the one he chose. I see no sense in punishing him for that choice by refusing him the service that he now seeks. That's not my job. My job is to repair his cue & if I can put a smile on his face, then we're both happy.

Both you and Pete Tonkin seem to imply that if we all stop working on import cues that within days all of these clients will suddenly be buying American built cues.
Trust me, this just ain't gonna happen. You won't force a buyer into your camp by denying him service on the cue he currently owns. He'll just go somewhere else and you'll have lost both a client and a potential future buyer. If you're lucky, he won't tell too many people about you and your position; but nobody's gotten lucky yet.

The topic of this thread is not a problem unless you prefer to look at it as such. Changing times require flexibility. It's a different global economy. You learn to adapt or you become obsolete.
The American CM should rejoice in the fact that his niche has become more clearly defined for him by the Chinese imports. We are not dictated by the demands of production. We are allowed our pride in hand-selecting the finest woods, etc. and the patience and talent required to build some of the finest cues to be found anywhere in the world. Overseas buyers who want only the best, buy hand-made American cues for a reason. That should be telling you something.
Click to expand...

You can put as much spin on it as you want to but the fact remains that you are not doing anybody any favors by repairing their junk. It just helps to put reputable cuemakers out of business. This junk from China has
almost ruined the low end custom cue market by making the cue dealers wealthy at their client's expense because the cues fall apart very quickly. They warp and the wood shrinks, the ferrules fall off and they pay as much as they would for an American made cue.

I DID NOT say or imply that the problem would go away immediately, because I am not stupid. I do know when someone is shooting themselves in the foot because of all the blood.

I have been a successful full time cuemaker for almost 20 years and I have never repaired one single imported cue. I don't do tips, ferrules, wraps or any other work on junk cues. I tell them to send it back to
the place they purchased it.
 
I think in a way they have filled the niche that american manufacturers have not been able to, so you could say this is a good thing. On the other hand how many jobs would be created here over the past 15 years if the americans could have supplied those low end cues.
And who says that a cue has to cost under $100.00. Maybe it's ok if the cheapest cues cost that or more. Maybe it's ok if the money stays in the USA. And maybe it's ok if an importer doesnt make a huge profit selling a piece of s--t cue in the USA. Cues are just one product that the importation of is hurting american manufacturers. You can blame unions or whatever you want. Someone stated earlier that pretty soon not much will be made here. I hate to tell you be pretty soon came and went. There is a reason we are selling the Chinese american oil to pay our bill with them.
Some of you might remember back 10 or 12 years ago at one of the BCA shows. 3 cuemakers bought an import cue for $180.00 and gave it to Joe Gold. It was a perfect decal copy of one of his $5000.00 cues. Decals are not new and they were very good back then. It would be hard to imagine that they have gotten worse since then.
It used to be that countries traded with other countries for things they did not have or could not make themselves. Did americans forget how to make cues? No, some got greedy. You talk about it now being a global economy, well, it has been a global economy for hundreds of years. Now your just being led to believe that having someone make something that you are perfectly capable of making is a good thing for everyone. It's not. It's good for those that ship the product because now it is going a further distance and it is good for the country that makes it because now they have more employment and it is good for the person importing it because he paid less for it and made a bigger profit by selling it at or near the price that it would have sold for had it been made here.
So, there is money in repairing junk. There is more money in producing the product in the first place. And there is more money for more people. And if you don't think that is so than try doing some math. One factory at a minimum of 10,000 cues a month at an average wholesale price of ? $100.00. That's only a million dollars gross a month. Are you and everyone you know combined doing that much in repairs a month? Even good cheap cues need tips and other repairs so your repairs would not go down. When the cue is to poorly made to even repair then what? Your out your time messing with the thing and trying to make the customer understand what a piece he bought. Some of them will think your the one with just can't fix it, some will thank you and go buy another one, some may actually listen and buy something nicer. Like a Lucasi or something he has heard such good things about.
Is the problem going to go away? Not in my lifetime. Can I do anything about the problem? Teach the players one at a time and make the best product I can make. Most americans seem to make uninformed purchases for what they consider disposable items. In their minds they have an idea that the $150.00 cue may not be the best. But the salesman does nothing to inform them. His interests are with the importer not the custom cue maker.
 
Chinese are here~!

Well, we only have our greedy corporate selves to blame. We've gone into China and introduced and influenced the manufacturer process, we've outsource so much to them and given them the "ideas" and "specs" and now they've just taken that and turned into their favor.

We've outsourced the work to them and now they are a huge competitor, and so the grasshopper has now become the master.

With the modernization of China, and using all the quality standards ISO's and Six Sigmas, etc, they are blowing up.

Here is a country that has good work ethics, poor economic situation, and thus they strive for work or do work for less. Even at less money, the conversion from USD still gives them a great living, a better, a best standard of living they've ever experienced. Their machines, lathes, Mills, and production process have gotten pretty darn good quality at minimum price isn't going to stop here.


Why this country and others strive is because they have a bit of nationalism and take pride in their work and who they are.

America sadly, has a price. American greed of 1 person deteriorated the country. The Chinese government gives them the encentives to move out of farming and go into Beijing and start business! The US government monopolizes and takes out all the small businesses and pays large corporations raises for failing.

They are here and staying.
 
I've had three Chinese cues and they all warped. Maybe if I find a 20 year old Chinese cue that still rolls straight I might consider buying it.
 
CaromKing said:
Well, we only have our greedy corporate selves to blame. We've gone into China and introduced and influenced the manufacturer process, we've outsource so much to them and given them the "ideas" and "specs" and now they've just taken that and turned into their favor.

We've outsourced the work to them and now they are a huge competitor, and so the grasshopper has now become the master.

With the modernization of China, and using all the quality standards ISO's and Six Sigmas, etc, they are blowing up.

Here is a country that has good work ethics, poor economic situation, and thus they strive for work or do work for less. Even at less money, the conversion from USD still gives them a great living, a better, a best standard of living they've ever experienced. Their machines, lathes, Mills, and production process have gotten pretty darn good quality at minimum price isn't going to stop here.


Why this country and others strive is because they have a bit of nationalism and take pride in their work and who they are.

America sadly, has a price. American greed of 1 person deteriorated the country. The Chinese government gives them the encentives to move out of farming and go into Beijing and start business! The US government monopolizes and takes out all the small businesses and pays large corporations raises for failing.

They are here and staying.
Click to expand...

And with that you hit the nail right on the head.
 
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