The Draw Shot

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
Nice results and nice level cue, but he jerks his shot stroke. Works great for him, but I wouldn't recommend copying that part.

Blackjack:
I agree. Develop the accuracy first - once you master that, you can add all that fancy chit. If you watch Keith McCready, he has a similar jerking motion to his draw. I idolized the way Keith would move the cue ball and copied a lot of that, I asked a lot of questions, and then worked on it until it was second nature. A lot of it has to do with the way you grip the cue to get different effects on the cue ball. It's not something you would be taught in a class on proper mechanics - but it gets the job done. Keith has posted about these methods on several occasions here on the forum - and IMO, it is priceless information.

Thanks for taking my comment in the spirit it was intended. After posting I was afraid my careless choice of words ("jerk") might offend.

I use a loose wrist with some snap but with a "normal" slower backstroke. Do you use the short quick backstroke purposely to accentuate the wrist snap? Do you also use that backstroke with non-snap shots?

pj
chgo

 

[Blackjack]

Keith and the grip -

I agree. Develop the accuracy first - once you master that, you can add all that fancy chit. If you watch Keith McCready, he has a similar jerking motion to his draw. I idolized the way Keith would move the cue ball and copied a lot of that, I asked a lot of questions, and then worked on it until it was second nature. A lot of it has to do with the way you grip the cue to get different effects on the cue ball. It's not something you would be taught in a class on proper mechanics - but it gets the job done. Keith has posted about these methods on several occasions here on the forum - and IMO, it is priceless information.

Here is more information on what I described in my last post. It is one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum -

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1212503&postcount=17

Hey, Noel. My girlfriend showed me this thread tonight, and I am really, really proud of you beating those girls. That is quite a feat to do what you did, but you know what? You woke up a lot of people, I'll bet, winning that 6,000 dollars. How does it feel? Did you get out of the hotel with the money? I hope you did. It's tough for me to get out of the casinos with money, especially if I won $6,000. I'd have to take a $2,000 shot at something. LOL.

The side-armed stroke came to me at an early age. I was so small, I actually stood on boxes starting out playing pool with my father when I was 8 years old. I believe the side-armed stroke is the way to go, and it looks like you have one too. Ralph Greenleaf, who was way before our time, also had a side-armed stroke and was noted as probably one of the greatest players that ever lived. Wimpy Lassiter told me that himself. That goes way back. Ha-ha.

There's a lot of people that have to stand straight up and down and don't ever get over the ball properly. They get body-hooked! We have an advantage on them. We're side-winders. We're able to get down on the ball better.

One tip that you may want to use, if you don't use it already, I like to twirl my fingers on the hand that holds the cue and twist the cue around sometimes. Don't hold the cue tightly. You can experiment with a lot more shots when you twirl. It helps a lot with your spin shots, top right, top left, low right, and let's not forget about your inside lefts. Keep twirling, and you'll find that you can get to feel these shots a lot better and make them with a lot more ease, once you master all the twirl feels. Trust me, I did it all the time when I was experimenting in practice. It really works.

If you have any questions that I can help you with, feel free to contact me. It takes a lot of heart, dedication, and hard work to win that tournament. Hope you win another one. Let me know if I can ever help you. I'd be more than happy to.

 

[Dudley]

Right on all points - a rarity on this topic.

pj
chgo

Thanks PJ, :thumbup:

Dudley

 

[elvicash]

Thanks Dana, I agree. Didn't mean to open a can of worms. Lot's of drill's/video's to learn from. My "problem" seems to be an inconsistent follow through? Follow through is huge in any "throwing sport" and that's what I do, throw the cue at the cue ball with the help of a bridge albeit underhanded. I hold the cue very lightly just on the fingertips. That's a whole 'nether bag of worms, how to grasp the cue?

I am by no means an instructor but I love this game and do share my knowledge when possible especially if the situation is positive. I tire of threads where info and ideas could be shared and some posters want to attack others directly rather than the ideas and techniques. That being said the draw shot is critical and well worth talking about.

How to grip the cue stick. I would suggest for a player who is early in development consider the following thoughts or points

Thumb and index finger are the primary points of contact,perhaps very light with the middle finger too at address
The hand opens up or flares out towards the butt cap of the cue.
The grip pressure is light, the cue is not tightly squeezed since the hand is flared at the back
At address the knuckles are level with the floor
At the finsh of the stroke the knuckles are pointing up some noticable amount

When training it might be easier to just do the most simple thing first until you can draw the ball consistently. Straight between side pockets OB ball out a diamond, CB on center spot 2 diamonds from the side. Ball lined up perfectly straight between pockets. Shoot the OB straight in with draw, make a full hit, you should be able to draw back into the oppisitte side. You can easily do this a high percentage of the time with some practice. All this requires is a conssitent full hit, low tip on the CB and a straight stroke.

I know you can do this post a video so we can see you drawing the ball.

 

[billf59]

draw stroke thanks

I have been reading this thread for the last couple dayes and the draw has always been a weak shot for me but keeping up with what all the posters have said heer and trying different things my draw has greatly improved thanks to all

 

[The Renfro]

I have been reading this thread for the last couple dayes and the draw has always been a weak shot for me but keeping up with what all the posters have said heer and trying different things my draw has greatly improved thanks to all

I am glad there was useful information mixed in with all the shots we were taking at each other... It's amazing how fired up you can become over such a simple topic..... Get us some videos posted when you get the "super" draw working =) Until then good shooting....

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I agree. Develop the accuracy first - once you master that, you can add all that fancy chit. If you watch Keith McCready, he has a similar jerking motion to his draw. I idolized the way Keith would move the cue ball and copied a lot of that, I asked a lot of questions, and then worked on it until it was second nature. A lot of it has to do with the way you grip the cue to get different effects on the cue ball. It's not something you would be taught in a class on proper mechanics - but it gets the job done. Keith has posted about these methods on several occasions here on the forum - and IMO, it is priceless information.

If someone feels like they have to use their wrist, IMO it's fine as long as there is only backward-forward movement and no side to side curling or rolling of the wrist. This causes you to hit the cue ball less accurately in my experience.

 

[C.Milian]

Tell that to Mike Sigel. He is the one who taught me this. I didn't suggest jacking up the butt of your cue, did I? And yes, I remember, you are the one who taught me to look at the cue ball while shooting LOL. I listen to good instruction and not to piss poor instructors.

Maybe you don't like this method because Fast Larry also advises it :grin:. Or, like I have always said, you are too stubborn to learn anything. FL can draw the ball better than you ever dreamed of, and with more consistency.

You will never learn Scott. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, heh?

He also said eight ball is the toughest game.

 

[JoeW]

I have been reading this thread for the last couple dayes and the draw has always been a weak shot for me but keeping up with what all the posters have said heer and trying different things my draw has greatly improved thanks to all

Which of the ideas presented here helped to improve your ability to draw the cue ball?

I ask because others might find some use from the ideas that helped you.

 

[billf59]

draw shot

thanks for asking joeW the ones I found helped me were the d.r dave video and all of scott lee post and the black jack stroke video + I went back and looked at a bert kinster video 60 min work out I did not like all the basking some of the posters were doing. why can,t we just try to help one another with no bashing when some one like me ask for help thanks

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I haven't read this entire thread but couple things that really helped me-

1. Make sure you stroke through the cue ball. When I first started practicing this I would pretend the cue ball was several inches in front of its actual spot. That way I would always shoot through it

2. Stay down on your shot. Obviously make sure you get out of the way when the cue ball comes back but the biggest mistake I see people make is they jump up after shooting a draw shot which absolutely kills it

 

[Neil]

..................

 

[No Limit]

Lots of useful information that's helped me with trying out draw shots on the table. I'm hitting the cue ball lower now on my stroke, but I still accidentally jump the ball instead of drawing it. I think it's just working on having a smooth stroke instead of just punching or slightly pausing as I see the tip contact the cue ball. I really need to work on just following through all the way on the final stroke. When I do it right, it really draws back as it should

 

[sfleinen]

Lots of useful information that's helped me with trying out draw shots on the table. I'm hitting the cue ball lower now on my stroke, but I still accidentally jump the ball instead of drawing it. I think it's just working on having a smooth stroke instead of just punching or slightly pausing as I see the tip contact the cue ball. I really need to work on just following through all the way on the final stroke. When I do it right, it really draws back as it should

No Limit:

Glad that this thread has turned the corner once again into a useful information-sharing thread.

While you're practicing the stroke needed for a good draw shot, here's one tip you might want to try, that'll help break you out of the habit of "focusing on the cue ball" (which leads to jabbing and poking, as you noted). That is, to PRETEND THE CUE BALL ISN'T EVEN THERE. Pick a spot on the cloth just past the cue ball (say, a few inches), and make believe there's a fly on the cloth that you want to hit with the tip of the cue. Then stroke to hit that fly. This will do two things for you:

1. Break your fixation with the cue ball during cue delivery (i.e. breaking your "wanting to look" at the cue ball as the cue tip impacts it), which gets you one step closer to a proper PEP (personal eye pattern);

2. Show you the proper "feeling" of what it's like to "stroke through" the cue ball. It actually feels much more natural than poking or jabbing at it. Once you get this feeling down pat, you can then focus on adding a bit more snap to your stroke to get a stronger draw, or when you need to kill the cue ball (i.e. drag shot, for position).

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean

 

[BasementDweller]

I also agree about jacking the butt up slightly for draw being a myth. I think this originates from players with a poor [inaccurate] stroke, that are unable to accurately hit the cue ball low while the cue is as level as possible. So they jack-up, and the feeling of "getting a meaty hit on the cue ball" (i.e. hitting it down into the cloth) satisfies something subconsciously.

-Sean

I've wondered about this. I tend to think that jacking up the butt end of the cue on a draw shot would give you more backspin since what you are doing is essentially jumping the cue ball off the bed of the table (ever so slightly). Wouldn't this mean that less energy would be removed from the cue ball from the friction caused by the cloth?

I understand this may be an insignificant amount of energy and I wouldn't suggest that anyone jacks up for this reason since you would be adding more potential error into the stroke by jacking up (masse effect).

I'm sure this has already been discussed before and determined one way or another. Just thinking out loud.

 

[BrokeHustler]

just practicing drawing the ball as much as possible then tone it down to where you want it.

 

[El Diablo]

I didn't read the whole thread so it's probably been said already, but loosening the wrist on the stroke is key.

 

[C.Milian]

I didn't read the whole thread so it's probably been said already, but loosening the wrist on the stroke is key.

You mean like a wet noodle?

 

[BrokeHustler]

just see the shot and then just do it,

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've wondered about this. I tend to think that jacking up the butt end of the cue on a draw shot would give you more backspin since what you are doing is essentially jumping the cue ball off the bed of the table (ever so slightly). Wouldn't this mean that less energy would be removed from the cue ball from the friction caused by the cloth?

I understand this may be an insignificant amount of energy and I wouldn't suggest that anyone jacks up for this reason since you would be adding more potential error into the stroke by jacking up (masse effect).

I'm sure this has already been discussed before and determined one way or another. Just thinking out loud.

I don't think the CB leaving the cloth helps reduce total friction because friction is increased by the extra downward force initially and each time the CB hits the cloth again as it bounces. So I don't think you can get more overall length of draw by jacking up (in fact, I think you get less).

However, hitting downward does produce more spin revolutions for the same amount of forward travel (a greater spin/speed ratio), which means you can get a steeper draw angle and can get more draw for the same amount of object ball movement. This can be useful for some safeties and position play, but it's usually a negative tradeoff for shotmaking accuracy and therefore usually only voluntarily used when the OB is close.

pj
chgo