The ethical thread (without racist jabber)

Peer

Norwegian in California
Silver Member
AtLarge said:
"Hypothetical" scenario.
A widow is disposing of some of her recently deceased husband's possessions, including an old pool cue. The cue-ignorant widow is advised to contact Knowledgeable Cue Dealer (KCD) to discuss the cue. KCD goes to her house, inspects the cue, and asks her how much she wants for it. She says she doesn't know, it has just been lying around in the attic for most of the past 35 years, ....., how about $250? KCD pays her the money and leaves with the cue.

The next day, KCD calls one of his cue-collecting customers and sells the highly inlaid Balabushka cue for $25,000.

Was KCD unethical, just lucky, or something else?

Patrick Johnson said:
You guys are jumping to lots of conclusions.

1. Nobody said "KCD" was referred as an appraiser or advisor. He may have gone to her explicitly as a buyer, in which case he's entitled to make the best deal he can.

2. Just because she's a widow doesn't mean she's needy or even bereaved. She may be a rich nag who killed her late husband for the inheritance.

About 90 percent of this sad story is in your heads.




Yes, it's in our heads, and since I often end up playing the devil's advocate (some of you might even think I aspire to become the devil himself) I must say that I like Patrick Johnson's scenario, especially since the initial post (above) didn't describe this woman much more than being "cue-ignorant" and "widowed". Hence, I choose to think that she killed her husband and spent his life-insurance on crack.

In fact, I was actually in a slightly similar situation (sans the crack) as I was buying a 120 year old Brunswick off someone who didn't really know the value of this cue. However, the difference was that I ended up paying top dollars for it, not because I'm ethical or a good person but simply because I'm a fool and an idiot. To make things worse, I'm now having it "bastardized" by no other than Ryan Theewen (Rat Cues) in the hopes of converting it into a real playing cue, (Ryan, I'm still waiting ;^)

-- peer


By the way, I happen to know that Mr. Bumpypickle has no friends and lives alone in a van by the river. He also microwaves cute puppies for breakfast every morning.
 

poolplayer2093

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Peer said:
Yes, it's in our heads, and since I often end up playing the devil's advocate (some of you might even think I aspire to become the devil himself) I must say that I like Patrick Johnson's scenario, especially since the initial post (above) didn't describe this woman much more than being "cue-ignorant" and "widowed". Hence, I choose to think that she killed her husband and spent his life-insurance on crack.

In fact, I was actually in a slightly similar situation (sans the crack) as I was buying a 120 year old Brunswick off someone who didn't really know the value of this cue. However, the difference was that I ended up paying top dollars for it, not because I'm ethical or a good person but simply because I'm a fool and an idiot. To make things worse, I'm now having it "bastardized" by no other than Ryan Theewen (Rat Cues) in the hopes of converting it into a real playing cue, (Ryan, I'm still waiting ;^)

-- peer


By the way, I happen to know that Mr. Bumpypickle has no friends and lives alone in a van by the river. He also microwaves cute puppies for breakfast every morning.

is that van by the river from an old chris farley skit?

what's up with the pictures? i never really cared for old brunswicks but they're growing on me now.
 

Jadssons

Rehab is for Quitters
Silver Member
To intentionally cheat someone is unethical...plain and simple. You can try and sugar-coat it all you want, but most everyone knows the difference between right and wrong.
 

poolplayer2093

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jadssons said:
To intentionally cheat someone is unethical...plain and simple. You can try and sugar-coat it all you want, but most everyone knows the difference between right and wrong.


I surrender on this one. what the cue dealer did was unethical. life, raw deals, and rough times just have me jaded these days
 

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
poolplayer2093 said:
I surrender on this one. what the cue dealer did was unethical. life, raw deals, and rough times just have me jaded these days

Don't give in to it man. Life will knock you around but if you let your hard times become an excuse to become one of the thugs/thieves you'll hate yourself. Take it from a geezer who's done some things that shouldn't have been done. It adds up and some day you have to own up... pay back where possible and change. Or... just give up and become a real criminal.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
Peer said:
To make things worse, I'm now having it "bastardized" by no other than Ryan Theewen (Rat Cues) in the hopes of converting it into a real playing cue, (Ryan, I'm still waiting ;^)

-- peer

Peer I will make two suggestions you:

1. Pick up the fliping phone, and call Ryan ask him how your project is coming, Ryan does talk to people, and IMHO is very honest.

2. Realize you are now in American, and Norway were everything was perfect in your mind.
 
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Mowem down

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Were do you draw the line...if the lady was rich is it that big of a deal.
The way the story was told does sound like the buyer swindled the lady, but what if she did not really care, she just wanted to get rid of the cue.

A guy answers a ad for a snooker table 100$. Goes and looks at it sees the Brunswick Balk Collender logo, asks the guy how much the guy says 100, the buyer gives him 100 and loads it up. Should he of asked do you know what this is, how much its worth, ect. Or just figure from the guys house and cars and tons of toys the guy didnt really care and just wanted to get rid of it.

I know a pool room owner that posts on here, his one pocket table he got in just that manner. He has no problem telling people the lady he got it from didnt know what she had. Did he rob her or get a good deal.
 

Ironman317

Cash Me In....
Silver Member
Mowem down said:
Were do you draw the line...if the lady was rich is it that big of a deal.
The way the story was told does sound like the buyer swindled the lady, but what if she did not really care, she just wanted to get rid of the cue.

A guy answers a ad for a snooker table 100$. Goes and looks at it sees the Brunswick Balk Collender logo, asks the guy how much the guy says 100, the buyer gives him 100 and loads it up. Should he of asked do you know what this is, how much its worth, ect. Or just figure from the guys house and cars and tons of toys the guy didnt really care and just wanted to get rid of it.

I know a pool room owner that posts on here, his one pocket table he got in just that manner. He has no problem telling people the lady he got it from didnt know what she had. Did he rob her or get a good deal.


How could she have given him a "good deal" if she didnt know what she had? :rolleyes:
 

mantis99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I still don't see any question here! The answer to the scenario is not dependent on the situation of the woman, whether she is well off, needy, etc. The answer should be the same for any of the scenarios she could be in. It is simple human decency not to basically steal the cue from her. Whether it is her responsibility to thoroughly investigate the value of the cue is irrelevant. What was done here was only slightly under stealing. If you informed her of the value of the cue and she still wanted to unload it for a song, then lucky for you, but if you know the value and do not tell her, then I fell that lacks moral fiber.

There have actually been court cases like this where the person buying the object was forced to give it back or pay fair market value. A while back a gentleman sold a Nolan Ryan rookie card to a kid while watching his friends store while his friend stepped out for lunch. I don't know the exact amounts, but the card was sold for someting like $19 instead of $1900, and a judge made the kid give it back, or pay the full amount.

A lot of the problems in this country could be alleviated if everyone lived by a simple morality that would have told this lady the truth. All of our social programs and economic models are flawed due to the human error of things like this at all socio-economic levels. During the past elections, a lot has come up regarding what our country needs, but almost everything fails when people live by this standard. I hear people like this complain about how they are under paid and mistreated by the companies they work for, then turn around and do stuff like this to others.
 
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Dartman

Pro Billiards
Silver Member
Mowem down said:
Were do you draw the line...
A guy answers a ad for a snooker table 100$. ...
IMO there's no line to draw.
Seller places an ad and states the price. No "ethics" are involved. End of story.
Big difference between that and someone calling a "knowledgeable dealer" to "discuss" a cue per the other thread.
 

Mowem down

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ironman317 said:
How could she have given him a "good deal" if she didnt know what she had? :rolleyes:
should he have told her she wasnt asking enough for the table (cue)...isnt that the ?..
 

Mowem down

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dartman said:
IMO there's no line to draw.
Seller places an ad and states the price. No "ethics" are involved. End of story.
Big difference between that and someone calling a "knowledgeable dealer" to "discuss" a cue per the other thread.
I had to go read the op agian...I did think it had as much info about the deal the first time I read it..If the guy new what the cue was he robbed her blind for sure..I didnt remember anything about "discuss the cue"
 

maldito

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He was called as a consultant and I feel he was unethical because he was called as "knowledgeable cue consultant" - better yet call at least 3 different consultants when you have paintings, jewlry, etc. even property for sale . If you walk into a garage sale or an item being advertised for sale and there is a price tag on it then you buy it if you feel it is a buy or you can negoitate with the buyer if you feel it is over priced.
By the way "Peer" you did the right thing because at the time you felt it was the right thing to do and yhou did it. That cue will bring you good fortune (what goes around comes around).
 

Peer

Norwegian in California
Silver Member
CocoboloCowboy said:
Peer I will make two suggestions you:

1. Pick up the fliping phone, and call Ryan ask him how your project is coming, Ryan does talk to people, and IMHO is very honest.

2. Realize you are now in American, and Norway were everything was perfect in your mind.


Oh brother, let me spell it out for you:
My entire post was tongue-in-cheek. Clearly this guy ripped off the widow, and clearly Ryan and I speak regularly on the phone, (he's the friggin' best cue maker I've ever dealt with, constantly keeping me updated on the work progress). And no, I don't believe this widow was a crack whore or that she murdered her husband. Hope this is now clear enough for you.

I regress, humor and sarcasm never seem to go well on this pent-up forum.

-- peer
 

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
Peer said:
Yes, it's in our heads, and since I often end up playing the devil's advocate (some of you might even think I aspire to become the devil himself) I must say that I like Patrick Johnson's scenario, especially since the initial post (above) didn't describe this woman much more than being "cue-ignorant" and "widowed". Hence, I choose to think that she killed her husband and spent his life-insurance on crack.

In fact, I was actually in a slightly similar situation (sans the crack) as I was buying a 120 year old Brunswick off someone who didn't really know the value of this cue. However, the difference was that I ended up paying top dollars for it, not because I'm ethical or a good person but simply because I'm a fool and an idiot. To make things worse, I'm now having it "bastardized" by no other than Ryan Theewen (Rat Cues) in the hopes of converting it into a real playing cue, (Ryan, I'm still waiting ;^)

-- peer


By the way, I happen to know that Mr. Bumpypickle has no friends and lives alone in a van by the river. He also microwaves cute puppies for breakfast every morning.

I have read this thread and the other thread, and it brings an old saying to mind. I use to work for an old farmer back in Missouri when I was a teenager. This old gentleman was very very wise along with being 85 years old. Now his favorite saying was that Locks keep honest people honest. Now these threads only further show how true this statement actually is. Now the other thread that this one alludes to clearly shows how easy some one will take advantage of another just because they clearly know that they won't be caught or exposed for their actions. Now it doesn't mean that under normal circumstances ( When they know that they may get caught) that are always dishonest in thought and deed.

It is kinda like a person who has never stolen anything in they entire life. One day they are in line in a store and another customer drops a $100 bill in front of them without knowing it. Now no one else sees this happen, except the person above who at this point in their life really needs the extra money. So this honest person knowing they will not be caught places their foot on the $100 bill and waits to carefully pick it up. In most cases this same person would be afraid to act in this manner, but with no Chance of being caught sometimes a person inhibitions melt away.

This is where check and balances (Locked Door) come into how people act. Given the same situation with a $100 bill laying on a car seat with the windows up and the doors locked the person above would have never have attempted to gain access by breaking the window or by forcing the door. Where a thief would not hesitate to do whatever was necessary to get the money.

In my opinion the person taking advantage of the the old Lady to get a cue he knew was valuable for almost nothing is a Scum Bag. Given a situation where he thought or knew that his actions would result in exposure and consequences he would have thought about it and maybe he would have handled it differently. However, if he is a thief which may also be the case nothing would stop his actions no matter what.

I personally think the guy is a scum bag, I have people come into my business all the time who would like information or who want to sell cues. I treat people like I want to be treated and that is all I will say on this subject, oh and by the way, my Business is doing very very well, I don't know maybe it is Carma!!!!!!!!! I also think that some people have no feeling where others are concerned, but by doing what is right I always sleep very well, and that is my only concern.
 
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daveb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The simple answer to the original question is that an ethical person wouldn't even have to ask the question in the first place.
 

Dawgie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
he was called to the house to discuss these cues. It reads like he didn't fulfill his mission and got greedy and saw an opportunity to steal from the woman.

In behaving in this manner he also committed a few of the Seven Deadly Sins. He will pay for doing this in one way or another.

He could have been fair and made a deal with her and shared in this valuable cue. He could have said something like this ~ Lady, I would like to broker this cue for you. It does have value and I would like to sell it for you. I believe I could get around 20K for this cue and I simply ask that you and I share on a 50% / 50% split. She could then negoiate from there. If you can agree with this proposal I can most likely have the money to you within 2 weeks or less. Do we have a deal?
 

Dartman

Pro Billiards
Silver Member
Mowem down said:
I had to go read the op agian...I did think it had as much info about the deal the first time I read it..If the guy new what the cue was he robbed her blind for sure..I didnt remember anything about "discuss the cue"
From the OP -
"The cue-ignorant widow is advised to contact Knowledgeable Cue Dealer (KCD) to discuss the cue.
KCD goes to her house, inspects the cue, and asks her how much she wants for it."
 

Big Perm

1pkt 14.1 8 Banks 9 10
Silver Member
mantis99 said:
I still don't see any question here! The answer to the scenario is not dependent on the situation of the woman, whether she is well off, needy, etc. The answer should be the same for any of the scenarios she could be in. It is simple human decency not to basically steal the cue from her. Whether it is her responsibility to thoroughly investigate the value of the cue is irrelevant. What was done here was only slightly under stealing. If you informed her of the value of the cue and she still wanted to unload it for a song, then lucky for you, but if you know the value and do not tell her, then I fell that lacks moral fiber.

There have actually been court cases like this where the person buying the object was forced to give it back or pay fair market value. A while back a gentleman sold a Nolan Ryan rookie card to a kid while watching his friends store while his friend stepped out for lunch. I don't know the exact amounts, but the card was sold for someting like $19 instead of $1900, and a judge made the kid give it back, or pay the full amount.

A lot of the problems in this country could be alleviated if everyone lived by a simple morality that would have told this lady the truth. All of our social programs and economic models are flawed due to the human error of things like this at all socio-economic levels. During the past elections, a lot has come up regarding what our country needs, but almost everything fails when people live by this standard. I hear people like this complain about how they are under paid and mistreated by the companies they work for, then turn around and do stuff like this to others.

X2, well said.....people seem to think it's OK to take advantage of others, utilizing justifications of character flaws or situation......right up until the point when it's them getting the short end of the stick....
 
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