The ethical thread (without racist jabber)

[gunzby]

Still unethical and morally wrong. Regardless of circumstances he is screwing her. The only scenario I can see where it is balanced is if both of them didn't know what the cue was worth.

I've been dirt poor and well off. One thing I've learned through the course of that is that no matter how poor or rich you are a lot of people judge you by your word.

Had it been me I would have made this offer. You can pay me $250 to give you an estimate on the value and sell it yourself, or I will give you $250, sell it and give you a 25% commission on the sale.

*edit* If I knew the lady or her husband it would have of course me telling her the value and offering to sell it on Ebay for her.

 

[Mowem down]

From the OP -
"The cue-ignorant widow is advised to contact Knowledgeable Cue Dealer (KCD) to discuss the cue.
KCD goes to her house, inspects the cue, and asks her how much she wants for it."

I must have not made it clear that I did not remember the op saying anything about "discuss the cue"...Thats why after reading your first reply I went and read the thing to make sure I was getting your point...I thought I was agreeing with what you said but maybe not.

 

[classiccues]

As a cue dealer, let me ask.. What is my compensation for my knowledge? I have spent numerous hours, unbelievable dollars, to accumulate the knowledge that allows me to know a Szamboti, or Bushka, by merely checking a handful of items. As any other appraiser, what is my compensation? Now I agree for someone to come in as an appraiser, and buy the cue from this woman deceitfully, it is bad juju.

But now since this happens to me constantly. In fact Mark and I were discussing this very topic recently. At Valley Forge people expect this service for NOTHING. When you tell them you charge for this service, they look at you like you have two heads.

I think our solution will be on the spot letters, they will cost $ 100.00 OR 10% of the appraised value. Whichever is higher. WHY? Because with that knowledge that person may make a lot of money. Why should I give out this information for NOTHING? I tell a guy his Bushka is worth 12k, when he had NO idea, now he has protection. That protection must have a value, no? Does my mechanic fix my car for nothing? No.. Do I remodel kitchens and bathrooms for nothing? No. Why should cues be any different?

JV

 

[Jaden]

I agree....

As a cue dealer, let me ask.. What is my compensation for my knowledge? I have spent numerous hours, unbelievable dollars, to accumulate the knowledge that allows me to know a Szamboti, or Bushka, by merely checking a handful of items. As any other appraiser, what is my compensation? Now I agree for someone to come in as an appraiser, and buy the cue from this woman deceitfully, it is bad juju.

But now since this happens to me constantly. In fact Mark and I were discussing this very topic recently. At Valley Forge people expect this service for NOTHING. When you tell them you charge for this service, they look at you like you have two heads.

I think our solution will be on the spot letters, they will cost $ 100.00 OR 10% of the appraised value. Whichever is higher. WHY? Because with that knowledge that person may make a lot of money. Why should I give out this information for NOTHING? I tell a guy his Bushka is worth 12k, when he had NO idea, now he has protection. That protection must have a value, no? Does my mechanic fix my car for nothing? No.. Do I remodel kitchens and bathrooms for nothing? No. Why should cues be any different?

JV

The only problem with this, is that if an appraiser is unscrupulous, he can over appraise the value of the cue to get his ten percent on a cue that is not able to fetch the appraised value.

In this case I would suggest having an agreed upon contract, where the seller agrees to pay either the one hundred dollars or ten percent of the selling price and the appraiser would get the opportunity to broker the sale in the event that the owner is unable to sell the cue at the appraised value.

Jaden.

 

[classiccues]

The only problem with this, is that if an appraiser is unscrupulous, he can over appraise the value of the cue to get his ten percent on a cue that is not able to fetch the appraised value.

In this case I would suggest having an agreed upon contract, where the seller agrees to pay either the one hundred dollars or ten percent of the selling price and the appraiser would get the opportunity to broker the sale in the event that the owner is unable to sell the cue at the appraised value.

Jaden.

Jaden,

I agree, but an appraiser that might want to obtain the item won't over appraise it, you just have to be comfortable with whom you choose.

Here lies the problem, the appraiser won't give an opinion for a "possible" sale, that won't happen. If he is allowed to broker the deal, then he may have some latitude on the compensation package. But he won't agree on a golden carrot arrangement, for fear of non-payment.

JV

 

[Scott Lee]

Okay, how about this for a "hypothetical" situation? A very well known cue dealer is approached by a longtime friend, to sell a high dollar cue, as a 'favor' to him personally (this particular cue is the seller's "prize possession"). The seller is in a bind, as he has had major surgery, and needed money fast. The seller says to his cue dealer friend, "I need you to get at least $10K for the cue." The dealer sells the cue ONE day later, for a very high price, gives $10K to the seller, and pockets more than that himself, as profit on the deal. Is the cue dealer being disreputable, in this instance...knowing that his "friend" is in such serious financial straights...or just amoral? Let me sweeten the pot a little...the seller is godfather to one of the dealer's kids. How would YOU feel, if you were the seller? I know I'd feel 'cheated'...even if it wasn't a friend.

As a cue dealer, let me ask.. What is my compensation for my knowledge? I have spent numerous hours, unbelievable dollars, to accumulate the knowledge that allows me to know a Szamboti, or Bushka, by merely checking a handful of items. As any other appraiser, what is my compensation? Now I agree for someone to come in as an appraiser, and buy the cue from this woman deceitfully, it is bad juju.

But now since this happens to me constantly. In fact Mark and I were discussing this very topic recently. At Valley Forge people expect this service for NOTHING. When you tell them you charge for this service, they look at you like you have two heads.

I think our solution will be on the spot letters, they will cost $ 100.00 OR 10% of the appraised value. Whichever is higher. WHY? Because with that knowledge that person may make a lot of money. Why should I give out this information for NOTHING? I tell a guy his Bushka is worth 12k, when he had NO idea, now he has protection. That protection must have a value, no? Does my mechanic fix my car for nothing? No.. Do I remodel kitchens and bathrooms for nothing? No. Why should cues be any different?

JV

 

[classiccues]

Okay, how about this for a "hypothetical" situation? A very well known cue dealer is approached by a longtime friend, to sell a high dollar cue, as a 'favor' to him personally (this particular cue is the seller's "prize possession"). The seller is in a bind, as he has had major surgery, and needed money fast. The seller says to his cue dealer friend, "I need you to get at least $10K for the cue." The dealer sells the cue ONE day later, for a very high price, gives $10K to the seller, and pockets more than that himself, as profit on the deal. Is the cue dealer being disreputable, in this instance...knowing that his "friend" is in such serious financial straights...or just amoral? Let me sweeten the pot a little...the seller is godfather to one of the dealer's kids. How would YOU feel, if you were the seller? I know I'd feel 'cheated'...even if it wasn't a friend.

Scott,
I can only speak for myself.. if I was selling a cue for someone that was cash strapped, I would give the guy ALL the money. I wouldn't even take a commission. I have done this very recently for friends and I ain't their kids Godparents. I am not that well off, mega rich, either, but I believe in doing the right thing when I can.

Which is why if I was instructed by a judge to give someone x amount of money to settle a suite or judgment I would. I wouldn't lie to the person holding the cue saying I am going to send the money as the JUDGE told me, and then don't just because I think I am entitled, or for some reason I think the other person is well off. This doesn't matter, what matters is your word, and there is no substitution for that, because in the end it's all that you have. Plus I respect the law, if it was decided, then it is so. Even if I don't agree.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

As a cue dealer, let me ask.. What is my compensation for my knowledge? I have spent numerous hours, unbelievable dollars, to accumulate the knowledge that allows me to know a Szamboti, or Bushka, by merely checking a handful of items. As any other appraiser, what is my compensation? Now I agree for someone to come in as an appraiser, and buy the cue from this woman deceitfully, it is bad juju.

But now since this happens to me constantly. In fact Mark and I were discussing this very topic recently. At Valley Forge people expect this service for NOTHING. When you tell them you charge for this service, they look at you like you have two heads.

I think our solution will be on the spot letters, they will cost $ 100.00 OR 10% of the appraised value. Whichever is higher. WHY? Because with that knowledge that person may make a lot of money. Why should I give out this information for NOTHING? I tell a guy his Bushka is worth 12k, when he had NO idea, now he has protection. That protection must have a value, no? Does my mechanic fix my car for nothing? No.. Do I remodel kitchens and bathrooms for nothing? No. Why should cues be any different?

JV

Right. People should not be asked to work for free.

This whole thread reminds me of that movie called "Home Improvement" or something like that where the real estate agent is also the contractor is also the building inspector.

In this situation, KCD, wearing the appraiser hat should ask for a fee or simply tell the woman that he doesn't appraise cues and ask her for an offer.

I think your idea of on the spot letters - preferably notarized (becoming a notary is relatively easy) is the way to go. Don't know about the fee structure but it seems to me that a flat fee would be the way to go unless the client wanted to enter into a brokerage deal with you on the item you are appraising.

 

[cueaddicts]

"Hypothetical" scenario.

A widow is disposing of some of her recently deceased husband's possessions, including an old pool cue. The cue-ignorant widow is advised to contact Knowledgeable Cue Dealer (KCD) to discuss the cue. KCD goes to her house, inspects the cue, and asks her how much she wants for it. She says she doesn't know, it has just been lying around in the attic for most of the past 35 years, .............., how about $250? KCD pays her the money and leaves with the cue.

The next day, KCD calls one of his cue-collecting customers and sells the highly inlaid Balabushka cue for $25,000.

Was KCD unethical, just lucky, or something else?

Unethical or just lucky? Oh, the irony.......

Guys, step back a minute and look at this hypothetical situation with the knowledegable cue dealer (KCD) and take a minute to compare it to the thread about a certain "undercover pool hustler" being inducted into the one-pocket hall of fame.

Come on....really. Pool players think it's so terrible for the KCD to have supposedly done this? But it's ok to admire the pool player for his accomplishments and huge scores, setting traps for unsuspecting victims. How can one situation be so lauded and one be so condemnable?

If this is really how pool people feel, then this has got to be one of the biggest bags of shit I've ever read here on AZ. How contradictory.

I would bet that well over 50% of those very people who agreed that the KCD was dishonest/unethical would do the exact same thing or something very similar if they were in the same situation.

What about if he paid her $1000 or $3000 even.

Would it be ok to have bought it for $250 at a pawn shop? What about a flea market? Or a yard sale?

Just a bit of devil's advocate here guys.

 

[Quesports]

I played pool for quite some time in NC and a friends Dad had a cue he used as his break stick. He had bought it one night in a pool hall from a fellow that told him it was a Palmer for $100.00. He used it for a couple years and then his son won a trip to Vegas with his APA team. Well his Dad decided to accompany him and bring his cues so they could hang out together. One day at the APA event he decided to have his break cue and shaft cleaned up at one of the repair booths at the show. Well the gentleman at the booth looked at the cue and asked what he wanted done, after a few minutes the repair man called his partner over to see this Palmer and again asked the owner what he wanted done. It was at this point that the two guys in the booth informed the owner that what he had was not a Palmer. It was an original Balabushka that they estimated to be worth between $8000.00 to possibly $11,000.00. That is ethics practiced as it should be.. The great thing is the owner and his son are two of the nicest people you could ever meet and it could not have happened to a better guy. Now his son will someday inherit a true gem!! I know this has little to do with the original thread and I do not wish to sidetrack it I just thought this was worth mentioning..
Dan

 

[okinawa77]

Yes, it's in our heads, and since I often end up playing the devil's advocate (some of you might even think I aspire to become the devil himself) I must say that I like Patrick Johnson's scenario, especially since the initial post (above) didn't describe this woman much more than being "cue-ignorant" and "widowed". Hence, I choose to think that she killed her husband and spent his life-insurance on crack.

In fact, I was actually in a slightly similar situation (sans the crack) as I was buying a 120 year old Brunswick off someone who didn't really know the value of this cue. However, the difference was that I ended up paying top dollars for it, not because I'm ethical or a good person but simply because I'm a fool and an idiot. To make things worse, I'm now having it "bastardized" by no other than Ryan Theewen (Rat Cues) in the hopes of converting it into a real playing cue, (Ryan, I'm still waiting ;^)

-- peer


By the way, I happen to know that Mr. Bumpypickle has no friends and lives alone in a van by the river. He also microwaves cute puppies for breakfast every morning.

I don't think it's unethical. The lady should have done some research.

And it's not true about Bumpypickle...he does have friends....at the Animal Control Center. I hear the brown puppies taste like chocolate, but watch out for the chihuahuas, they're a little spicy.

 

[Scott Lee]

Dan...Actually, I think it has EVERYTHING to do with this thread! It was the right thing to do, and the people involved did it that way! Kudos to them, and thanks for pointing it out. IMO, I like to believe there are more people here, who believe it is wrong behavior (whether it is "trapping" unsuspecting suckers...hustling...or cheating someone on a cue purchase), than believe it is okay to do either one.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I know this has little to do with the original thread and I do not wish to sidetrack it I just thought this was worth mentioning..

Dan

 

[ShootingArts]

stories, movies, and real life

Many people enjoy movies and stories about people and things they would never condone in real life. One example, The Godfather was a huge hit as a book and a movie but I don't think many of us want those type of people as friends. Likewise when many people read the tales of old time hustlers and such it is a little removed from reality and they think it is cool.

I have known many a small time hustler and a few big time hustlers including some politicians on the the state and national level. None of them that I actually knew well enough to know them as a person are heroes to me. A few were very likeable and I liked them, but I wouldn't call them a friend because I knew they didn't have any friends. They would stick a knife in me for the right price just as quickly as they would nail somebody else and I was well aware of that.

There is a sharp difference between serious gamblers moving on each other and hustling each other and putting a con on a straight. Serious gamblers all know the score and if you manage to outmove one of them you didn't rob a helpless victim. It doesn't offend my sense of ethics to hear that one crook managed to outmaneuver another crook. Con's that don't hinge on the other person's greed are another matter. Cheating little ol' ladies, dumping backers that are only involved because they think you are their friend, hustles that have nothing to do with pool other than that pool happens to be the tool used, these things are the work of cheap crooks regardless of who they are.

I'll still read the stories of old time hustlers and enjoy the stories of hustlers hustling hustlers. I find these guys entertaining but I don't admire them. The hustlers that club baby seals, I don't even find them entertaining.

Hu

 

[Peer]

I played pool for quite some time in NC and a friends Dad had a cue he used as his break stick. He had bought it one night in a pool hall from a fellow that told him it was a Palmer for $100.00. He used it for a couple years and then his son won a trip to Vegas with his APA team. Well his Dad decided to accompany him and bring his cues so they could hang out together. One day at the APA event he decided to have his break cue and shaft cleaned up at one of the repair booths at the show. Well the gentleman at the booth looked at the cue and asked what he wanted done, after a few minutes the repair man called his partner over to see this Palmer and again asked the owner what he wanted done. It was at this point that the two guys in the booth informed the owner that what he had was not a Palmer. It was an original Balabushka that they estimated to be worth between $8000.00 to possibly $11,000.00. That is ethics practiced as it should be.. The great thing is the owner and his son are two of the nicest people you could ever meet and it could not have happened to a better guy. Now his son will someday inherit a true gem!! I know this has little to do with the original thread and I do not wish to sidetrack it I just thought this was worth mentioning..

Yep, that's my buddy Jim's Balabushka. And also I have a few funny stories to tell about this cue as Jim often leaves it behind when drinking & playing it the rattiest dive bars.

-- peer

 

[Quesports]

Hey Peer, Please don't tell me he leaves it at Antonio's Nut House!! That is assuming that place is still there. It was on California Ave up near the tracks. If you see Jim please tell him Dan from Chapel Hill NC says hello.
Dan

 

[mantis99]

As a cue dealer, let me ask.. What is my compensation for my knowledge? I have spent numerous hours, unbelievable dollars, to accumulate the knowledge that allows me to know a Szamboti, or Bushka, by merely checking a handful of items. As any other appraiser, what is my compensation? Now I agree for someone to come in as an appraiser, and buy the cue from this woman deceitfully, it is bad juju.

But now since this happens to me constantly. In fact Mark and I were discussing this very topic recently. At Valley Forge people expect this service for NOTHING. When you tell them you charge for this service, they look at you like you have two heads.

I think our solution will be on the spot letters, they will cost $ 100.00 OR 10% of the appraised value. Whichever is higher. WHY? Because with that knowledge that person may make a lot of money. Why should I give out this information for NOTHING? I tell a guy his Bushka is worth 12k, when he had NO idea, now he has protection. That protection must have a value, no? Does my mechanic fix my car for nothing? No.. Do I remodel kitchens and bathrooms for nothing? No. Why should cues be any different?

JV

I work as a physical therapist. I have past pt's call me often for advice on problems related to what I have seen them for, and on new ones. I happily give this advice for free over the phone, or even for a few minutes in person because it is just good buisness and I care about the people. I even offer people a free 10-15 minute assessment (whether they are a new or old pt) to figure out if physical therapy will be beneficial to them, or to give them guidance if something different is needed, and I am always honest about it. That of course has buisness benefits, but if I am not working on them, i don't charge them.

I think an appraisal can have a reasonable charge, but $100 or 10% of the cue is a little off the reservation unless it takes over an hour to assess the value. It is generally accepted buisness that unless appraisal is your primary buisness, the appraisal is free or has a nominal charge, with the prospect of a possible buisness transaction being the reward. This is true with pretty much all antiques, and with jewelery, so I can't see why it would not be true here. If it is not free, more than $25-$50 seems a little high for this service.

 

[classiccues]

I think an appraisal can have a reasonable charge, but $100 or 10% of the cue is a little off the reservation unless it takes over an hour to assess the value. It is generally accepted buisness that unless appraisal is your primary buisness, the appraisal is free or has a nominal charge, with the prospect of a possible buisness transaction being the reward. This is true with pretty much all antiques, and with jewelery, so I can't see why it would not be true here. If it is not free, more than $25-$50 seems a little high for this service.

Really?

http://www.chicagoappraisers.com/feesterms/

$195.00...

JV