Look for a small pattern. 2 or 3 balls that leads to playing an effective safety on the 4th ball in the run.
The hardest thing to teach lower skill level players
- Thread starter jdxprs
- Start date
Look for a small pattern. 2 or 3 balls that leads to playing an effective safety on the 4th ball in the run.
blah blah
Shoebat
patterns
Another way to start looking at patterns is to just start thinking in terms of three balls.
The OP said that the student knew how to get shape from one ball to another, but couldn't see patterns.
Throw three balls out on the table and designate the order they have to go in (1, 2, 3.)
Take ball in hand, make ball 1, getting shape on ball 2 so that shape on 3 will be possible.
As soon as ball 1 is down, throw out another ball- that new ball is now ball 3.
There will ALWAYS be 3 balls on the table, there will always be an order, and the shooter is ALWAYS thinking about making all three balls.
Logic:
The beginner learned how to make a ball. Then he learned how to make a ball with a leave so that he can make the next. Now he's learning to make the ball so he can make the next AND the next. (you can see where this is going).
Another way to start looking at patterns is to just start thinking in terms of three balls.
The OP said that the student knew how to get shape from one ball to another, but couldn't see patterns.
Throw three balls out on the table and designate the order they have to go in (1, 2, 3.)
Take ball in hand, make ball 1, getting shape on ball 2 so that shape on 3 will be possible.
As soon as ball 1 is down, throw out another ball- that new ball is now ball 3.
There will ALWAYS be 3 balls on the table, there will always be an order, and the shooter is ALWAYS thinking about making all three balls.
Logic:
The beginner learned how to make a ball. Then he learned how to make a ball with a leave so that he can make the next. Now he's learning to make the ball so he can make the next AND the next. (you can see where this is going).
Interesting superstar... it's definitely true that some beginners are full of themselves, but more often I run into players who are always down on themselves and don't have realistic expectations. They can be doing great for their current skill level and they act like they just vomited on the cloth or something.
I have a hard time convincing players on the actual difficulty of shots, they always want to underestimate something. They don't realize that straight in isn't always easy, that a ball frozen to the rail can be tough to cut, that shooting while jacked up over a ball or off the rail drops your make % by half.
Tap tap to Big Perm btw. Some players just fall in love with draw and use it constantly whether it's necessary or not. They want the world to see they can do something 'advanced' and eventually it becomes habit.
Another terrible habit to break is spinning balls in. There are guys shooting every single ball on the table with low outside.
I have a hard time convincing players on the actual difficulty of shots, they always want to underestimate something. They don't realize that straight in isn't always easy, that a ball frozen to the rail can be tough to cut, that shooting while jacked up over a ball or off the rail drops your make % by half.
Tap tap to Big Perm btw. Some players just fall in love with draw and use it constantly whether it's necessary or not. They want the world to see they can do something 'advanced' and eventually it becomes habit.
Another terrible habit to break is spinning balls in. There are guys shooting every single ball on the table with low outside.
Getting them to recognize that they are in fact beginners is the toughest thing I encounter. I play apa league locally, I'm the captain of the team and a sl7. I realize that most strong players can smoke my ass and freely admit it. I have a sl3 on my team who tries to give me advice about what I could have done better in my match if I lose. Same guy misses ball in hand shots because he choses something rediculous instead of the 2 ft stop shot.
Stylez777
New member
From my perspective (which is the one who is learning, not teaching). Pattern play is something I am constantly talking over with the better players on my team. I understand what they are saying but what they see and can do may not work as well for me. While Pattern play is very important it comes more form experience and playing TONS of racks over a course of time. You can't sit there in a half hour lesson and have a beginner learn how to read a table (just my opinion).
The hardest thing to me (very important I feel also) is teaching them safety play. I never liked safety play. I'd try to make any and all shots (even half baked crazy impossible ones). Then I learned I had to play safeties if I wanted to win more games. Then I learned how to spot safeties in advance and not shoot until I need to shoot safe (which is huge in 8 ball). I see many good players in my league who are way better then me that if they learned how to play safeties well they would be even better!
The hardest thing to me (very important I feel also) is teaching them safety play. I never liked safety play. I'd try to make any and all shots (even half baked crazy impossible ones). Then I learned I had to play safeties if I wanted to win more games. Then I learned how to spot safeties in advance and not shoot until I need to shoot safe (which is huge in 8 ball). I see many good players in my league who are way better then me that if they learned how to play safeties well they would be even better!
8 ball is like chess. And if you watch any of the strong 5 6 7 in the apa play, you will see that table control is EVERYTHING. They either break and run, or run out in 1 inning. But if that is not possible then taking over pockets is CRUCIAL. Taking the duck is definatly NOT the correct advice. I shoot with the best shots in the MW Eddie Balderaz, Niel Jackobs, Jet, Ike reynolds, Gil Hernadez, Dan Anderson, Tony Gong. I have never heard from one of them that taking the duck, unless it is a simple breakout of a hard ball, is the right play.
jdxprs
Banned
playing safeties is easy if you devote a little practice time to them.
I used to give pool lessons back in Jersey years ago. So one night this guy says would you teach me? Sure $25 an hour and you pay the table time.So to get an idea of his speed i set up an easy shot and said just draw the cue ball back. He did it maybe 3 of of 10 times OK now i know.So we spent some time on the mechanics of the draw and follow besides correcting basic mechanics. So here is the kicker after the hour he pays me and says "Next lesson you are going to teach me how to run a rack of 9 ball? I gave him his money back and told him not to bother me anymore. From that day on i would not teach a rank beginner,just did not have the patience for it.
xtrmbrdr
Registered
jdxprs
Banned
Descente36
Registered
I think it's much easier to teach a player strategic theory than the subconscious natures of stroke, aiming, and speed control. Many pros will tell you they just aim subconsciously. Aiming systems only serve to reinforce the subconscious
Again, I understand and appreciate your perspective. And I realize that none of the really good players that you play with EVER take the duck. But please recognize that none of you or the players you play with are beginners currently. All of you can make multiple shots regularly, runnign racks with no problem. I fear that all of you who keep trying to convince me of this fail to remember what it is like at the beginner level, where running multiple balls isn't a given at any time.
Yes, I realize that if you have the ability to make most of the balls you shoot at, leaving the pocket blocked is to your advantage. In my game, leaving a ball that I could have made in exchange for trying a ball that I might not make isn't a fair sacrifice. I've played chess for many years, so I do understand your perspective. But I also realize my abilities and limitations, and try to apply them as best possible. Giving up a duck isn't smart most of the time, for me as a beginner, against a better player. (Another beginner is a whole other story.)
Thanks for the advice though. Working this stuff out in discussion is a good mental exercise.
CreeDo;/ said:
I just broke this habit. Now I always follow
I was shown
I wasn't teachable. They had to show me[/B]. If asked-I will offer to show or watch someone's stop shot (stun), draw, and follow. We look at the contact points of both CB and OB needed to pocket the ball and work on making that happen at contact. We hit a lot of stun shots down the tangent line.:idea: ( It's like-welcome aboard-you are no longer a banger-the light has lit-you now have a major puzzle piece-because somebody showed me-I can show you-that the CB path can be fairly predictable if basics are executed well.)
That's not a secret. Doing it is a different issue.
If asked, I will suggest to someone that they develop their own stroke pace, that delivers a fairly crisp hit to the CB (to encourage the stun speed.) and that the tip accelerate thru and past the ball regardless of pace. Adjustments up or down in power from that baseline are not real tough to make.
I suggest that they stay down. The balls will not explode. You are in no danger. The balls will roll, if the CB is going to roll-let it- if that makes the shape.
After these basics are working-some pattern practice. Usually 3 balls on the table-BIH. I usually ask-the same thing I was asked- AND THEN????
Having a major puzzle piece to work with, and the life long pursuit of how better to solve the 'AND THEN'?? pattern questions-someonelse can join the rest of us who love playing this game even though it tortures us sometimes.
Sorry for the rant. It just that I'm not teachable. I like it when somebody says let me show you this shot/not let me teach you this shot.
We didn't invent this stuff. I think we're supposed to pass it on.
I'll take my meds now
3railkick
tangent line fan
I wasn't teachable. They had to show me[/B]. If asked-I will offer to show or watch someone's stop shot (stun), draw, and follow. We look at the contact points of both CB and OB needed to pocket the ball and work on making that happen at contact. We hit a lot of stun shots down the tangent line.:idea: ( It's like-welcome aboard-you are no longer a banger-the light has lit-you now have a major puzzle piece-because somebody showed me-I can show you-that the CB path can be fairly predictable if basics are executed well.)
That's not a secret. Doing it is a different issue.
If asked, I will suggest to someone that they develop their own stroke pace, that delivers a fairly crisp hit to the CB (to encourage the stun speed.) and that the tip accelerate thru and past the ball regardless of pace. Adjustments up or down in power from that baseline are not real tough to make.
I suggest that they stay down. The balls will not explode. You are in no danger. The balls will roll, if the CB is going to roll-let it- if that makes the shape.
After these basics are working-some pattern practice. Usually 3 balls on the table-BIH. I usually ask-the same thing I was asked- AND THEN????
Having a major puzzle piece to work with, and the life long pursuit of how better to solve the 'AND THEN'?? pattern questions-someonelse can join the rest of us who love playing this game even though it tortures us sometimes.
Sorry for the rant. It just that I'm not teachable. I like it when somebody says let me show you this shot/not let me teach you this shot.
We didn't invent this stuff. I think we're supposed to pass it on.
I'll take my meds now
3railkick
tangent line fan
Yep
Absolutely correct sir !! And Ike Runnels might be the best at this. He won't shoot his first shot in 8 ball until he knows all his soldiers have a base to go to. He'll block the pockets up, get balls in postion for his breakouts, safe the hell out of you to ensure you don't run before him. And you will not see him do a failed run out but once in a blue moon. Once he does makes his first ball, you pretty much sit back and figure the end is near. And he looks so innocent when he is doing it until you are trapped worse than a cat up a tree !! Man, I really hate Ike !!! lol
Absolutely correct sir !! And Ike Runnels might be the best at this. He won't shoot his first shot in 8 ball until he knows all his soldiers have a base to go to. He'll block the pockets up, get balls in postion for his breakouts, safe the hell out of you to ensure you don't run before him. And you will not see him do a failed run out but once in a blue moon. Once he does makes his first ball, you pretty much sit back and figure the end is near. And he looks so innocent when he is doing it until you are trapped worse than a cat up a tree !! Man, I really hate Ike !!! lol
Great post. I too will take that advice to heart. :thumbup2: