The Hustler and the Champ

[JAM]

EDIT - just noticed......not sure what the quote you chose had to do with your question so am assuming it was just a general lead-in and not there for any specific reason.

I am a member of a forum in my industry, and I think I will make a poll on it and ask which names anybody recognizes. I will include Willie Mosconi, Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, Cliff Thorburn, Steve Mizerak, and Alex Higgins. Can you think of any others I should add?

I'll post back in a week or so and let you know the results! I have a feeling that 5 percent or less will know any of these names!

JAM

 

[memikey]

I am a member of a forum in my industry, and I think I will make a poll on it and ask which names anybody recognizes. I will include Willie Mosconi, Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, Cliff Thorburn, Steve Mizerak, and Alex Higgins. Can you think of any others I should add?

That could be funny, are there a lot of stuffed shirts in Washington in your industry or a lot of the nervous types who would panic if woofed at in a pool room by some big bear?

Assuming (favourite word this week ) you are talking about a poll in USA and/or in other Western countries and/or mainly a poll of Westerners and that many may be 'mature' you might want to consider including Steve Davis and/or Ray Reardon and/or Stephen Hendry and perhaps Bustamente (in my travels around Middle East and Asia I have found his name for some reason to be much more recognisable than I would have expected it to be relative to other Phillipino pool players, maybe it's the way it trips off the tongue). To me Pagulayan seems often to be the next most readily recognised name out here with Reyes third. Strangely enough if you did it on "photographs only" here I think the order of recognition of those three would be reversed.

If there are many Far Eastern people likely to be questioned in the poll that would open up a whole different potential list, but I doubt that's where you're going with this.

Presumably to be fair to Fats you'll list him as Minnesota Fats and not under his Sunday name

Might even be amusing and give interesting results to list Fats twice under the two separate names and see the outcome........especially how many tick one box and not the other but then maybe that's just my mischievous mind.

Good luck with that.

Edit.....Go the whole mischievous hog and insert one "made up" name just to see the reaction and how many claim to recognise it. I'm sure the site comedians can come up with a couple of belting name suggestions

 

[Johnnyt]

I just got an e-mail from Amazon.con that the publication date has changed. I won't get mime until 10/12 grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Johnnyt

Sorry wrong book...I ordered Danny's book Running the Rails.

 

[jay helfert]

I'd bet a bundle (mainly cos there's probably no real way to quantify it accurately enough ) that at least 95% of the non pool playing world has never even heard of Minnesota Fats, let alone know that he was a pool player.

PS.....there is a 'world' out there, somewhere beyond where your nearest ocean seems to meet the sky

I'd like to bet you a bundle (let's say $1,000) that if we walked down the street in any city in the United States and asked ten men over 40 who Minnesota Fats was, at least five would say he was a pool player. That's 50%.
Wanna bet? It wouldn't be hard to do this survey. It can be done in Norfolk at the U.S. Open or Louisville in January.

 

[jay helfert]

I am a member of a forum in my industry, and I think I will make a poll on it and ask which names anybody recognizes. I will include Willie Mosconi, Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, Cliff Thorburn, Steve Mizerak, and Alex Higgins. Can you think of any others I should add?

I'll post back in a week or so and let you know the results! I have a feeling that 5 percent or less will know any of these names!

JAM

What about Fats, only the most famous pool player since Greenleaf and Mosconi (and more well known than Willie). He was much more well known by the general public than Jeanette Lee is today, by a wide margin.

 

[efirkey]

I'd like to bet you a bundle (let's say $1,000) that if we walked down the street in any city in the United States and asked ten men over 40 who Minnesota Fats was, at least five would say he was a pool player. That's 50%.
Wanna bet? It wouldn't be hard to do this survey. It can be done in Norfolk at the U.S. Open or Louisville in January.

and how many girls under 20 would know who he is, because I just asked both my daughters and neither one of them had a clue. My youngest daughter (ll years old) asked me, who would name their kid Minnesota? Kids are hilarious.

 

[memikey]

I'd like to bet you a bundle (let's say $1,000) that if we walked down the street in any city in the United States and asked ten men over 40 who Minnesota Fats was, at least five would say he was a pool player. That's 50%.
Wanna bet? It wouldn't be hard to do this survey. It can be done in Norfolk at the U.S. Open or Louisville in January.

Jay, what brings that kind of bet offer on? Clearly you haven't read this thread fullly. That is indeed 50%. It's 50% of what which is more relevant at this point in the discussion.

I have no idea or firm opinion on what the outcome of the survey you propose would be, so am hardly likely to bet on it, in fact I already clearly said that you guys in USA would know better than someone like me what the recognition ratios in USA would be likely to be.

To open the door to this subject Walt made the (ridiculous) statement that "everybody in the non pool playing world" has heard of Minnesota Fats. I implied that was patently nonsensical and during subsequent discussion I estimated that in the region of 95-99% of today's non pool playing population of the world would never have heard of Minnesota Fats or have known that he was a pool player.

I also said to another poster that if he insisted it was the case we would go along with his contention that 50% of every non pool playing person alive in USA today would have heard of Fats but that I was really struggling even with that concept given sexes, ages, ethnicity etc etc. You obviously agree with me to some degree because you yourself have now drastically narrowed down and polarised that earlier poster's "50% of everybody alive in USA who has never played pool" into "50% of males over the age of 40". Presumably your reason for doing that is underpinned by a belief that it is in that group of males that by far the biggest recognition of Fats would be found. That also makes sense to me.

However you will appreciate that in the grander scheme of things the entire over 40's male population of USA is a tiny fraction of the non pool playing population of the world and the over 40's male non pool playing population of USA is an even smaller insignificant fraction of the same thing. To stay anywhere near on song with the theme of this discussion in line with Walt's original contention (NON pool playing world) you'd of course also have to disqualify the answer of any of the 10 guys in the street you ask who transpire to be pool players themselves, but let's set that aside for the moment.

I take it you do realise that even if you are right and 50% of that group you mention could indeed identify Fats it still wouldn't constitute anywhere even remotely near 5% of the world's population? In fact in a way you are more or less agreeing with me by implication by the very act of choosing the focus group which you have specified. Taking rough round numbers of say half the population of USA being male you are right away down to 50% only that you seem to think it to be most worth asking. By narrowing it further to males 'over 40' you might be bringing the overall percentage down by another say 50% of 50% so you are now down to considering only 25% of the whole population. If you are right and half of them say they recognise Minesota Fats that gives you 7-10% of the entire population of USA likely to know who Fats was. You could add those outside the category of "males over 40" who would recognise him but even if they amounted to another say 3-5% that would only give you a grand total of somewhere between 10-15% of the whole population of USA. Gut feeling tells me even that's probably way too high but I don't know USA that well. Furthermore it takes no account of it being only the "the Non pool playing population" that we should be looking at, so the percentage would go down somewhat if that was strictly followed.

On a sheer common sense basis I would certainly stand totally confidently behind the earlier assertion that less than 5% of the non pool playing population of the world would recognise the name Minnesota Fats and be able to state that he was a pool player........ no way, not possible, sheer numbers, geography and lifestyle make that obvious. Frankly the real number is probably much less than 1% but I can't be bothered looking up the world populations involved.

There are in excess of 1,000 million people in India alone, how many non pool playing Indians do you think would have heard of Minnesota Fats and know he was a pool player? Am sure you get the jist without reeling off further huge and densely populated countries and their thousands of millions of inhabitants. It is probably the case that less than 5% of the non pool playing population of the world would recognise the name of any pool player at all, any nationality, any era, never mind just one fat American from the past.

We await JAM's survey results with interest, she apparently would not be surprised if less than 5% of the people she polls in USA alone (never mind the world) will know of Minnesota Fats the pool player and in a round about way Jay you yourself seem to be agreeing with her. Personally I don't have a really firm idea what the recognition figure would be in USA amongst ALL non pool playing people, but I do know that we pool playing enthusiasts everywhere in the world generally tend to grossly overestimate the profile of pool and its famous players within the overall scheme of everyday life.

 

[memikey]

What about Fats, only the most famous pool player since Greenleaf and Mosconi (and more well known than Willie). He was much more well known by the general public than Jeanette Lee is today, by a wide margin.

Minnesota Fats is already on JAM's list

 

[JAM]

...We await JAM's survey results with interest...but I do know that we pool playing enthusiasts everywhere in the world generally tend to grossly overestimate the profile of pool and its famous players within the overall scheme of everyday life.

LOL! Well, here's the content of the thread I initiated on a non-pool-related forum:

A debate has transpired about the notoriety of the above-referenced names with some friends of mine, and as such, I have initiated this thread with a poll to find out if anyone has ever heard of these names, without Googling!

This poll will run for seven days...If you have not heard of any of the names, then please select Option No. 8, "None."

Thanks in advance to any and all responders.

The eight options on the above-referenced poll are: Have you ever heard of any of these people? (Voting closes: September 30, 2007, 04:44:56 AM)

1. Earl Strickland
2. Efren Reyes
3. Steve Mizerak
4. Alex Higgins
5. Cliff Thorburn
6. Rudolph Wanderone, Jr.
7. Willie Mosconi
8. None

The responders may select No. 8 or, in the alternative, as many of Nos. 1 through 7 as they have heard of. So far to date, No. 8 has been the only option selected!

I'll post back when this poll concludes!

JAM

 

[memikey]

Thanks for the update JAM. However have no doubt that if the answer comes back as very low recognition somebody will blame the use of 'Rudolph Wanderone' instead of 'Minnesota Fats' for the failure to recognise, in order to keep alive this fond but somewhat strange notion that a large proportion of housewives in Alabama, loss adjusters in Roterdam, swineherd in Somalia, beggers in Bombay, surfers in Australia and ping pong players in China have a corner of their memory banks solely devoted to the exploits of a plump American who played a minority sport in days of much less efficient and less numerous global communications than today, many years before more than half of them were even born

 

[jay helfert]

LOL! Well, here's the content of the thread I initiated on a non-pool-related forum:

A debate has transpired about the notoriety of the above-referenced names with some friends of mine, and as such, I have initiated this thread with a poll to find out if anyone has ever heard of these names, without Googling!

This poll will run for seven days...If you have not heard of any of the names, then please select Option No. 8, "None."

Thanks in advance to any and all responders.

The eight options on the above-referenced poll are: Have you ever heard of any of these people? (Voting closes: September 30, 2007, 04:44:56 AM)

1. Earl Strickland
2. Efren Reyes
3. Steve Mizerak
4. Alex Higgins
5. Cliff Thorburn
6. Rudolph Wanderone, Jr.
7. Willie Mosconi
8. None

The responders may select No. 8 or, in the alternative, as many of Nos. 1 through 7 as they have heard of. So far to date, No. 8 has been the only option selected!

I'll post back when this poll concludes!

JAM

One problem with this pool. NO ONE will know who Rudolph Wanderone was! How about using the name Minnesota Fats?

 

[JAM]

One problem with this pool. NO ONE will know who Rudolph Wanderone was! How about using the name Minnesota Fats?

I was hesitant, initially, to put his nickname up there, "Minnesota Fats," for fear that some might recognize the name from a movie and not the name for the player himself.

However, on this non-pool-related forum, which is frequented by those in my industry from around the world, it does have an EDIT button for the poll. On AzBilliards, once you post a poll, you cannot edit the poll section.

So, as per your suggestion, Jay, I just edited the poll, and the names now read like this:

1. Earl Strickland
2. Efren Reyes
3. Steve Mizerak
4. Alex Higgins
5. Cliff Thorburn
6. Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., a/k/a "Minnesota Fats"
7. Willie Mosconi
8. None

Interestingly, as of the time of this writing, there is now one vote cast for Earl Strickland, one vote for Steve Mizerak, and one vote for Alex Higgins. All the rest of the votes, as of today, have chosen Option No. 8, "None."

The poll will end September 30th. So there's still time for more readers of that forum to cast their votes.

JAM

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, what brings that kind of bet offer on? Clearly you haven't read this thread fullly. That is indeed 50%. It's 50% of what which is more relevant at this point in the discussion.

I have no idea or firm opinion on what the outcome of the survey you propose would be, so am hardly likely to bet on it, in fact I already clearly said that you guys in USA would know better than someone like me what the recognition ratios in USA would be likely to be.

To open the door to this subject Walt made the (ridiculous) statement that "everybody in the non pool playing world" has heard of Minnesota Fats. I implied that was patently nonsensical and during subsequent discussion I estimated that in the region of 95-99% of today's non pool playing population of the world would never have heard of Minnesota Fats or have known that he was a pool player.

I also said to another poster that if he insisted it was the case we would go along with his contention that 50% of every non pool playing person alive in USA today would have heard of Fats but that I was really struggling even with that concept given sexes, ages, ethnicity etc etc. You obviously agree with me to some degree because you yourself have now drastically narrowed down and polarised that earlier poster's "50% of everybody alive in USA who has never played pool" into "50% of males over the age of 40". Presumably your reason for doing that is underpinned by a belief that it is in that group of males that by far the biggest recognition of Fats would be found. That also makes sense to me.

However you will appreciate that in the grander scheme of things the entire over 40's male population of USA is a tiny fraction of the non pool playing population of the world and the over 40's male non pool playing population of USA is an even smaller insignificant fraction of the same thing. To stay anywhere near on song with the theme of this discussion in line with Walt's original contention (NON pool playing world) you'd of course also have to disqualify the answer of any of the 10 guys in the street you ask who transpire to be pool players themselves, but let's set that aside for the moment.

I take it you do realise that even if you are right and 50% of that group you mention could indeed identify Fats it still wouldn't constitute anywhere even remotely near 5% of the world's population? In fact in a way you are more or less agreeing with me by implication by the very act of choosing the focus group which you have specified. Taking rough round numbers of say half the population of USA being male you are right away down to 50% only that you seem to think it to be most worth asking. By narrowing it further to males 'over 40' you might be bringing the overall percentage down by another say 50% of 50% so you are now down to considering only 25% of the whole population. If you are right and half of them say they recognise Minesota Fats that gives you 7-10% of the entire population of USA likely to know who Fats was. You could add those outside the category of "males over 40" who would recognise him but even if they amounted to another say 3-5% that would only give you a grand total of somewhere between 10-15% of the whole population of USA. Gut feeling tells me even that's probably way too high but I don't know USA that well. Furthermore it takes no account of it being only the "the Non pool playing population" that we should be looking at, so the percentage would go down somewhat if that was strictly followed.

On a sheer common sense basis I would certainly stand totally confidently behind the earlier assertion that less than 5% of the non pool playing population of the world would recognise the name Minnesota Fats and be able to state that he was a pool player........ no way, not possible, sheer numbers, geography and lifestyle make that obvious. Frankly the real number is probably much less than 1% but I can't be bothered looking up the world populations involved.

There are in excess of 1,000 million people in India alone, how many non pool playing Indians do you think would have heard of Minnesota Fats and know he was a pool player? Am sure you get the jist without reeling off further huge and densely populated countries and their thousands of millions of inhabitants. It is probably the case that less than 5% of the non pool playing population of the world would recognise the name of any pool player at all, any nationality, any era, never mind just one fat American from the past.

We await JAM's survey results with interest, she apparently would not be surprised if less than 5% of the people she polls in USA alone (never mind the world) will know of Minnesota Fats the pool player and in a round about way Jay you yourself seem to be agreeing with her. Personally I don't have a really firm idea what the recognition figure would be in USA amongst ALL non pool playing people, but I do know that we pool playing enthusiasts everywhere in the world generally tend to grossly overestimate the profile of pool and its famous players within the overall scheme of everyday life.

I TOTALLY agree with you! Are you happy now? This thread has two tones to it that I see. And one is asking who was the most famous (or well known) pool player in America. Maybe you missed that part. And I happen to think that in this area of the planet, the answer to that question is Minnesota Fats, and not Mosconi or anyone else.

To take your worldwide argument a step farther, what pecentage of the world's six billion plus people know who Michael Jordan or even Tiger Wood's is? Do you have any idea? I suspect worldwide recognition is less than 10%.

I will tell you an interesting story that is pertinent to this discussion. In China, there are well over a billion people, in fact nearly 20% of the world's population reside there. Right John?

Next time you visit there, ask someone who the Beatles were. Or ask them if they ever heard of Elvis. You may be surprised with the answer you get over and over. NO!

The first real Chinese celebrity is Yao Ming, the basketball player.

So your worldwide 5% recognition factor is a safe bet. Celebrities like Fats were only famous in this little corner of the globe.

By the way, the most famous American in our lifetime was undoubtedbly Muhammed Ali. He may have been known and recognized by a large percentage of the world population, maybe as much as 20-25%. I doubt they ever heard his name in China though.

 

[jay helfert]

I was hesitant, initially, to put his nickname up there, "Minnesota Fats," for fear that some might recognize the name from a movie and not the name for the player himself.

However, on this non-pool-related forum, which is frequented by those in my industry from around the world, it does have an EDIT button for the poll. On AzBilliards, once you post a poll, you cannot edit the poll section.

So, as per your suggestion, Jay, I just edited the poll, and the names now read like this:

1. Earl Strickland
2. Efren Reyes
3. Steve Mizerak
4. Alex Higgins
5. Cliff Thorburn
6. Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., a/k/a "Minnesota Fats"
7. Willie Mosconi
8. None

Interestingly, as of the time of this writing, there is now one vote cast for Earl Strickland, one vote for Steve Mizerak, and one vote for Alex Higgins. All the rest of the votes, as of today, have chosen Option No. 8, "None."

The poll will end September 30th. So there's still time for more readers of that forum to cast their votes.

JAM

I'm not sure what difference it makes if they heard his name in a movie or anywhere else. Isn't this poll supposed to be about "name recognition"? I see some clear bias here against Fats. He was only famous under one name, MINNESOTA FATS. To use his real name is like asking people if they know who Archie Leach was, and not use Cary Grant, which was his far more famous stage name.

 

[George Fels]

Unfortunately, Memikey, you'd lose that one decisively. In a fairly recent survey, the best-known pool player was Minnesota Fats. Jeanette Lee was second, the late Steve Mizerak was third (no doubt more in tribute to his Miller Lite commercials than his pool playing), and the great Mosconi was only fourth. GF

 

[JAM]

I'm not sure what difference it makes if they heard his name in a movie or anywhere else. Isn't this poll supposed to be about "name recognition"? I see some clear bias here against Fats. He was only famous under one name, MINNESOTA FATS. To use his real name is like asking people if they know who Archie Leach was, and not use Cary Grant, which was his far more famous stage name.

Yes, Jay, the poll I created on the non-pool-related forum is about "name recognition."

You won't get any bias from me about Minnesota Fats. In fact, I think I may have posted more Minnesota Fats-related posts on this forum than anyone else, FWIW!

I did edit the poll, as per your kind suggestion, in an effort to get a more reflective result.

JAM

 

[12squared]

thanks for the heads up. I just ordered it & the Kid Delicious book together & got free shipping . I'm a slow reader but when I finally finish them, I'll report back. (you should see how long it took me to type this .

 

[Johnnyt]

I was hesitant, initially, to put his nickname up there, "Minnesota Fats," for fear that some might recognize the name from a movie and not the name for the player himself.

However, on this non-pool-related forum, which is frequented by those in my industry from around the world, it does have an EDIT button for the poll. On AzBilliards, once you post a poll, you cannot edit the poll section.

So, as per your suggestion, Jay, I just edited the poll, and the names now read like this:

1. Earl Strickland
2. Efren Reyes
3. Steve Mizerak
4. Alex Higgins
5. Cliff Thorburn
6. Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., a/k/a "Minnesota Fats"
7. Willie Mosconi
8. None

Interestingly, as of the time of this writing, there is now one vote cast for Earl Strickland, one vote for Steve Mizerak, and one vote for Alex Higgins. All the rest of the votes, as of today, have chosen Option No. 8, "None."

The poll will end September 30th. So there's still time for more readers of that forum to cast their votes.

JAM

Not fair to the others. No Bata, Miz, Pearl, Grouchy, and NO Spider. How can you not have the Spider in this pole? Johnnyt

 

[JAM]

Not fair to the others. No Bata, Miz, Pearl, Grouchy, and NO Spider. How can you not have the Spider in this pole? Johnnyt

Wow. I must admit, I don't know who the Spider is. And Grouchy?

Bata, Miz, and Pearl, I got!

BTW, an update on my poll, as of the time of this wrting, Minnesota Fats' name, since it was added, has gotten six votes for name recognition.

JAM

 

[Johnnyt]

Wow. I must admit, I don't know who the Spider is. And Grouchy?

Bata, Miz, and Pearl, I got!

BTW, an update on my poll, as of the time of this wrting, Minnesota Fats' name, since it was added, has gotten six votes for name recognition.

JAM

The Black Widow- spider= probably would have one it...depending on the age of the pollees
and you don't have the others nicknames-not fair. Grouchy was a Mosconi joke. Johnnyt