The Hustler and the Champ

[JAM]

R.A. Dyer is coming out with a new book, to be released October 1st: "The Hustler and the Champ: Willie Mosconi, Minnesota Fats, and the Rivalry that Defined Pool."

This description is inviting: R.A. Dyer follows the lives of Willie Mosconi and Minnesota Fats, telling the story of America's conflicted love affair with the sport of rogues.

And then this: Mosconi brought dignity to pool, Fats made it fun.

It was Valentine's Day, 1978, and Howard Cosell was hosting the long-awaited show-down between the best-ever tournament player, Willie Mosconi, and the game's most famous hustler, Minnesota Fats. This was The Great Pool Shoot-Out, one of the most highly rated televised sporting events of the year, exceeding even World Series games and basketball championships. R.A. Dyer, author of the best-selling Hustler Days, which recounts the rise of pool during the 1960s, writes of the acrid, but mutually beneficial rivalry between Fats and Mosconi, and how the televised shoot-outs came to embody that rivalry, which was nothing less than a bitter rift within the soul of American pocket billiards. Fats and Mosconi were born the same year, but were vastly different characters: one stood for artistry, the other for show business; one brought dignity to pool, the other made it fun. They are without a doubt the two most important players ever to hold a cue. This is the ultimate tale of American sportsmanship.

Here's a link about it: http://www.poolhistory.com/books/hustler_champ.html

It's available for preorder on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hustler-Champ...9499028?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190139355&sr=8-1

Sorry if this has been posted previously, but I just found out about it and thought I'd mention it to anyone interested.

JAM

 

[JAM]

Wow, I didn't know this: R. A. Dyer is a columnist for the nation's premier pool magazine, Billiards Digest. He is currently statehouse reporter for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, and before that, was a reporter for The Houston Chronicle, where he was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize. He lives in Austin, Texas.

PULITZER PRIZE! That is a fine credential, even to be nominated! WOW!

JAM

 

[Methodman201]

Sweet, I Can't wait to get my mitts on this one!!

 

[rayjay]

Thanks for the heads-up, JAM. Just preordered at Amazon!

 

[Walt Frazier]

Speaking of Minnesota Fats

R.A. Dyer is coming out with a new book, to be released October 1st: "The Hustler and the Champ: Willie Mosconi, Minnesota Fats, and the Rivalry that Defined Pool."

This description is inviting: R.A. Dyer follows the lives of Willie Mosconi and Minnesota Fats, telling the story of America's conflicted love affair with the sport of rogues.

And then this: Mosconi brought dignity to pool, Fats made it fun.

It was Valentine's Day, 1978, and Howard Cosell was hosting the long-awaited show-down between the best-ever tournament player, Willie Mosconi, and the game's most famous hustler, Minnesota Fats. This was The Great Pool Shoot-Out, one of the most highly rated televised sporting events of the year, exceeding even World Series games and basketball championships. R.A. Dyer, author of the best-selling Hustler Days, which recounts the rise of pool during the 1960s, writes of the acrid, but mutually beneficial rivalry between Fats and Mosconi, and how the televised shoot-outs came to embody that rivalry, which was nothing less than a bitter rift within the soul of American pocket billiards. Fats and Mosconi were born the same year, but were vastly different characters: one stood for artistry, the other for show business; one brought dignity to pool, the other made it fun. They are without a doubt the two most important players ever to hold a cue. This is the ultimate tale of American sportsmanship.

Here's a link about it: http://www.poolhistory.com/books/hustler_champ.html

It's available for preorder on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hustler-Champ...9499028?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190139355&sr=8-1

Sorry if this has been posted previously, but I just found out about it and thought I'd mention it to anyone interested.

JAM

That name is synonymous with pool,and/or pool hustling/playing.Before I could even hold a stick I had heard of Minnesota fats,and although I did'nt know what he looked like exactly,I knew he was a fat white guy(obviously) who was a bad dude on the pool table.

Many years ago I recall playing a few casual games of 8ball with friends,and most of the time when someone makes a decent shot it's"who do you think you are..Minnesota Fats?" or "Good shot Fats!" or "alright Minnesota Fats,quit showing off now".Even today,I would probably be accurate in my assumption that 90% of the non-pool playing world has never even heard of Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland or Efren Reyes;but they all know of minnesota fats .

It was'nt until I got knee deep into pool in the mid-80's before I knew who minnesota fats really was,and how he played .It hurt my heart when I learned that he was'nt even close to being on the same calibur of guys like Ronnie Allen,Buddy Hall and Keith McCready.Minnesota Fats was the Muhammed Ali of pool(except Ali was a much better boxer than fatty was a pool player).Fats was a showman(like ALI).Fats was great for his sport(like ALI) .Fats could give any pool player on earth the 7 ball in the woofing category(except for Ronnie Allen) like Ali....

Minnesota Fats was something else.

 

[memikey]

........Even today,I would probably be accurate in my assumption that 90% of the non-pool playing world has never even heard of Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland or Efren Reyes;but they all know of minnesota fats .......

I'd bet a bundle (mainly cos there's probably no real way to quantify it accurately enough ) that at least 95% of the non pool playing world has never even heard of Minnesota Fats, let alone know that he was a pool player.

PS.....there is a 'world' out there, somewhere beyond where your nearest ocean seems to meet the sky

 

[memikey]

I'm gonna get that book though Thanks to JAM for the info.

 

[jnav447]

R. A. Dyer's previous book, "Hustler Days", is THE best pool book I've ever read, and his new one should be terrific. Thanks to Mr. Dyer for another contribution to the history of this great game, and thanks to JAM for the heads up. Is the McReady book nearing completion?

 

[JimS]

R.A. Dyer is coming out with a new book, to be released October 1st: "The Hustler and the Champ: Willie Mosconi, Minnesota Fats, and the Rivalry that Defined Pool."

This description is inviting: R.A. Dyer follows the lives of Willie Mosconi and Minnesota Fats, telling the story of America's conflicted love affair with the sport of rogues.

And then this: Mosconi brought dignity to pool, Fats made it fun.

It was Valentine's Day, 1978, and Howard Cosell was hosting the long-awaited show-down between the best-ever tournament player, Willie Mosconi, and the game's most famous hustler, Minnesota Fats. This was The Great Pool Shoot-Out, one of the most highly rated televised sporting events of the year, exceeding even World Series games and basketball championships. R.A. Dyer, author of the best-selling Hustler Days, which recounts the rise of pool during the 1960s, writes of the acrid, but mutually beneficial rivalry between Fats and Mosconi, and how the televised shoot-outs came to embody that rivalry, which was nothing less than a bitter rift within the soul of American pocket billiards. Fats and Mosconi were born the same year, but were vastly different characters: one stood for artistry, the other for show business; one brought dignity to pool, the other made it fun. They are without a doubt the two most important players ever to hold a cue. This is the ultimate tale of American sportsmanship.

Here's a link about it: http://www.poolhistory.com/books/hustler_champ.html

It's available for preorder on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hustler-Champ...9499028?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190139355&sr=8-1

Sorry if this has been posted previously, but I just found out about it and thought I'd mention it to anyone interested.

JAM

Pre-order completed. Thanks for the info JAM.

 

[Scott Lee]

memikey...I'll give you my two cents. Walt Frazier is right on about this. I have crisscrossed the country, playing exhibitions at colleges, universities, military bases and poolrooms all over, to literally tens of thousands of people, over the past 15 yrs...as well as teaching thousands of lessons over the past 25 yrs as an instructor. Walt is quite correct in mentioning that MOST laypeople will at least have heard the name "Minnesota Fats", whether they know who he was or not. When I was learning to play, more than 35 yrs ago, even as a newbie, I had heard the name Minnesota Fats (although I didn't know anything about him). I had zero clue of who Mosconi was...until I read his book. Conversely, the same holds true for Jeanette Lee. People know who she is, whether it's by her given name, The Black Widow, or "that chinese girl with the long black hair"...they know her, and she is very recognizable, as proven by the sports polls that have been taken. Whatever else he may be, Walt is right on this one...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'd bet a bundle (mainly cos there's probably no real way to quantify it accurately enough ) that at least 95% of the non pool playing world has never even heard of Minnesota Fats, let alone know that he was a pool player.

PS.....there is a 'world' out there, somewhere beyond where your nearest ocean seems to meet the sky

 

[memikey]

memikey...I'll give you my two cents. Walt Frazier is right on about this. I have crisscrossed the country, playing exhibitions at colleges, universities, military bases and poolrooms all over, to literally tens of thousands of people, over the past 15 yrs...as well as teaching thousands of lessons over the past 25 yrs as an instructor. Walt is quite correct in mentioning that MOST laypeople will at least have heard the name "Minnesota Fats", whether they know who he was or not. When I was learning to play, more than 35 yrs ago, even as a newbie, I had heard the name Minnesota Fats (although I didn't know anything about him)......

Absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the accuracy of the experiences you describe Scott, which I totally respect. It's just that your findings don't wholly support Walt's actual contention, mainly because you seem to have interpreted differently from me.............

Firstly, Walt did not say "MOST LAYPEOPLE IN USA"....he said that "ALL of the non pool playing world" had heard of Fats.

Secondly people in USA who take pool lessons and people who attend pool exhibitions are generally not obvious candidates for the category of "non pool playing world or for that matter non pool playing laypeople", so they can't have been what Walt had in mind, they certainly weren't what I had in mind. So setting them aside, do you really think that a large proportion of todays' population of USA, the vast majority of whom have no contact whatsoever with the pool world, have ever heard of Minnesota Fats? Half of the population is female and a significant proportion are kids under 15 years of age?

Thirdly and most importantly, contrary to some perceptions, the USA is not "the world". It's more than reasonable to estimate that the name Minnesota Fats would mean absolutely nothing to at least 99% of the NON pool playing sectors of the population of Africa nor to at least 99% of the NON pool playing sectors of the population of Asia and is unlikely to mean anything to at least 95% of the NON pool playing sectors of the population of Europe and Australasia/Oceania. Do the maths on those NON pool playing sectors of world populations and see if when adding the amount of people in the NON pool playing sectors of the population of USA who have heard of Minnesota Fats the total would come even remotely close to making the "world" figure more than 5%, probably more like "less than 2%" and even that's being very generous in favour of Fats.

Personally I doubt that anywhere near 5% of the world's ENTIRE population (ie even if we include every man jack of all the pool playing communities everywhere) would have ever heard of Minnesota Fats.

.....and just to add a little more controversy for dissection ....disagree with Walt on something else he said in the same post......I think that with today's much more readily available global communications etc it's likely that far more of today's living world population have heard of Efren Reyes than have heard of Minnesota Fats. A large proportion of those Americans, Europeans and Australasians with some interest in pool and who have heard of Minnesota Fats would be quite likely to have also heard of Efren Reyes' current exploits and ability whereas of the squillions of Asians (pool playing and non pool playing) who have heard of Efren Reyes only a small proportion would have heard of the more historical Minnesota Fats. Most of those NON pool playing Americans who have heard of Minnesota Fats would quite probably not have heard of Efren Reyes but that small difference in numbers in Fats favour would be completely dwarfed by virtue of the sheer size of the Asian populations.

In bringing a comparison with Muhammed Ali into the equation I don't think that Walt was trying to suggest that Fats was as well known worldwide as Ali, but since he was mentioned it might be appropriate to also add for some loosely connected perspective that for a very long time Ali was miles ahead of his nearest challenger for being "the person who would be recognised by more people in the world than anyone else" and even his factor was estimated at only about 18%.

Food for thought but don't shoot the messenger, I heard of Fats when I was 12 years old in Scotland and he'll do for me in any pool entertainment poll and I'm definitely buying that book

 

[JAM]

R. A. Dyer's previous book, "Hustler Days", is THE best pool book I've ever read, and his new one should be terrific. Thanks to Mr. Dyer for another contribution to the history of this great game, and thanks to JAM for the heads up. Is the McReady book nearing completion?

I am looking forward to reading it, too, as well as the Kid Delicious book by Jon Wertheim. On the link above, you can order both books at the same time for about 30-some bucks.

I have spoke to others in the industry to get advice, as writing doesn't come naturally to me or Keith. It used to take us all day long to write a one-pager, and it was like pulling teeth to get the words right on the paper.

I once asked a pool magazine writer how long it took for him to finish an article for a magazine, and he said a few hours. Then I asked a prominent author of pool instructional books how long it took him to write one of his books, and he said his last book took 6 months from beginning to end. When I read material from the professional writers, as mentioned above, I am in awe, to put it simply. I don't know how these great writers get in the right frame of mind to write, but today I am inclined to believe it is a natural God-given talent, much like pool is to great players.

I do believe Keith's story will be a real eye-opener into the evolution of pocket billiards in the States during an era when gambling was the norm and hustling was a way of life, to include the good, the bad, and the ugly. Thanks for your interest in Keith's story.

JAM

 

[JAM]

...Minnesota Fats was something else.

When I worked full time on the Hill, I had no involvement with pool, but I never lost my passion for the game. By my cubicle in the office was a giant poster of TCOM. Somehow, seeing the words "The Color of Money" gave me incentive to bang as many pages as I could each day. The tags on my car used to say "RACK-EM."

Everybody in my office thought I was a pool shark or some sort of champion because of my love of pool. If only they knew how I paled in comparison to the great ones.

Interestingly, nobody ever heard of Efren Reyes or Earl Strickland, but they all knew who Minnesota Fats was. His name is like "Coca-Cola" and still brings a smile to faces every time it is mentioned. I have always thought that pool needs another Minnesota Fats to help elevate the sport, to make it mainstream, if you will. Even many years after his death, his legacy continues, and this book is a tribute to the man. I can't wait to read it.

I still get a chuckle when I read this: The flamboyant Wanderone once toured the country in a candied-apricot-over-carmel-plum Lincoln limo and had little trouble with identity recognition. His elongated nickname, "Minnesota Fats, King of Pool," on the side panels was done in translucent paint which changed colors with reflections from the sun as it moved. In 1980, Wanderone had to double his order of autographed pictures after he was stopped 37 times in a one-mile stretch while visiting St. Louis.

The epitaph on his tombstone reads: Beat everybody living on Earth. Now, St. Peter, rack 'em up.

JAM

 

[Johnnyt]

Is this the book that their going to make the movie of Kid Deliciouses life, or has the movie been put on hold like Jennifer Barretta's movie? I think a lot of people started to write books and had plans of a few pool movies when it looked like the IPT was going to put pool in the mainstream. When the IPT went belly up the interest and money dried up quickly. Johnnyt

 

[rossaroni]

So setting them aside, do you really think that a large proportion of todays' population of USA, the vast majority of whom have no contact whatsoever with the pool world, have ever heard of Minnesota Fats? Half of the population is female and a significant proportion are kids under 15 years of age?IQUOTE]

I don't know the exact percentage of Americans who know Minnesota Fats, but I do know it is much higher then any other pool player in history. Jeanette Lee may be close, but Fats still takes the cake. You have to remember that a movie was made with a character with the same name. I don't know if the character was based on Mr. Wanderone or not, but that is not really the point. He also had T.V. programs and appeared with people like Ali and others. His 'Wide World of Sports' matches with Mosconi were some of the top rated programs every year. They even make some high end cues with the same name! It may be hard to believe, but i know pool players who do not know who Efren is. And I mean people who play leagues and what not, and can run a rack. I don't know about the rest of the world, but I would not hesitate to say that the majority of the U.S. population knows or has heard of Minnesota fats.

P.S. Good rep for you for your long, thought-out post!

 

[jgpool]

Waiting

By JAM: R.A. Dyer is coming out with a new book, to be released October 1st: "The Hustler and the Champ: Willie Mosconi, Minnesota Fats, and the Rivalry that Defined Pool "

Ordered mine a couple of months ago from Amazon, waiting patiently!! Hustler days was a wonderful vacation read.

 

[memikey]

....I don't know the exact percentage of Americans who know Minnesota Fats, but I do know it is much higher then any other pool player in history

That I find totally believable.

......You have to remember that a movie was made with a character with the same name

Saw the movie, just call me methuselah

.....It may be hard to believe, but i know pool players who do not know who Efren is.And I mean people who play leagues and what not, and can run a rack.

Not that hard to believe. It means USA is little different from UK/Europe in that respect. In Uk many regular league players even have no idea of the names of the current Uk style 8 ball world champions even though the players concerned are of their own nationality and may play less than 50 miles from their own home.

.... I would not hesitate to say that the majority of the U.S. population knows or has heard of Minnesota Fats

If you and others who obviously know the USA so much better than us outsiders can hand on your heart say that you believe over 50% of every human being of all ages and both sexes and all ethnic backgrounds currently alive and living in the USA have heard of Minnesota Fats and that those same 50% could correctly identify Fats to have been a famous pool player (instead of for example it just being a vaguely familiar type of name they've heard in passing and guessing that he is say for example a poker player) I have to believe it and want to believe it..........but got to admit am still really struggling with that.......from the evidence of other areas of life in today's modern world one could be excused for expecting to be hard pressed to find over 50% of any polled cross section of Americans of all ages and sexes who could correctly identify that Joe Louis was a heavyweight boxer or that Babe Ruth was a baseball player never mind identify the much more obscure matter of a pool player who to the youth of today may as well have lived in the dinosaur era.

Either way you seem to agree with me that Walt was wrong, not ALL the non pool playing public, even in America, have heard of him

Thanks very much for your reply, learned a few things, one of the beatiful things about these forums

 

[JAM]

Either way you seem to agree with me that Walt was wrong, not ALL the non pool playing public, even in America, have heard of him

Thanks very much for your reply, learned a few things, one of the beatiful things about these forums

In your opinion, memikey, who has the most recognizable name in the discipline of pocket billiards, past and present?

JAM

 

[memikey]

In your opinion, memikey, who has the most recognizable name in the discipline of pocket billiards, past and present?

JAM

EDIT - just noticed......not sure what the quote you chose had to do with your question so am assuming it was just a general lead-in and not there for any specific reason.

Assuming you mean if the names and/or photographs of pool players past and present could somehow be shown to everybody who has lived in the past say 100 years and/or is still alive today who would be recognized by the highest number of people.......

Re USA.......Minnesota Fats,as already stated in post no 17 first line.

Re the world.......I honestly don't have enough data to make a reliable enough opinion to satisfy myself never mind anyone else. Given the populations of China,Taiwan, Korea, Phillipines, Malaysia and the Indian subcontinent and given the improved global communications internet and other media which did not exist in days of yore I would lean towards it being an Asian pool player or snooker player who is alive and playing today or one of the snooker world champions from outside Asia from the 80's/90's era.


It is quite possible for anyone at all to form an opinion on what are the realistic percentages of national or world population likely to have "heard of" any given thing or personality from any given walk of life without necessarily having a firm opinion on which of the various things or candidates is more recognisable than the others. It is also of course quite possible for example for Minnesota Fats or anyone else to be the most recognizable personality in pocket billiards in USA, relative to all others, even if he would only be recognised by say 15% (no significance just a random low number) of the population.

 

[jerseybillG]

grew up in the 50`s in a pool room neighborhood...we all knew of mosconi ,greenleaf etc: fats was ny fats .and we all knew he was rudolph wanderone, we lived for the game, after scool we went straight to the "ROOM" just started playing again after 35 yrs. ...reschooled myself about the players i missed ,strickland ,etc: but the older men i play with (many have taken up the game in their 60`s really know very little about the game or it`s past glory...i love the fact that i can watch the new players on my computer, and am enjoying the straight pool matches from the july 07 ` tounament....trying to get my stroke back and play some 14.1 again