The Hustler - Hero or Villain?

[JB Cases]

An undeniable part of the history of our sport revolves around hustling.

Should this be considered a proud tradition to be carried on, or should we consider it lowdown and effort to get away from it altogether?

Or are there varying degrees of hustling, some that are more acceptable than others?

An example of the two extremes might be:

A capable player who changes his appearance to look like a local painter complete with paint smeared overalls and perhaps a brush in his back pocket. He wants everyone to believe that he's at the bar to cool off after a day of hard work when, in actuality, he's there to beat the locals out of their money on the pool table.

vs.

A player who secretly agrees with his opponent or someone on the rail to dump a match, enriching himself via chop up, while denying railbirds and/or a backer their fair shot at winning the bet.

I know this latter example is typically frowned upon in a big way while, oftentime, I hear praise for the cleverness used in scenarios like the one in my first example.

So, what do you all think?

Is hustling an acceptable practice in pool today?

Was it ever?

Or is the answer dependent upon just how far or what type of hustle it is?

Interested in your thoughts.

Best,
Brian kc

Hustling, as defined by the act of duping a person in order to cheat them out of money is not ever an honorable thing to do. It's a con job. However the adage goes that you cannot cheat an honest man and so with most hustles the victim is trapped by their greed. I say most because there are people who prey on truly honest citizens with absolutely fraudulent and criminal acts.

Hustling in pool however is kind of a grey area because it involves the matching up of two players who are both jockeying for position.

Each of them thinks that they have the best of it. So to me it's sort of a mind game more than a crime when it comes to pool.

However when it's done meticulously to trap a target - such as moving to a town to lay down for months while setting the trap for a big fish then it's kind of genius in my eyes.

In a way it's like big game hunting. The creature that any hunter would truly most like to go after is man and pool hustling is the way to do that without actually killing someone.

It will never be eradicated until all the marks stop thinking that they are the hustlers. And hustling is older than pool and exists in every competive sport that there is. It's why professional football teams run false plays in practice in attempts to deceive their upcoming opponents into defending against the wrong plays.

Dumping is evil, chopping up backers is evil and should be dealt with in the same way thieves are dealt with in the middle east. Anyone who is caught doing either should be banished from the game forever with a scarlet A for asshole branded into their forehead. As to the rail though, any one who bets on the side should accept that the players might be doing business and if so and they bet the wrong way then that's life. Anytime you make a side bet and you aren't in on the scheme then you are gambling. That's the definition of gambling otherwise it's called stealing when you invest with a known outcome of profit.

 

[12310bch]

anyone who ever got hustled thought at the outset that he was the hustler.

The painter is an artist practicing an honorable trade .

The dumpers are slime.

 

[houmatroy]

The old art of hustling is gone forever !

With the invention of cell phones & the internet the true hustler/road player is a thing of the past...It use to be kinda like a game between the people who use to gamble on pool...anytime a stranger came thru town wanting to bet on pool...1st a pool detetective would ease in the parking lot to see what state they are from from their license plate on their car..then the phone calls to people you know from that area trying to get a line on their true speed cuz even tho they said they were in town working a regular job everybody knew they were fibbing but that was ok because you was working behind the schenes trying to get a true line on the guy....So every road player had a story & you've heard them all but if one had one that slipped thru the cracks and caught u with your guard down & caught u slipping then you'd have no choice but give the guys his props for originality...So I would have to say he was both villian & hero..cuz when he came to town he was the villian & the locals drew together & tried to defeat him & if he was original & got the money he road out of town like John Dillinger..he left the hero & the town had another story to tell about remember when.

Now you just google the guy & the story pretty much ends there.

 

[qbilder]

You feel the same way about scammers? Shoplifters? Mosquitos?

Nope. Why should I? Completely different. The only way a hustler can get in your wallet is if you knowingly open to him with the intentions of getting his money. It's called gambling, not theft. Folks get hustled when they try gambling & lose. Somebody out gambles you & now it's a scam, shoplifter or mosquito? Like I said, hustling is nothing but winning the gamble, outwitting the guy trying to hustle you. Is there injustice? Yes. Is there deceit? Yes. Would it happen to you if you weren't on some level up to the same thing? Nope.

 

[Johnnyt]

There are far worse hustlers than pool hustlers. Doctor’s, lawyer’s, car salesmen, politicians, anywhere you see fine print in advertisements or contracts. Also pharmaceutical companies and $25 chalk. Far more people get hustled from these people than by a pool hustler.Life is a hustle. Johnnyt

 

[Falcon Eddie]

Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. But , don't expect others to do unto you what you would to them.
Comparing bad with bad there is no difference between unscrupulous doctors, mechanics, dentists, or any other profession .
They all will have their reward.

 

[jalapus logan]

Hustling, as defined by the act of duping a person in order to cheat them out of money is not ever an honorable thing to do. It's a con job. However the adage goes that you cannot cheat an honest man and so with most hustles the victim is trapped by their greed. I say most because there are people who prey on truly honest citizens with absolutely fraudulent and criminal acts.

Hustling in pool however is kind of a grey area because it involves the matching up of two players who are both jockeying for position.

Each of them thinks that they have the best of it. So to me it's sort of a mind game more than a crime when it comes to pool.

However when it's done meticulously to trap a target - such as moving to a town to lay down for months while setting the trap for a big fish then it's kind of genius in my eyes.

In a way it's like big game hunting. The creature that any hunter would truly most like to go after is man and pool hustling is the way to do that without actually killing someone.

It will never be eradicated until all the marks stop thinking that they are the hustlers. And hustling is older than pool and exists in every competive sport that there is. It's why professional football teams run false plays in practice in attempts to deceive their upcoming opponents into defending against the wrong plays.

Dumping is evil, chopping up backers is evil and should be dealt with in the same way thieves are dealt with in the middle east. Anyone who is caught doing either should be banished from the game forever with a scarlet A for asshole branded into their forehead. As to the rail though, any one who bets on the side should accept that the players might be doing business and if so and they bet the wrong way then that's life. Anytime you make a side bet and you aren't in on the scheme then you are gambling. That's the definition of gambling otherwise it's called stealing when you invest with a known outcome of profit.

Bernie Madoff had a certain level of genius too, wouldn't you say? Look where he now resides.

Paraphrasing myself (from this link):

"...many folks just seem to idolize the [hustler] just described. If that is the pinnacle of human achievement to some, then I would argue that they are truly lost. What pool needs (and pool players desperately need) is some serious exposure and promotion. I for one am sick of seeing my area pool rooms disappear due to lack of interest. I am running out of places to play. That is unacceptable. So, it is with this selfishness in mind, that I request that certain pool players PULL THEIR HEAD OUT OF THEIR A$$ and get with the program. "

To sum, I think that in the bigger picture, hustlers are really just hustling themselves. Scrapping and scuffling for mere pennies seems like a tough row to hoe if you ask me. Far better to raise the profile of the game, EXHIBIT THE PLAYER'S TALENT, AND MAKE SOME REAL $$$.

Just my opinion...

 

[pt109]

anyone who ever got hustled thought at the outset that he was the hustler.

The painter is an artist practicing an honorable trade .

The dumpers are slime.

I like this response the best.
I gamble by the rules of poker..if I can make a royal flush look like a pair
of deuces...I think I'm doing pretty good.
But you can be a good poker player without cheating.

Was betting 50 on the wrong side in a dump once...they weren't very good
at hiding it but I just kept betting like I didn't have a clue...lost 500.
Later that day I made a game with them..got the 8 for 500 a game.
Won a few thousand, 'cause they needed the 7/8 off me..they were a little upset..got even madder when I promised them I would spend the
money wisely.:grin-square:
I've never won money that made me feel guilty.
A man who charges a woman too much for milk to feed her kids needs
a shrink before I do.

 

[JB Cases]

Bernie Madoff had a certain level of genius too, wouldn't you say? Look where he now resides.

Paraphrasing myself (from this link):

"...many folks just seem to idolize the [hustler] just described. If that is the pinnacle of human achievement to some, then I would argue that they are truly lost. What pool needs (and pool players desperately need) is some serious exposure and promotion. I for one am sick of seeing my area pool rooms disappear due to lack of interest. I am running out of places to play. That is unacceptable. So, it is with this selfishness in mind, that I request that certain pool players PULL THEIR HEAD OUT OF THEIR A$$ and get with the program. "

To sum, I think that in the bigger picture, hustlers are really just hustling themselves. Scrapping and scuffling for mere pennies seems like a tough row to hoe if you ask me. Far better to raise the profile of the game, EXHIBIT THE PLAYER'S TALENT, AND MAKE SOME REAL $$$.

Just my opinion...

No I wouldn't say that Bernie Madoff has any genius in him at all. All he did is run a Ponzi scheme at a level higher than anyone else. He and his family are criminals. Some people made a lot of money by pulling out their "investments" at the rate of return promised. It's now being exposed that many of these people knew implicitly that Madoff was running a con and they enticed others to invest so that they could get their money out.

However you can't feel bad for a lot of the victims of Madoff's scheme, they were greedy and believed he could beat the market in ways that no one else could. The people I feel sorry for are the investors in the pension funds where the stupid fund managers invested with madoff when they should have known better. As far as I concerned those managers should be doing jail time as well. The ordinary people whose life savings were wiped out are the real victims.

In contrast you have hustlers who move to a town, invent a profession, lay down for weeks or months to trap all the gamblers while fishing for the big one and they have no guarantee that all their work will pay off. Everyone that the hustler plays thinks that they are stealing or they wouldn't be playing.

Whose fault is it that I look at a guy in a painter's outfit and make an assumption that he can't possibly play as good as me?

Hustling happens every day. I have bought hardware from the companies with the best showrooms, great service, gleaming displays and gotten utter useless crap that they won't take back. Conversely I have bought hardware from the dingiest shops who look like they are on the brink of bankruptcy which is amazingly good.

Believe me wall street is the biggest hustler out there, followed by cell phone companies and insurance. The pool hustler is an angel compared to them.

 

[jalapus logan]

No I wouldn't say that Bernie Madoff has any genius in him at all. All he did is run a Ponzi scheme at a level higher than anyone else. He and his family are criminals. Some people made a lot of money by pulling out their "investments" at the rate of return promised. It's now being exposed that many of these people knew implicitly that Madoff was running a con and they enticed others to invest so that they could get their money out.

However you can't feel bad for a lot of the victims of Madoff's scheme, they were greedy and believed he could beat the market in ways that no one else could. The people I feel sorry for are the investors in the pension funds where the stupid fund managers invested with madoff when they should have known better. As far as I concerned those managers should be doing jail time as well. The ordinary people whose life savings were wiped out are the real victims.

In contrast you have hustlers who move to a town, invent a profession, lay down for weeks or months to trap all the gamblers while fishing for the big one and they have no guarantee that all their work will pay off. Everyone that the hustler plays thinks that they are stealing or they wouldn't be playing.

Whose fault is it that I look at a guy in a painter's outfit and make an assumption that he can't possibly play as good as me?

Hustling happens every day. I have bought hardware from the companies with the best showrooms, great service, gleaming displays and gotten utter useless crap that they won't take back. Conversely I have bought hardware from the dingiest shops who look like they are on the brink of bankruptcy which is amazingly good.

Believe me wall street is the biggest hustler out there, followed by cell phone companies and insurance. The pool hustler is an angel compared to them.

True that. You know why they call a broker a broker? Because that's what you are after becoming their client...

 

[JB Cases]

With the invention of cell phones & the internet the true hustler/road player is a thing of the past...It use to be kinda like a game between the people who use to gamble on pool...anytime a stranger came thru town wanting to bet on pool...1st a pool detetective would ease in the parking lot to see what state they are from from their license plate on their car..then the phone calls to people you know from that area trying to get a line on their true speed cuz even tho they said they were in town working a regular job everybody knew they were fibbing but that was ok because you was working behind the schenes trying to get a true line on the guy....So every road player had a story & you've heard them all but if one had one that slipped thru the cracks and caught u with your guard down & caught u slipping then you'd have no choice but give the guys his props for originality...So I would have to say he was both villian & hero..cuz when he came to town he was the villian & the locals drew together & tried to defeat him & if he was original & got the money he road out of town like John Dillinger..he left the hero & the town had another story to tell about remember when.

Now you just google the guy & the story pretty much ends there.

See I disagree. I think that todays hustler can lay it down better than anyone if they really think about it.

A guy walks in your place with an APA jacket on and APA patches glued to his case that stop at APA 4. He has three break and run patches there and pins from everywhere. Asks about the local leagues, says he plays for money a little bit but not much etc.....

This is today's move. Pretend to be a league banger and the gamblers will get in line to steal from you.

I remember one year at VF Eddie Abrams ( I think) wore a shirt all week that had TAP league in giant letters across it. He didn't go to the "pit" even once and had customers stuffing his pockets as if he was Jenna Jameson doing a stripping gig at the local club.

It was insane seeing wannbees trying to steal from someone they thought wandered over from the league event.

 

[NewStroke]

See I disagree. I think that todays hustler can lay it down better than anyone if they really think about it.

A guy walks in your place with an APA jacket on and APA patches glued to his case that stop at APA 4. He has three break and run patches there and pins from everywhere. Asks about the local leagues, says he plays for money a little bit but not much etc.....

This is today's move. Pretend to be a league banger and the gamblers will get in line to steal from you.

I remember one year at VF Eddie Abrams ( I think) wore a shirt all week that had TAP league in giant letters across it. He didn't go to the "pit" even once and had customers stuffing his pockets as if he was Jenna Jameson doing a stripping gig at the local club.

It was insane seeing wannbees trying to steal from someone they thought wandered over from the league event.

You should see the action I get walking in with a 5 lb tub of vaseline!

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses. And newstrokes, too. lol!

Gambling and hustling, while they often accompany one another, are two distinct and different animals.

To gamble is to match up or bet on a match that is close to even, or made to be, by way of a spot.

Hustling involves moves (usually deceptive) meant to create mismatches, an edge for the hustler.

As George very astutely pointed out, those who have been 'hustled' figured, at the start, they were the hustlers.

To me, there has always been something romantic about the old school hustlers. One of the best examples ever, involves our very own "Toupee Jay" Helfert, who could get a second chance at the same people with his selective use of a hairpiece. :thumbup: How great was that?!

JB & pt have made very good points. I like the royal flush / pair of deuces analogy.

So, is it Robert Redford or Bernie Madoff?

I guess we'll all have to decide where we feel the lines cross.

I'm going to share an embarrassing tidbit that I just learned in the last day or two.

I live in CT. CT has two well recognized nicknames, "The Constitution State" and "The Nutmeg State". One is pretty obvious as to why, the other, not so much. Well, here you go:

As Connecticut was settled there were but two working harbors along our rocky coast. Farming was not easy for similar rocky conditions in much of the state, that coupled with long cold winters.

Enterprising Connecticutters (that's what they call us here) recognized the movement of people heading west to settle the open country and so they began filling wagons with wares and provisions that would be saleable to these folks out west. Items like pots, pans, needles and thread, and spices that would come into the CT harbors. The "Yankee Peddler" was born.

Apparently, nutmeg was very good at masking the foul tastes and odors of questionable meats which were being stored by the new westerners in root cellars as their only means of preservation.

The closest nutmeg tree to CT at the time was about 1000 miles away. The yankee peddlers would get some nutmeg from the CT ports and during the long snowy winters they would sit and carve other wood to look like nutmeg and when they set out westward in their wagons each spring, they would have barrels on board containing the look-alike wood down low in the barrels with the real nutmeg up top. They would make a sale and dig down deep in the barrel and by the time their customer knew she was grating sawdust into her stew, the yankee peddler was long gone. WTF?!?

Soon these yankee peddlers became known as "Nutmeggers" as a derisive descriptor.

Business people of CT, for some strange reason, actually embraced the new name and considered it a compliment to their shrewdness and business savvy.

So now, the entire state that I call home, is nicknamed for 'hustling' folks by baiting and switching real nutmeg for fake stuff.

Best,
Brian kc

 

[jalapus logan]

Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses. And newstrokes. lol!

Gambling and hustling, while they often accompany one another, are two distinct and different animals.

To gamble is to match up or bet on a match that is close to even, or made to be, by way of a spot.

Hustling involves moves (usually deceptive) meant to create mismatches, an edge for the hustler.

As George very astutely pointed out, those who have been 'hustled' figured, at the start, they were the hustlers.

To me, there has always been something romantic about the old school hustlers. One of the best examples ever, involves our very own "Toupee Jay" Helfert, who could get a second chance at the same people with his selective use of a hairpiece. :thumbup: How great was that?!

JB & pt have made very good points.

So, is it Robert Redford or Bernie Madoff?

I guess we'll all have to decide where we feel the lines cross.

I'm going to share an embarrassing tidbit that I just learned in the last day or two.

I live in CT. CT has two well recognized nicknames, "The Constitution State" and "The Nutmeg State". One is pretty obvious as to why, the other, not so much. Well, here you go:

As Connecticut was settled there were but two working harbors along our rocky coast. Farming was not easy for similar rocky conditions in much of the state, that coupled with long cold winters.

Enterprising Connecticutters (that's what they call us here) recognized the movement of people heading west to settle the open country and so they began filling wagons with wares and provisions that would be saleable to these folks out west. Items like pots, pans, needles and thread, and spices that would come into the CT harbors. The "Yankee Peddler" was born.

Apparently, nutmeg was very good at masking the foul tastes and odors of questionable meats which were being stored by westerners in root cellars as the only means of preservation.

The closest nutmeg tree to CT at the time was about 1000 miles away. The yankee peddlers would get some nutmeg from the CT ports and during the long snowy winters they would sit and carve wood to look like nutmeg and when they set out westward in their wagons each spring, they would have barrels on board containing the look-alike wood down below with thr real nutmeg on top. They would make a sale and dig down deep in the barrel and by the time their customer knew she was grating sawdust into her stew, the yankee peddler was long gone. WTF?!?

Soon these yankee peddlers became known as "Nutmeggers" as a derisive descriptor.

Business people of CT, for some strange reason, actually embraced the new name and considered it a compliment to their shrewdness and business savvy.

So now, the entire state that I call home, is nicknamed for 'hustling' folks by baiting and switching real nutmeg for fake stuff.

Best,
Brian kc

Hmmmm, I wonder how many bankers and politicians your home state has produced over the years?

 

[houmatroy]

Havn't seen the league thing actually work in years !

See I disagree. I think that todays hustler can lay it down better than anyone if they really think about it.

A guy walks in your place with an APA jacket on and APA patches glued to his case that stop at APA 4. He has three break and run patches there and pins from everywhere. Asks about the local leagues, says he plays for money a little bit but not much etc.....

This is today's move. Pretend to be a league banger and the gamblers will get in line to steal from you.

I remember one year at VF Eddie Abrams ( I think) wore a shirt all week that had TAP league in giant letters across it. He didn't go to the "pit" even once and had customers stuffing his pockets as if he was Jenna Jameson doing a stripping gig at the local club.

It was insane seeing wannbees trying to steal from someone they thought wandered over from the league event.

That might have worked a few years back or somewhere else in the country but down south and a few other places i've been nobody will bet more than $5 or $10 a game unless they have your true speed & then they want 2 balls the best of it.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

one more thing...

What do you all think is the mildest form of pool hustling?

I think using a sneaky pete to hide speed is pretty mild (and can be effective).

Besides dumping, what's on the other end of the spectrum that could be considered the most egregious?

Best,
Brian kc

 

[pt109]

What do you all think is the mildest form of pool hustling?

I think using a sneaky pete to hide speed is pretty mild (and can be effective).

Besides dumping, what's on the other end of the spectrum that could be considered the most egregious?

Best,
Brian kc

Egregious?
For me it would be getting 'jarred'.
In action I wouldn't even take a aspirin or a beer.
I'm not a violent person but sometimes I will hold my ground....
...if I caught somebody indisputably jarring me.....I'm going postal

 

[Tramp Steamer]

What do you all think is the mildest form of pool hustling?

I think using a sneaky pete to hide speed is pretty mild (and can be effective).

Besides dumping, what's on the other end of the spectrum that could be considered the most egregious?

Best,
Brian kc

Where I come from there are two things a hustler doesn't do:
(1) Come screeching into the parking lot in a pink '59 Caddy.
(2) Pull out a two-piece cue that looks like a house cue that's been sawed in half.
(3) Fart in the middle of another man's stroke.
We consider that egreegus...egreebus...outrageous behavior.
If the fart smells, then it's even more egreegu...egreebus...outrageous.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

My dentist sent me to an orthodontist for a root canal because he didn't do root canals...the dentist had taken X-rays already of my teeth, but the orthodontist wanted to do his own set....(cha-ching)...He confirms that I need that root canal but also on 2 OTHER TEETH.......Well, my insurance only covers up to $1000 maximum; and he says it will cost $2.500-3000 per tooth X 3 = $7,500 or more....I decided to go elsewhere and get 2nd opinion, and turns out I only needed root canal on the original tooth......Same might go with surgical procedures...if the surgeon tells you that no operation is necessary, he doesn't make any $$$....So many examples can be made about "hustlin"....what about when you go to buy a car?

Do not become a Bank Robber as Federal Prison is in your future. I suggest if you want a LICENSE TO STEAL, go to Medical or Dental School.