The magic of BATA
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That's Joe Davis.Heckler said:
btw: There is a great online book that he wrote, "The Breaks Came My Way"
Read it here: http://www.eaba.co.uk/books/davis/chapter1.html
I'll take Efren on Balkline.jsp said:You're on! The first match will be in one-pocket. Then I'll bet you double or nothing on rotation.
Now...I just have to finish my time machine. Isn't the flux-capacitor just an inductor?
Spot Willie 100 points to 500.
You're welcome.nipponbilliards said:
And btw, it's 22 chapters. A great look into the life and challenges of a pro billiard / snooker player back in the old days.
Those old pros worked very hard to get to the top of the game so they could feed their family.
I have been looking for Joe Davis's book for a very long time.Colin Colenso said:
The oldest snooker book I could find was one written by John Spencer.
I really enjoy reading this one but I am not done yet.
The chapter he had about cue is very interesting. He seems to think that every single cue is different while nowadays most people believe they can have a cue maker to reproduce the same cue for them or they can go and get a 314 shaft and put on whatever cue to get more or less the same hit.
Richard
Since I never get to read Joe's book so I am not sure if it is true but I remember reading from somewhere that Joe Davis said a player should keep his bridge arm completely straight. He also advocated a sideway stance for snooker. I also read that he aimed with his stronger eye.
The snooker stance was later changed to become more square, and a lot of players now rest their elbows on the table.
I am very interested to read his book to compare the sideway snooker stance to the stance that most BCA instructors are teaching their students now. I have a feeling they may be very similiar.
The snooker stance was later changed to become more square, and a lot of players now rest their elbows on the table.
I am very interested to read his book to compare the sideway snooker stance to the stance that most BCA instructors are teaching their students now. I have a feeling they may be very similiar.
It's all in that book and it's free online.nipponbilliards said:
I re-read about 10 chapters last night....very addictive stuff!
Because Joe Davis was the first real snooker star, much of what he said was taken as gospel, but of course, since then, others have gone on to do things their own way and surpass the levels of skill he obtained.
But he broke new ground and was a great all round player as World Billiard and World Snooker Champion at the same time.
The Great Efren
I saw Mosconi play many times (all exhibitions) and he could always deliver a 100 ball run! That alone was amazing.
I saw Efren when he came to Houston in 1985 (as Cesar Morales) and his backers were spotting several games on the wire in all his matches, and he was winning all the side bets as well as the matches (except for one match with Wade Crane that he won 11-7, Crane beat the line but lost the match).
What Efren did then that opened everyones eyes was the way he kicked balls, far superior to the play of any American player. And his position play was also superior with the cue ball always seeming to just barely get there (my observation).
What only John Grissom (the American writer) had discovered was that the filipinos were superior players to the Americans already. In his book "Billiards", he states that he saw players there that could give any American champ the eight ball and beat him. There is actually a photo of a youthful Efren in his book, and a story about Grissom's short match with him. No one believed Grissom's tales until Efren showed up in 1985.
What is common knowledge now is that in the Philipines the game of choice was Rotation, so that Nine Ball appeared a relatively easy game to them.
As it turns out, Efren WAS studying the games of top players all his life, and they were the other filipino champions who preceded him.
He is certainly one of the best players I've seen in my life, maybe THE best. I always think back to Harold Worst in his heyday. He just seemed to be able to elevate his game to whatever level it took to win. In that respect he was a lot like Efren.
cang-ipos said:
I saw Mosconi play many times (all exhibitions) and he could always deliver a 100 ball run! That alone was amazing.
I saw Efren when he came to Houston in 1985 (as Cesar Morales) and his backers were spotting several games on the wire in all his matches, and he was winning all the side bets as well as the matches (except for one match with Wade Crane that he won 11-7, Crane beat the line but lost the match).
What Efren did then that opened everyones eyes was the way he kicked balls, far superior to the play of any American player. And his position play was also superior with the cue ball always seeming to just barely get there (my observation).
What only John Grissom (the American writer) had discovered was that the filipinos were superior players to the Americans already. In his book "Billiards", he states that he saw players there that could give any American champ the eight ball and beat him. There is actually a photo of a youthful Efren in his book, and a story about Grissom's short match with him. No one believed Grissom's tales until Efren showed up in 1985.
What is common knowledge now is that in the Philipines the game of choice was Rotation, so that Nine Ball appeared a relatively easy game to them.
As it turns out, Efren WAS studying the games of top players all his life, and they were the other filipino champions who preceded him.
He is certainly one of the best players I've seen in my life, maybe THE best. I always think back to Harold Worst in his heyday. He just seemed to be able to elevate his game to whatever level it took to win. In that respect he was a lot like Efren.
I'd take Mosconi in balkline and in three cushion over Efren. Well, actually, it would depend on the cloth. On today's billiard cloth maybe Efren...on yesterday's billiard cloth, Mosconi without hesitation.JoeyInCali said:
Deno
The Greatest
Actually, the greatest man with a cue I've seen in my lifetime was.....
Raymond Cuelmans. He has the most solid stance I ever saw, bar none.
And his mastery of the cue ball is nothing short of amazing.
And I'm sure he was not in Joe Davis' league in Snooker or Efren's in Pool. They were and are all the greatest!
Heckler said:
Actually, the greatest man with a cue I've seen in my lifetime was.....
Raymond Cuelmans. He has the most solid stance I ever saw, bar none.
And his mastery of the cue ball is nothing short of amazing.
And I'm sure he was not in Joe Davis' league in Snooker or Efren's in Pool. They were and are all the greatest!
Hey Deno, what do you think of Freddie the Beards comment that Efren beat Sang Lee for cash at every billiard game (pocketless) except three cushion?
Freddie says Efren is world class at straight rail, 1-rail,etc... I know you saw Sang run 50 in 4 innings at 3-C so maybe you've seen those two match up.
I'd take Mosconi over Efren at most games except one pocket and rotation. Even when Sigel, Hall, Varner were playing their best pool, I don't know that Efren would be a big favorite to beat them. Mosconi dominated in an era of bigger tables and tighter pockets and still rained 100's on everyone. How many times did Willie win the 14.1 title against hall of famers? There's a story I've heard about someone gambling with Mosconi in nine ball: guy tells his backer Willie isn't a rotation game player. Willie runs 9 racks and the backer quits. His 3-C was pretty strong too (he used to give Hoppe a decent game); a lot closer to the top level than Efren is to todays players....which brings me to my next point.
Torbjorn Blomdahl is as talented as anyone is pool. Raymond Ceulemens dominated billiards more than anyone has dominated any sport in history just about, but TB came along and showed everyone what the next level looks like.
The most impressive thing to me about Efren is how well he has aged. Other players his age seem to fade out from the big titles but Efren seems to play almost better now with the possible exception of nine ball.
Is there some place that lists Efrens victories? Everyone thinks he's the best (including me) but players like Earl and Johnny have an awful lot of world championships under their belts.
Freddie says Efren is world class at straight rail, 1-rail,etc... I know you saw Sang run 50 in 4 innings at 3-C so maybe you've seen those two match up.
I'd take Mosconi over Efren at most games except one pocket and rotation. Even when Sigel, Hall, Varner were playing their best pool, I don't know that Efren would be a big favorite to beat them. Mosconi dominated in an era of bigger tables and tighter pockets and still rained 100's on everyone. How many times did Willie win the 14.1 title against hall of famers? There's a story I've heard about someone gambling with Mosconi in nine ball: guy tells his backer Willie isn't a rotation game player. Willie runs 9 racks and the backer quits. His 3-C was pretty strong too (he used to give Hoppe a decent game); a lot closer to the top level than Efren is to todays players....which brings me to my next point.
Torbjorn Blomdahl is as talented as anyone is pool. Raymond Ceulemens dominated billiards more than anyone has dominated any sport in history just about, but TB came along and showed everyone what the next level looks like.
The most impressive thing to me about Efren is how well he has aged. Other players his age seem to fade out from the big titles but Efren seems to play almost better now with the possible exception of nine ball.
Is there some place that lists Efrens victories? Everyone thinks he's the best (including me) but players like Earl and Johnny have an awful lot of world championships under their belts.
bud green said:
I don't know if this is a private massage to Deno but I'll chip in my two cents anyway. Thanks first for showing me how to spell Ceulemans. My bad.
I doubt that anyone has won more tournaments than Buddy (I include big tables, bar tables, one pocket, nine ball, eight ball and banks). He has probably won well over 200 total.
I also doubt that anyone has won more big table nine ball tournaments than Earl. U.S. Opens, World Championships, whatever. He's the King. He is the best tournament nine ball player I've ever seen, with one exception. In the finals, no one could match Sigel's record for wins. He just didn't reach the finals as often as Earl.
Efren did lose many matches to players like Earl, Sigel, Nick and Buddy. His problem was an inconsistent break, which was so important in tournament play. Efren had a shallow period from the late 80's to the mid 90's where he rarely won any tournaments he played in. Many seconds, thirds and fourths, but few victories.
The one caveat to the above is that for the cash, no one wanted a piece of Efren. If they played ten ball, no one would have a chance with him. And we all know about Efren's one pocket mastery. Does Efren have the best tournament record? Probably not. Is he the best player? Maybe yes.
The only other candidate for best player in my mind is Parica. He may well be the best pool player that ever lived. That is just my opinion based on what I saw and know about him. He beat everyone for the cash and even the great Efren has shyed away from this matchup. From what I heard, Efren could never beat him in the Philipines. Parica was "Amang", the master. Of course, Parica has had a checkered career, marked by erratic play and questionable ethics.
Fortunately for all of us, we did get to see these great players compete and witness pool at its best.
One last word in this debate. When I was a young man, many of the oldtimers were still around. And to a man, they said Greenleaf was the best player ever. Far better than Mosconi even. And he could and would play any game for money, with few takers. Kind of like Efren and Jose today.
I'd take Efren on any cloth.Deno J. Andrews said:
Nothing worse than napped cloth on open window pool halls in the Philippines.
Hi Bud,
You are correct, I watched SL shoot that game of 50 in 4 innings. I will never forget it...I walked into his room right before the game. He said that we would go to dinner right after the game. I was hungry and told him so. He said that it would be a quick game. Now, for a billiard player a quick 50 pointer is about 90 minutes. So I grabed a Snickers bar and a drink...well, I didn't even get through much of the Snickers...It went 19,11,9,11.
As far as Efren beating SL, I watched him take SL off for a very large sum of money playing 1 cushion. In 3-cushion Efren didn't have a chance...he knew it and never played as far as I know. They didn't play balkline as far as I know. SL was a great player, but 1 cushion was not his game.
Mosconi played world class 3-cushion. Early in his career there was way too much three cushion competition and the exhibition circuit was full of great players. Pool was his game and he was able to dominate the game much like Hoppe dominated billiards. So while his career was in pool, he was no chump in billiards and had beaten several world class champions in actual tournament play. Depsite Efren's genius at cue games, I still think in the dream match that Mosconi would take him in 3 cushion as long as the conditions were how they were for Mosconi and not today's faster and more reliable cloths.
Deno
You are correct, I watched SL shoot that game of 50 in 4 innings. I will never forget it...I walked into his room right before the game. He said that we would go to dinner right after the game. I was hungry and told him so. He said that it would be a quick game. Now, for a billiard player a quick 50 pointer is about 90 minutes. So I grabed a Snickers bar and a drink...well, I didn't even get through much of the Snickers...It went 19,11,9,11.
As far as Efren beating SL, I watched him take SL off for a very large sum of money playing 1 cushion. In 3-cushion Efren didn't have a chance...he knew it and never played as far as I know. They didn't play balkline as far as I know. SL was a great player, but 1 cushion was not his game.
Mosconi played world class 3-cushion. Early in his career there was way too much three cushion competition and the exhibition circuit was full of great players. Pool was his game and he was able to dominate the game much like Hoppe dominated billiards. So while his career was in pool, he was no chump in billiards and had beaten several world class champions in actual tournament play. Depsite Efren's genius at cue games, I still think in the dream match that Mosconi would take him in 3 cushion as long as the conditions were how they were for Mosconi and not today's faster and more reliable cloths.
Deno
If anyone has played in the Phils.....
That's right Joey, the Philippines have the worse conditioned tables in general to play in. Ask those who have played in the Phils. Napped cloth, dead rails, uneven balls, bad slates and more.
Even with poor support for the sport from the government and bad playing conditions, the filipinos excel 'coz they play rotation when they start, (That's for another debate. ) a game far superior than 9-ball or 8-ball, which everyone else starts with this day.
JoeyInCali said:
That's right Joey, the Philippines have the worse conditioned tables in general to play in. Ask those who have played in the Phils. Napped cloth, dead rails, uneven balls, bad slates and more.
Even with poor support for the sport from the government and bad playing conditions, the filipinos excel 'coz they play rotation when they start, (That's for another debate.
) a game far superior than 9-ball or 8-ball, which everyone else starts with this day.
jay helfert said:
I found this article written in 2004 in a Philipino magazine (pre Manalo):
Don't count
me out: Parica
By Manolo R. Iñigo
Inquirer News Service
PARDON Jose "Amang" Parica for complaining. He said the so-called experts of billiards didn't know what they were doing when they virtually ignored his past achievements at the pool table while heaping praises on his longtime rival, Efren "Bata" Reyes.
They were dumb, stressed the 57-year-old Parica, and even dumber to vote Reyes into the Billiards Congress of America (BCA) Hall of Fame in Las Vegas last year when the record will show that he has repeatedly beaten "The Magician" in previous meetings, winning about 70 percent of the time. And to make matters worse, Parica's name was not even mentioned during the Hall of Fame balloting, showing that there was no desire from among the BCA members to nominate him.
Also last year, Parica nearly won his first US Open 9-Ball championship, an event which Reyes topped in 1994. Parica placed second to Jeremy Jones, who beat him in the titular showdown, 11-4, after Jones "deliberately" slowed down play.
"He (Jones) shoots the ball, wipes his hand on a towel, powders his fingers, drinks some water, chalks his stick," Parica said in a postmortem interview with veteran writer Mike Geffner of Billiards Digest. "Every shot towel, powder, water, chalk. Whatever happened to the time clock?"
On this double whammy -- Reyes' induction into the Hall of Fame and his failure to win the US Open -- Parica said, "I've done everything I've wanted to do except two things: win the US Open and get into the Hall of Fame. After I have those, I'll be happy."
Now based in California, Parica is a true-blue Manileño. He was the country's No. 1 pool player before Reyes and Francisco "Django" Bustamante became household names. A holder of an associate degree in engineering from Mapua Institute of Technology, Parica first broke into billiards prominence when he won the Philippine Open 8-Ball title in 1979. He later lined up his pockets with cold cash by posting sizzling victories in Japan, Taiwan and the United States, where he was dubbed "The Leader of the Philippine Invasion" which changed the face of the American 9-ball scene forever.
But Parica is mad that it has been his fate for years -- no matter what he does -- to live in the shadow of Reyes, who, in pool circles, is so highly revered. Parica, who paved the way for Reyes' stint in the US, just doesn't understand why people rate him so much lower than Reyes.
"Efren and I, we play so many times," Parica told Billiards Digest. "We play more than a hundred times gambling and I win most of the time. I think I'm a better player than Efren when it comes to playing for money. I mean, he's a great player and he's tough to beat, but he beats me only when I'm not ready. People just like his game because he's so creative. My game isn't a carnival. I am simple and consistent but dangerous."
Parica started big-time in the US in 1986 when he beat the legendary Nick Varner, 11-10, at the Clyde Childress Open in Lexington, Kentucky. Since then, he has won more than 100 big and small tournaments.
An original member of the powerhouse Puyat Sports Team bankrolled by brothers Popit and Putch Puyat, Parica played alongside Reyes, Bustamante, Leonardo Andam and Rodolfo Luat in the tough US circuit for more than two decades.
In 1997, Parica finally did the country proud when he was named the world's No. 1 billiards player, winning the seven-leg Camel Pro Billiards Tour and the bonus prize of 30,000 dollars. In the opening leg of the Camel Tour, Parica beat no other than Reyes at the Legends of 9-Ball Tournament held in Los Angeles.
Recalling Parica's victory over Reyes, pool writer Dave Thomson said, "Parica was clearly the underdog in the final (most anybody is when playing Reyes). But Reyes was in error mode, allowing Parica too many turns to the table of which he made great use. Partly it was Parica's break that led him to win. It seemed to send the 9-ball consistently toward the corner pocket, needing only a simple run to combo or carom it in."
Parica would later cite Luat as being influential in strengthening his break. "I noticed we are about the same size, and yet, he has so much power and accuracy," Parica said. "So I asked him to teach me how he did it. He showed me how and it worked for me."
He said he has no plans to retire in the near future. "If I'm not making any money anymore in pool, I'll either work with my wife (in home healthcare) or open a pool hall or a billiard store."
On his running rivalry with Reyes, Parica said neither he nor Reyes is the best Filipino player anymore. "It's Django Bustamante," he told Geffner.