The "new" 9-ball: Changing the game to reflect the new equipment

[John Barton]

No Icon, he was making some silly statement under the assumption that we are stupid. He was trying to bait me because he believes for some reason that I think Southpaw or himself or anyone else who doesn't like jump cues is not proficient with them. I don't think that at all.

I would have no problem to do a setup shot challenge. Provided that the ten shots we each have to do are picked by this board. Set it up and I am in. We can do this via the internet and You Tube.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I would use the bunjee. I have already done that experiment Shawn, with elkmasters, mooris, le pros, water buffalos, on jump cues, phenolic on pool cues, g-10, you name it. The 41" inch cue with an elkmaster outjumps the 57" g-10 tipped cue consistently and is easier to control. As a matter of fact I have five shafts right now with different tips on them expressly for the purpose of testing them out for their jumping characteristics, on my Fury JB. I also have an 8 piece shaft for the JB with a Moori tip on it that jumps pretty sporty as a full cue and as a jump cue.

Shawno - whatever you think you know about jump cues I know for sure that I know more. More about the history, the development, the characteristics, more everything. Just be a hater and quit trying to justify it. Faith is belief without reason. So believe that jump cues are evil and suspend reason and you are good to go.

Why are you afraid to do the jump contest with two "real cues" from different manufacturers but with the same tips? Why would you want to remove the tip from the Meucci? Is it because you KNOW that this will increase it's jumpabilty? Come on Shawn, you don't want to rely on a "gimmick" to beat me do you? Do you? Remember you're not jaded just true. I only responded to YOUR remark about using REAL CUES. A Meucci is a REAL CUE, many championships have been won using them, a Tim Scruggs is a REAL CUE, many people swear by them. I will let you install the tips, I am positive that you are honest enough to make them both of equal hardness. But I might bring a Durometer just in case your judgement is a little off.

You want to PROVE something then here is your chance to prove that jump cues are just gimmicks and that any real man can jump with any real cue.

And you know that a stiffer shaft jumps better than a whippy shaft. So you know you're handicapping me to start with. It's why the Bunjee has a taper like a wedge. Real thick, real stiff. Don't get all high and mighty when you're trying to tip the scales in your favour to start with. How about you get a Predator shaft and I get a McDermott i-shaft?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

That is a funny thing to say or use as a comparison. Since steroids are ILLEGAL and jump cues are nothign but LEGAL. Makes no sense. JMO

BVal

You missed the point. He said it was contradictory that I was good with a jump cue, yet against them.

 

[BVal]

He is really reaching BVal, not much of what he said in this thread has made much sense. It's basically a whining session.

Ya it sounds to me like he got beat by somebody with a jump cue cause he played a "great" safety (4 inches from blocker). SOUR GRAPES if you ask me. It would have been easier if he just came out and said " I hate jump cues cause I got beat by one" and left it at that.

BVal

 

[BVal]

You missed the point. He said it was contradictory that I was good with a jump cue, yet against them.

I am not even sure if you know what point you are trying to get across to everyone. So if I could have missed it too. No doubt.

BVal

 

[John Barton]

And you know that a stiffer shaft jumps better than a whippy shaft. So you know you're handicapping me to start with. It's why the Bunjee has a taper like a wedge. Real thick, real stiff. Don't get all high and mighty when you're trying to tip the scales in your favour to start with. How about you get a Predator shaft and I get a McDermott i-shaft?

You are really funny.

So you want to ban a class of cues that gives everyone using them THE SAME CHANCE on a particular shot in favor of a type of cues that you admit have characteristics that make some better and some worse for that same shot?

Thank you for making my point. How you can write this and still DEMAND that people handicap themselves with 58" cues for the jump shot is beyond me.

Well your response in in the books now. Case closed. You can't edit my posts so now you get to live with your contradictions as long as this board exists.

We're done. I won. Sweet. Nothing you can say beyond this point matters.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Keep slagging Justis and Whitten. Keep saying your cue is better than Ned Morris' Airtime. Keep saying your cases are the best. Keep saying you are the best jump shot player and kicker amongst us. Keep saying you're the end all be all billiard expert. Keep pumping whatever you're pumping. We know it's for our own good and not your financial gain.

I thought you were a jerk as John Collins. John Barton is twice the Mr. Potatohead.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

BTW, glad to see the only posts you contribute to have to do with cases, jump cues or jump break cues. Aren't those the things you sell?

Hmmm......................

 

[BVal]

Keep slagging Justis and Whitten. Keep saying your cue is better than Ned Morris' Airtime. Keep saying your cases are the best. Keep saying you are the best jump shot player and kicker amongst us. Keep saying you're the end all be all billiard expert. Keep pumping whatever you're pumping. We know it's for our own good and not your financial gain.

I thought you were a jerk as John Collins. John Barton is twice the Mr. Potatohead.

Here come the personal attacks. Always happens on the losing end of a discussion.

BVal

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I love that you deemed me the "loser". I heard a lot of mixed opinions here on the jump cue issue. Also, the guy claims he "won" when he never answered a single question of mine. Also, most of my statements went straight over your head, so don't claim you contributed much. The steroid thing was an analogy. Instead, you commented on the legality of steroids. Duh? Some guy makes the comment that I'm contradicting myself by saying I'm good with a jump cue, but don't like them. Let me say this in small words so you will understand this concept. I am good with a jump cue. Just because I am good with it, does not mean I think it has its place in the game of pool. My opinion is that it doesn't. John's opinion is tainted by the fact that he profits from the sale of these cues. If they were to be banned, it would cost him a paycheck. If they were banned, you'd have to actually think about strategy and how to kick, or tie up some balls. Instead, it's too easy for you to go to your golf bag, get out your prop stick, use the skill it took 30 minutes to learn, and circumvent the years it took the other player to use cueball control and superior strategy by going over the blocking balls.

Imagine playing pool with only one cue. I'd love to hear you cry if I took away your breaker and jumper and actually forced you to think about the game without the crutches.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I love that you deemed me the "loser". I heard a lot of mixed opinions here on the jump cue issue. Also, the guy claims he "won" when he never answered a single question of mine. Also, most of my statements went straight over your head, so don't claim you contributed much. The steroid thing was an analogy. Instead, you commented on the legality of steroids. Duh? Some guy makes the comment that I'm contradicting myself by saying I'm good with a jump cue, but don't like them. Let me say this in small words so you will understand this concept. I am good with a jump cue. Just because I am good with it, does not mean I think it has its place in the game of pool. My opinion is that it doesn't. John's opinion is tainted by the fact that he profits from the sale of these cues. If they were to be banned, it would cost him a paycheck. If they were banned, you'd have to actually think about strategy and how to kick, or tie up some balls. Instead, it's too easy for you to go to your golf bag, get out your prop stick, use the skill it took 30 minutes to learn, and circumvent the years it took the other player to use cueball control and superior strategy by going over the blocking balls.

Imagine playing pool with only one cue. I'd love to hear you cry if I took away your breaker and jumper and actually forced you to think about the game without the crutches.

TAP TAP TAP

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Before we get side-track,

I think the original question is really about the effect of having a specialized jump cue to someone's jumping ability. When your jumping ability is increased by a factor of 200 or even up to 1000% as some of you stated, I think Shawn original question has merit.

It's almost the same question as to why aluminum bats are not allowed in MLB, why some metal alloys are not allowed in professional golf clubs, or why a tennis racket has to have a certain size of sweet spot and specific thread tension.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Before we get side-track,

I think the original question is really about the effect of having a specialized jump cue to someone jumping ability. When your jumping ability is increased by a factor of 200 or even up to 1000% as some of you stated, I think Shawn original question has merit.

It's almost the same question as to why aluminum bats are not allowed in MLB, why some metal alloys are not allowed in professional golf clubs, or why a tennis racket has to have a certain size of sweet spot and specific thread tension.

Thank God a few of you got my point. Everybody seems to think I'm anti jump. I'm anti-anything that puts the majority of the talent inside the equipment itself. The Predator shaft is low deflection. You still have to stroke the cue properly to make it work. The jump cue bridges the gap between the goods and the greats to marginal at best. I believe that equipment should benefit players, but with an equal return regardless of level. Now, players with less skill can catch up relatively quickly from a mere equipment purchase.

 

[Flex]

Two things:

1) In the decades-old co-opted use of the word "liberal", doesn't it imply fighting for the rights of the weak and the disadvantaged (in a somewhat negative way)? If so, the "liberal" viewpoint on the use of jumpsticks should ABSOLUTELY be the opposite of what Jude is suggesting. The use of jumpsticks is a great equalizer, allowing players of much weaker abilities to get out of safeties. As a general rule, given two equally-intelligent people, I would expect the more "liberal" one to fight for the right to use it.

Steve, you're right about the way the word "liberal" has been used, and it's one of those words with many different meanings to different people. Suffice it to say that, in this instance, I used the word to indicate not what the word means but how people who are "liberal" act when confronted with a specific situation. In such situations, "liberals" can be the most domineering, dismissive people on the planet. Another thing I've noticed over time is that "liberals" tend to favor the idea that the end justifies the means, so in this case, the end would be what Jude wants: to have rules that favor his winning, and not his opponent. So whatever the means, whether appealing to a sense of the way pool used to be, or getting the organizers of a tournament, or league, or organization, to outlaw their use, would be good. (Never mind that jump cues have become a part of the game, to some extent, in recent years.) I realize Jude didn't actually say all that, but that's what I took from his comments.


2) You are 100% correct when you say "To people not from New York, many New Yorkers are brash. Can't say as I agree with that, but many people hold that view." A good friend and great player just came back from a months-long vacation walking the mountains and plains in western europe. He said he got in one major argument the whole time, with a lady from California.

As soon as they met and she found out she was from NY, she was egging him on with all kinds of bullshit. He tried to remain polite, but she kept needling him. Not playfully, just annoyingly. It got to a point that he couldn't take it anymore, ended up cursing at her, and of course she replied with, "Oh, just like a New Yorker." People are funny, aren't they?

You bet they are!

I often think about how right after 9/11, I heard people being interviewed in middle America about seeing NYers lined up immediately after the attacks to give blood and to volunteer. And the overwhelming sentiment from these people was, "wow, I didn't expect people in NEW YORK CITY to do that." It was actually touching to hear, because maybe, at the very least in those dark, dark days, it had helped to shape NY's image a bit differently across the world.

But I'm sure that stuff has long been forgotten.

The people from the beautiful City of New York who came out and performed the great, heroic deeds after 9/11 are a never ending source of inspiration to me, and I'm sure, millions of others, both in the U.S. and around the world. They are some of the best that New York has to offer; my hat's off to them. Would that all our compatriots were so generous and courageous.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

- Steve

Thanks, Steve, for your usual, well thought out comments.

Flex

 

[Southpaw]

I don't remember this being a stipulation in the game YOU proposed but I suppose if you feel the need to use a shaft to insure that you can jump a ball then you are welcome to it. I hope you won't mind of I bring some books and crib notes on kicking just in case I run into a shot I am not sure about.

I find it awfully hypocritical that you say it's so very easy to jump, takes no skill, when using a jump (gimmick, in your words) cue, yet you are not confident enough to use one and want to go to an eve easier method of jumping by using just a shaft. That's fine with me though. Because I already know that while it is easy to make the ball jump with a shaft it is much harder to control the cueball. So use whatever you like, even a jump rod if you can find one. I don't care. I know which jump cues offer the best balance of jumpability and cueball control so if you don't want to use one those then it's more the better for me.

Race to 9 for $1000 - you MUST attempt a jump on every safety and I MUST attempt a kick on every safety. No bunting balls into clusters just to avoid selling out. We will videotape the match and any violation of this requirement forfeits the stake.

Deal?

I will use only the legal equipment. The shaft jump was in response to a jump rod that Shawn mentioned. I have already stated that I can use a full length cue as well as a jump cue. This is not a matter of whether I can jump or not...I can. But, it takes more knowledge to kick properly than to jump....no question about it.

Southpaw

Southpaw

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I'd go with the proposition shots instead of the race. You could prove you point, but still lose the money, which makes no sense. I'd get someone to draw up shots and shoot them. Minimum of 5" from cueball to any blocker. You can position the other balls anywhere you want, other than in the direct line between the blocker ball and the object ball. One ball only between cueball and target ball. You can block rail targets off, but nothing directly in the way of the line of the kick either. I could draw up some impartial shots, but I doubt John would let me. Get Bob Jewitt or BlackJack to pick the prop shots and have at it. No takes in between shots. Set them up exactly according to the drawings given. Shoot the shots. Set them up with no cuts and no editing. Score a 3 for a contact on the first try, a 2 for the second, a 1 for the third try, and a 0 if you can't complete the shots in three attempts.

Let's see if using those "diamond thingies" is as easy as jumping. In fact, if anyone's up to the challenge, would anyone like to participate in a player's challenge? I'll make up 10 shots. Shoot them, jumping and kicking. See how you score on both, and post your results. Nothing on the line. Just for information. I'd like to see how everyone ranks on their successful jump contacts versus kicking contacts.

 

[BVal]

I love that you deemed me the "loser". I heard a lot of mixed opinions here on the jump cue issue. Also, the guy claims he "won" when he never answered a single question of mine. Also, most of my statements went straight over your head, so don't claim you contributed much. The steroid thing was an analogy. Instead, you commented on the legality of steroids. Duh? Some guy makes the comment that I'm contradicting myself by saying I'm good with a jump cue, but don't like them. Let me say this in small words so you will understand this concept. I am good with a jump cue. Just because I am good with it, does not mean I think it has its place in the game of pool. My opinion is that it doesn't. John's opinion is tainted by the fact that he profits from the sale of these cues. If they were to be banned, it would cost him a paycheck. If they were banned, you'd have to actually think about strategy and how to kick, or tie up some balls. Instead, it's too easy for you to go to your golf bag, get out your prop stick, use the skill it took 30 minutes to learn, and circumvent the years it took the other player to use cueball control and superior strategy by going over the blocking balls.

Imagine playing pool with only one cue. I'd love to hear you cry if I took away your breaker and jumper and actually forced you to think about the game without the crutches.

Can you please use smaller words I am still having trouble comprehending your statements. LMFAO. With the anaology - it was way off. You are comparing two completely separate things. One is a legal thing to use in the game and the other is not. Therefore, it makes no sense at all and is quite funny. IMO. I am curious as to why you have and use a jump cue if in your opinion they have no place in the game of pool. If you think they should be banned they why don't you ban yourself from using one. It would only make sense with your opinions. Otherwise you are just a hypocrite, preaching about how they should be banned but at the same time using one.
As for you infering that I don't use strategy or think about the game when I play is just laughable. If I only had to play with one cue I would adjust my game accordingly. Unfortunately, for you, those are not the rules of the game. Instead of tightening up your safety play and becoming better at those you would rather ban something that has been around for 20 years so you don't have to get better. I took the initiative to go out and take a safety seminar to become better at safeties.
As far as being on the losing end of the conversation. In my experience when somebody starts making personal attacks it is because they are desperate or wrong and have nothing to say in response exept for an attack.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Can you please use smaller words I am still having trouble comprehending your statements. LMFAO. With the anaology - it was way off. You are comparing two completely separate things. One is a legal thing to use in the game and the other is not. Therefore, it makes no sense at all and is quite funny. IMO. I am curious as to why you have and use a jump cue if in your opinion they have no place in the game of pool. If you think they should be banned they why don't you ban yourself from using one. It would only make sense with your opinions. Otherwise you are just a hypocrite, preaching about how they should be banned but at the same time using one.
As for you infering that I don't use strategy or think about the game when I play is just laughable. If I only had to play with one cue I would adjust my game accordingly. Unfortunately, for you, those are not the rules of the game. Instead of tightening up your safety play and becoming better at those you would rather ban something that has been around for 20 years so you don't have to get better. I took the initiative to go out and take a safety seminar to become better at safeties.
As far as being on the losing end of the conversation. In my experience when somebody starts making personal attacks it is because they are desperate or wrong and have nothing to say in response exept for an attack.

Take my challenge and see how good your kicking is versus your jumping. I'm being honest. Let me draw up 10 table scenarios where you kick at the ball and jump at the ball. Grade yourself and come back with the numbers.

As far as the jump cue, I make the odd cue, so I have them around. I only ever break them out for events that allow them, when I decide to play in these events. What I laugh about is this "crying" you're hearing me doing. I elected to post some rule changes to accomodate those of us that would prefer pool be played without the gimmick stick. Just because I make them and have been known to use one, doesn't make them proper for the game. It makes me the Anti-Barton. I could profit from making them, but usually choose to bypass that particular business. I, personally, hate the jump cue. Texas Express rules have made a place for the jump cue, according to John. The purpose of the TE rules was to speed up the game. Instead of giving out ball in hand on a good safety now, which would usually result in loss of rack, we now allow the jump cue to be used. Seems like it has counteracted the TE rules. Now the game is longer due to less ball in hand fouls, and we no longer reward good safeties, only flawless ones. Seems like you want to raise the bar on safety play, but lower it in regards to kicking skills. What a shame.

 

[Blackjack]

Wow. I wonder what this thread was REALLY about 16 pages ago. lol.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Wow. I wonder what this thread was REALLY about 16 pages ago. lol.

It's funny. 16 pages later, it's still about the jump cue. A few flake outs here and there, but pretty much on topic.