The Obvious Difference Between 1980's 9-Ball and Today's 9-Ball

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dnschmidt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been watching some of the YouTube matches put up by a fellow AZB poster. This particular match was Nick Varner vs. Dave Bowman. The entire complexion of 9-ball is different now than it was then and I feel the reason is the speed of Simonis 860 cloth.

1) These guys hit every shot with draw. Today follow is the cue ball spin of choice.
2) The cloth being used in these old matches is shag rug slow. These guys needed stroke to move the ball around the table. Today you go three rails with no problem.
3) Their safety play is relatively weak compared to modern players. Efren changed the game forever with his ability to get out of anything and put his opponent in jail.

Incredible how different the game technically is today from what it was then .
 
The faster cloth also affects breaking strategy. With a slow nap wool cloth a soft break probably doesn't have nearly as much benefit even when using a template.
 
dnschmidt said:
Efren changed the game forever with his ability to . . . put his opponent in jail.
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You make some valid points, DN. One thing I'd submit however, is that Mike Sigel was called "Captain Hook" for good reason (and for years before Efren arrived with his own unique safety play talent on the US pool scene).

Arnaldo
 
They should try to slower cloth for a change and see how the modern players would do. They would also have to go back to the wider pockets to be fair as well. They'd probably adjust after a few tournaments.

When did the shift toward faster cloth occur?
 
westcoast said:
They should try to slower cloth for a change and see how the modern players would do. They would also have to go back to the wider pockets to be fair as well. They'd probably adjust after a few tournaments.

When did the shift toward faster cloth occur?
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Go watch the big semi annual 9 ball tourney at brickyard billiards on the Valley tables if you want to see 9 ball played on slow cloth...
 
westcoast said:
They should try to slower cloth for a change and see how the modern players would do. They would also have to go back to the wider pockets to be fair as well. They'd probably adjust after a few tournaments.

When did the shift toward faster cloth occur?
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They did. At the IPT. The older players did not seem to mind it as much.
 
Todays 9 ball

dnschmidt said:
I've been watching some of the YouTube matches put up by a fellow AZB poster. This particular match was Nick Varner vs. Dave Bowman. The entire complexion of 9-ball is different now than it was then and I feel the reason is the speed of Simonis 860 cloth.

1) These guys hit every shot with draw. Today follow is the cue ball spin of choice.
2) The cloth being used in these old matches is shag rug slow. These guys needed stroke to move the ball around the table. Today you go three rails with no problem.
3) Their safety play is relatively weak compared to modern players. Efren changed the game forever with his ability to get out of anything and put his opponent in jail.

Incredible how different the game technically is today from what it was then .
Click to expand...

I never thought I would be saying this 3 yrs ago but now Im not even interested in playing 9 ball. I played some yesterday with an APA 3. Its still a good game for him because he couldn't run 3 balls but for an advanced player, the break is the game, its a trick shot contest, then run out if they are spread good. At this point 8 ball has a lot of appeal over 9 ball because you at least have to be able to make some decisions about order and what balls to take. Ive become a One Pocket fan and love it.
 
The game was better when it was on slow cloth etc IMO. Do I think the top guys of today could adjust? Of course they could. But the rest of the field would go back down accordingly. There are a higher number of good amateur players these days it seems, and I think easier playing conditions and looser rules have played a detrimental role in that shift. I think that putting the game back on equipment that if you get out of line you cant just spin your way out of it with ease, would re-widen (coined a new one there) the gap in skill level between the amateurs and the pros.
 
336Robin said:
I never thought I would be saying this 3 yrs ago but now Im not even interested in playing 9 ball. I played some yesterday with an APA 3. Its still a good game for him because he couldn't run 3 balls but for an advanced player, the break is the game, its a trick shot contest, then run out if they are spread good. At this point 8 ball has a lot of appeal over 9 ball because you at least have to be able to make some decisions about order and what balls to take. Ive become a One Pocket fan and love it.
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I agree Robin, in that the break plays such a disproportional factor in the game... this is at least as true in 8-ball.

Haven't played much one pocket, but watched probably 100 hours of the game with interest. While it's not a break dominated game, in line with snooker and traditional billiard games, I think the game weighs in favor of the tactician too much over the shot-maker.

I've developed a highly offensive game that reduces the impact of the break, eliminates safety and encourages shot-making. Under the banner of Stroke Pool, there are versions for Snooker, 8-ball sets and rotation. Essentially, to continue a visit, 2 rails, in addition to a pot called must be hit. Not doing so gives Ball In Hand to the incoming player. All versions award points per ball, not win only points. It forces creative play and advanced stroke making, which I think we need to promote the game in this X-treme sports generation.
 
arnaldo said:
You make some valid points, DN. One thing I'd submit however, is that Mike Sigel was called "Captain Hook" for good reason (and for years before Efren arrived with his own unique safety play talent on the US pool scene).

Arnaldo
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That is indeed true. Mike could give his opponents a life sentence. And there are some who think the Phillipinos bought over shooting behind the back, though it had been done by older players for years.

The great Luther Lassiter
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Even Martin Luther King knew the move.
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Chuck Fields said:
The game was better when it was on slow cloth etc IMO. Do I think the top guys of today could adjust? Of course they could. But the rest of the field would go back down accordingly. There are a higher number of good amateur players these days it seems, and I think easier playing conditions and looser rules have played a detrimental role in that shift. I think that putting the game back on equipment that if you get out of line you cant just spin your way out of it with ease, would re-widen (coined a new one there) the gap in skill level between the amateurs and the pros.
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The gap between pros and amateurs is still wide. Heck, the gap between some pros and other pros is also pretty wide.
 
iusedtoberich said:
But the younger players still were in all of the top 10 spots of all of those events. Save for Efren, who is god;)
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And this was a surprise? The older players like Martin etc... probably play 3 days a year now.

I know John was not liking Sigel to much in the straight pool (for an older guy who don't play you know).
 
The reason I said that was the best of the current day will be the best regardless of table conditoins. I took your earlier post to imply that if the table conditions returned to what the older players grew up on, the older players would have an edge.
 
iusedtoberich said:
The reason I said that was the best of the current day will be the best regardless of table conditoins. I took your earlier post to imply that if the table conditions returned to what the older players grew up on, the older players would have an edge.
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They did not whimper about the conditions like some of the younger players. But not being used to playing tournaments anymore, nor practicing on a consistent basis is a huge deficit to overcome, so it was no surpise. Consistency for some of them were way off. PLayed good one day and not to good the next. That comes from practicing everyday and becoming more consistant as we all know.

No doubt in my mind though that the players of yesterday could easily play with anyone today (in their own caliber). As back then there were also levels of a pro player.
 
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I've heard it said that if slow cloth were used today, Rodney Morris would be the top player. He does have a powerful stroke, but don't they all?

Personally I'll take fast cloth over slow any day, every day.
 
I've played on both fast and slow cloth over a 60+ year period. In fact I had my first Valley covered with the old rubber back cloth about 9 years ago. Some guy on here had a roll of it. Over the 9 years I've had slow, fast, and medium speed cloth on my Valley's. IMO I play the same speed on any of it. IMO today's top players play better and are smarter. I prefer Champion Tour cloth. Johnnyt
 
The IPT attempted to bring in slow cloths with their thick nap version.

Problem is, it played pretty quick when new and the rails slid like they were covered in Vaseline when laid down brand new.

I had one in my humid apartment on the 17th floor in Shanghai, China and after a couple of months it played like those good old grippy slow tables. Too little, too late, the tourney was bust coz side hardly took off the rails.
 
Johnnyt said:
IMO today's top players play better and are smarter.Johnnyt
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So, have any proof of this? What has been done in pool lately that has not already been done? Besides a change in the popularity of games. ie: Straight Pool to 9-Ball, etc....
 
flyvirginiaguy said:
So, have any proof of this? What has been done in pool lately that has not already been done? Besides a change in the popularity of games. ie: Straight Pool to 9-Ball, etc....
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Stats would prove their inferiority compared to today's top players, but just look at the strokes on most of them... and some of the basic shots hit poorly. Grady's pre-shot routine was reminiscent of a teen banger at times and some of his shots were about as bad. Davenport's pull across shots were equally as amateurish and Earl wasn't too flash either.

SVB and Appleton would roll through that field like lead through water.

That said, the production was top notch and better viewing than anything out of the US in years.
 
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