The pendulum stroke must die!

[ShootingArts]

Karen did OK

I wonder how they play on slow cloth.

Joey,

If I remember correctly, Karen was impressive in the IPT. It would be fun to scare up some video of her moving the cue ball around on those tables.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

Those lying video's(grin)

Johnny,

I have been playing with video a little lately as I mentioned. Those lying video's will sure show us things we don't do sometimes. Everybody I video taped including myself was surprised at some of the things we saw. Having paid close attention to what people thought they did and what they actually did in the past I wasn't too surprised to find something but I didn't have a clue I had some head movement looking back and forth sometimes.

You shoot with a pretty hard grip and the wrist movement is very obvious. Nothing wrong with that of course, just a reminder that humans don't come from the factory with the optimum design to play pool. Does look like you are hitting them pretty good.

Hu

Hu:

Bending the shaft at the finish is another form of compensation. I never realized I was doing it until I taped myself:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6912406045383460884

I was practicing last week and was opening my bridge at the finish, allowing the cue to go forward and up.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Johnny,

I have been playing with video a little lately as I mentioned. Those lying video's will sure show us things we don't do sometimes. Everybody I video taped including myself was surprised at some of the things we saw. Having paid close attention to what people thought they did and what they actually did in the past I wasn't too surprised to find something but I didn't have a clue I had some head movement looking back and forth sometimes.

You shoot with a pretty hard grip and the wrist movement is very obvious. Nothing wrong with that of course, just a reminder that humans don't come from the factory with the optimum design to play pool. Does look like you are hitting them pretty good.

Hu

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837662076022711943
Just learn the Wayne Norcross stroke slip. Patterned after Willie himself.
Btw, if you want to learn how to play straight-pool, Wayne's da man to learn from.
He's been playing straight pool since Moses died.

 

[ShootingArts]

I'll take a look

Joey,

I'll take a look. I watched Willie on I think Wide World of Sports when the corners of the world were still barely rounded, long before the Willie/Fats match-ups. I learned a lot just watching Willie that short time. It simply changed my perception of what was possible on a pool table. While I never was quite as good as Willie, my game rose to a level I wasn't even trying to achieve before he led the way.

Hu

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837662076022711943
Just learn the Wayne Norcross stroke slip. Patterned after Willie himself.
Btw, if you want to learn how to play straight-pool, Wayne's da man to learn from.
He's been playing straight pool since Moses died.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey,

I'll take a look. I watched Willie on I think Wide World of Sports when the corners of the world were still barely rounded, long before the Willie/Fats match-ups. I learned a lot just watching Willie that short time. It simply changed my perception of what was possible on a pool table. While I never was quite as good as Willie, my game rose to a level I wasn't even trying to achieve before he led the way.

Hu

I'll give Willie the 7-out now.

 

[ShootingArts]

Ray Charles gives me the seven

I'll give Willie the 7-out now.

Ray Charles gives me the seven and he is dead too, and blind besides!

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have given the reasons compensation is necessary repeatedly. It is as simple as the need to transform an arc into a linear motion.

What need? The stick sliding through the bridge already transforms the arc of your arm into a more linear motion.

At it's purest the arc of the pendulum stroke makes it impossible to keep the stick in a bridge and the bridge on the table without compensation for the arc of the pendulum stroke. Oddly enough or perhaps not so oddly, not one other person has expressed any issues grasping that fact.

Oddly enough, you're simply wrong. It's not impossible or even difficult.

Since you are unable to visualize simple concepts,

Again with the snide comments. I thought you weren't angry.

...test for yourself. Build a 90 degree apparatus. Wood, PCV, whatever is handy as long as it is reasonably rigid. The long leg of this construction which will represent the cue stick from where the hand grips the stick to the tip should be 44"-48" inches long, the short leg should be maybe 16". Now drill a hole for a pivot point in the 16" leg fourteen inches from the base of the angle formed by the two legs so that the pivot will move in the same direction as a human elbow joint. Place a bolt, bar or other appropriate material through the pivot hole to use as the pivot. Position whatever stand you use to support this pivot so that the bottom of the long leg is roughly 7/8" above a table when parallel to the table. Allow the entire right angle assembly to swing freely from the pivot.

You now have a fair representation of an arm from the elbow down and the cue stick from the grip to the tip, with zero compensation.

Or I could just stroke on a table with a stick.

The first thing you will discover is that very little backswing is possible due to the tip of the long leg, representing the tip of a cue stick, hitting the table.

I discover no such thing. I discover that on a pendulum backswing the tip doesn't go near the cloth.

A very limited backstroke is possible and many alignment and aiming techniques become impossible. Hitting the cue ball low is severely restricted also. Of course any bridge at all would further inhibit this rearward movement.

What are you talking about? None of this is true with a pendulum stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[JohnnyP]

Joey:

Did you catch Wayne's stroke-slip at 1:10 in that clip. The cue ball is in the jaws of the pocket and he shoots the ten ball up table. He chokes up on the cue, then stokes and releases the cue.

Did you hear my little joke when he asked if my camera has sound? I told him don't worry, I'll bleep out all the F words.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey:

Did you catch Wayne's stroke-slip at 1:10 in that clip. The cue ball is in the jaws of the pocket and he shoots the ten ball up table. He chokes up on the cue, then stokes and releases the cue.

Did you hear my little joke when he asked if my camera has sound? I told him don't worry, I'll bleep out all the F words.

I got dizzy watching it.
Time to hire Wayne and put out a professional straight-pool video instructional.
Do it soon while Wayne still runs em smooth.
Can you imagine Efren if he played with Wayne some straight pool for a year?

 

[JohnnyP]

Joey:

Yeah, I got dizzy watching it, too. My first hand held deal. Shades of Blair Witch Project.

 

[td873]

What need? The stick sliding through the bridge already transforms the arc of your arm into a more linear motion.

[...]

Or I could just stroke on a table with a stick.

I discover no such thing. I discover that on a pendulum backswing the tip doesn't go near the cloth.

What are you talking about? None of this is true with a pendulum stroke.

I think the disconnect is that PJ is discussing a type of grip where the butt of the cue is on a fulcrum of its own such that pendulum stroking allows the butt of the cue to pivot during the backswing. I'm not sure if this is accurate, but I think that's he's saying. Basically, the grip hand is not rigidly holding the butt of the cue. In fact, I've seen some people open and close their grip hands during the stroke to allow the stick to pendulum better.

I understand that Hu is talking about the standard grip used by most players that requires some sort of compensation by the grip wrist in order to execute the stroke.

Dunno if that's right, but it was worth a try.

-td

 

[ShootingArts]

you have to understand basics before moving on

Patrick,

We just ran this rabbit recently concerning basic concepts. You alleged to not grasp basic concepts in that thread, you allege the same thing here. I have no interest in discussing this further with you until you understand the basic motion of a pendulum with an arm rigidly attached. If and when you grasp that then you can reread the information concerning the various manners in which that motion can be modified.

If you still can't visualize the basic original motion of the pendulum stroke at this point you sincerely need to make a model or cut out a scaled down paper version, something that lets you see with your own eyes what we are starting with. When you simply stroke a stick on the table you are seeing what we finish with and according to your posts failing to grasp how we got there. I can understand your anger at not being able to understand simple things but transferring that anger onto me isn't acceptable. Far from being angry with you I have given you the benefit of the doubt and been extremely patient.

I have explained things as I would to most fellow adults, simplified the explanation to an extreme, and given it in detail a child should grasp. It you are honestly still in the dark it is time to test for yourself. The tone of your posts makes it plain that you aren't reading mine with an open mind.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

plenty good enough!

Joey:

Yeah, I got dizzy watching it, too. My first hand held deal. Shades of Blair Witch Project.

Johnny,

The camera work was plenty good enough. That stroke is almost like slight of hand though, very difficult to show plainly. Viewing the video definitely gives the feeling of watching a master that has used that same stroke a million times before.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...I can understand your anger at not being able to understand simple things but transferring that anger onto me isn't acceptable.

But it's you who answers my questions with insults, Hu - you who seems to be intent on "transferring that anger". Either you don't really know the details I ask for or it's too much drama for you to be asked for them. Either way I can live without it.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think the disconnect is that PJ is discussing a type of grip where the butt of the cue is on a fulcrum of its own such that pendulum stroking allows the butt of the cue to pivot during the backswing. I'm not sure if this is accurate, but I think that's he's saying. Basically, the grip hand is not rigidly holding the butt of the cue. In fact, I've seen some people open and close their grip hands during the stroke to allow the stick to pendulum better.

I understand that Hu is talking about the standard grip used by most players that requires some sort of compensation by the grip wrist in order to execute the stroke.

Dunno if that's right, but it was worth a try.

That's right; I offered a couple of simple ways those things are coped with by players who don't want to move other body parts, and seemed to step on Hu's ego. Oh well. There are lots of threads.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyInCali]

Johnny,

The camera work was plenty good enough. That stroke is almost like slight of hand though, very difficult to show plainly. Viewing the video definitely gives the feeling of watching a master that has used that same stroke a million times before.

Hu

Wayne does his practice stroke with the grip hand a little forward ala Willie HE CLAIMS.
Then at the last stroke/pause, he slides the grip hand a little back, then shoots. Lets the cue slide too ala Efren. Bakersfield Bobby ( great barbox player in the 70's did the same supposedly ).
That's a Cassanova cue he's playing ( apprentice of Judd Fuller ). The wrap is smooth like Wayne likes it. What's so freakin odd too is Wayne can be playing with a cue for freakin years and the cue would still look like a month old.
Wayne toured with Willie and played at The Stardust for the world straight pool. Got on the money. Has album of pictures to show for his resume.

 

[ShootingArts]

is English a second language for you?

That's right; I offered a couple of simple ways those things are coped with by players who don't want to move other body parts, and seemed to step on Hu's ego. Oh well. There are lots of threads.

pj
chgo

"coped with" is the same as "compensated" Your failure to grasp something as simple as that illustrates why we can't communicate. You deny understanding what I am saying when you say the same thing using different words. I can't explain to someone who doesn't want to understand. Please feel free to move on to cluttering other people's threads with endless meaningless chatter. I won't be upset, I promise! (some happy faces for you too, I'm now trying graphic aids.

Hu

 

[David Beck]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837662076022711943
Just learn the Wayne Norcross stroke slip. Patterned after Willie himself.
Btw, if you want to learn how to play straight-pool, Wayne's da man to learn from.
He's been playing straight pool since Moses died.

That's what I do, besides the whole choking up part, and he makes it look a lot easier. I hadn't actually seen this done by anyone before. Looks like he's using a stacked leather wrap too, I think. Kinda hard to tell. Probably better than linen for that stroke.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
... I offered a couple of simple ways those things are coped with by players who don't want to move other body parts...

Hu:
"coped with" is the same as "compensated" Your failure to grasp something as simple as that illustrates why we can't communicate. You deny understanding what I am saying when you say the same thing using different words.You deny understanding what I am saying when you say the same thing using different words.

These are semantic games. Our difference is that I don't believe it's necessary to change the pendulum arc and you apparently do. I gave concrete ways it can be avoided and asked why you thought otherwise. Do you no longer think otherwise?

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

A thing of beauty

Thanks for the details. That looks like a million dollar stroke. I could make myself crazy for years trying to get it down I suspect but it would be almost worth it just to own that skill even if I never used it to make money.

He reminds me of a master playing a violin.

Hu

Wayne does his practice stroke with the grip hand a little forward ala Willie HE CLAIMS.
Then at the last stroke/pause, he slides the grip hand a little back, then shoots. Lets the cue slide too ala Efren. Bakersfield Bobby ( great barbox player in the 70's did the same supposedly ).
That's a Cassanova cue he's playing ( apprentice of Judd Fuller ). The wrap is smooth like Wayne likes it. What's so freakin odd too is Wayne can be playing with a cue for freakin years and the cue would still look like a month old.
Wayne toured with Willie and played at The Stardust for the world straight pool. Got on the money. Has album of pictures to show for his resume.