The pendulum stroke must die!

[ShootingArts]

no interest in continuing

pj,

Reading your posts in various threads makes plain that you really are stunningly lacking in knowledge concerning mechanical theory and practice. I have no interest in trying to take you from kindergarten forward with you fighting every inch of the way.

Hu

These are semantic games. Our difference is that I don't believe it's necessary to change the pendulum arc and you apparently do. I gave concrete ways it can be avoided and asked why you thought otherwise. Do you no longer think otherwise?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

pj,

Reading your posts in various threads makes plain that you really are stunningly lacking in knowledge concerning mechanical theory and practice. I have no interest in trying to take you from kindergarten forward with you fighting every inch of the way.

Hu

Since you haven't even clearly described your assertions (much less supported them in any way), I won't be feeling too much of a loss about that.

And I guess this means you decline yet again to answer the direct question put to you: why does the pendulum arc need to change?

pj
chgo

 

[Scott Lee]

Hu...I have read every post here, and I firmly believe that all that is lacking is for you to spend a few hours with Randyg or myself. There is something in how you're applying a 'pendulum' swing that compromises your ability to make it "easy". A correct swing allows for any speed, even a break, with extremely accurate cuetip contact, and a well-defined finish (read: followthrough), that is specific to how YOUR arm works with YOUR body...nothing else. Done properly, it also requires no muscle, so there is no fatigue factor, even if you play for hours. I would love a chance to work with you, and see if I could help you. Two years is a long time to struggle... Maybe the next time I'm down in Louisiana!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[ShootingArts]

maybe so

Scott,

I would like to meet you and of course I am always open to learning. As I mentioned early in this thread, my side trip is likely to be of only a few months duration. My normal stroke would probably be considered a pendulum stroke although I deliberately modify it a bit. It is when I attempt a pure pendulum with zero elbow movement that my difficulties begin. Similar to what others have mentioned, it doesn't feel natural to me and I tire fairly quickly.

I am also experimenting with a stroke that has little resemblance to a pendulum largely out of curiosity. Possibly elements of both strokes will become part of my game or in all likelihood I will return to the stroke I use now.

I'm going to send you an e-mail with a little extra info.

Hu

Hu...I have read every post here, and I firmly believe that all that is lacking is for you to spend a few hours with Randyg or myself. There is something in how you're applying a 'pendulum' swing that compromises your ability to make it "easy". A correct swing allows for any speed, even a break, with extremely accurate cuetip contact, and a well-defined finish (read: followthrough), that is specific to how YOUR arm works with YOUR body...nothing else. Done properly, it also requires no muscle, so there is no fatigue factor, even if you play for hours. I would love a chance to work with you, and see if I could help you. Two years is a long time to struggle... Maybe the next time I'm down in Louisiana!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[ShootingArts]

waste of time to further repeat myself

Since you haven't even clearly described your assertions (much less supported them in any way), I won't be feeling too much of a loss about that.

And I guess this means you decline yet again to answer the direct question put to you: why does the pendulum arc need to change?

pj
chgo

pj,

Everything you are asking for has already been provided repeatedly and in manners that everyone else seems to have understood. When you are the only one failing to comprehend it is obvious where the problem is. I will not further waste time putting information in front of you that you can't comprehend. You can read and reread my earlier posts until you do understand if you are really interested.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

pj,

Everything you are asking for has already been provided repeatedly and in manners that everyone else seems to have understood. When you are the only one failing to comprehend it is obvious where the problem is. I will not further waste time putting information in front of you that you can't comprehend. You can read and reread my earlier posts until you do understand if you are really interested.

Hu

Since I seem to have such difficulty understanding your sophisticated posts, maybe you'll be generous and help me out.

This appears to be the crux of your assertion:

Of course we all have to compensate for the arc of a pendulum stroke if we use it. The loose grip is a compensation in itself but I don't think that you will find a match video of a single player that relies solely on a loose grip to compensate for the short arc of the pendulum stroke throughout the match.

I've explained that the pendulum arc is no problem if you set up correctly and use a loose grip. You've never bothered to say why that isn't so, despite being asked directly several times. This is "everything I'm asking for". The fact that you think it "has been provided repeatedly" makes me think either you don't understand the question or you're purposely avoiding it.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

nope avoiding you

Simply avoiding further pointing out of the obvious to you. A waste of my time and effort to try to take you from kindergarten. Watch some video of the pendulum stroke if you can't figure out for yourself why a loose grip isn't enough.

I taught classes. I learned some people liked to argue just for the attention and were unwilling to think or solve anything for themselves. You definitely fall into that category. You aren't seeking to learn or expand your knowledge, you are looking for something else to argue about. I'm not playing.

Hu

Since I seem to have such difficulty understanding your sophisticated posts, maybe you'll be generous and help me out.

This appears to be the crux of your assertion:



I've explained that the pendulum arc is no problem if you set up correctly and use a loose grip. You've never bothered to say why that isn't so, despite being asked directly several times. This is "everything I'm asking for". The fact that you think it "has been provided repeatedly" makes me think either you don't understand the question or you're purposely avoiding it.

pj
chgo

 

[td873]

...some people liked to argue just for the attention and were unwilling to think or solve anything for themselves...

Are you making fun of us lawyers j/k

Hu, I have some thoughts on other areas of the pool world that I want to bounce off you. Maybe later this week, or early next week. I'm in the weeds at work now though, so I'll PM you when I get caught up. As for the stroke issue, I still think it's perfectly fine for you (or anyone) to experiment to find what works for them. The issue is some people get caught up in changing too much too often and never get grounded. You don't have that problem, so experiment away. But please keep us posted - some of us bangers might be able to benefit from your efforts!

-td

 

[JohnnyP]

Hu: Are you saying you want or need a longer follow through, or are you just trying to point out that follow through is limited with a (pure) pendulum stroke?

Patrick: Isn't it clear from my clip that the pendulum limits the follow through? Or am I doing a bunch of things wrong? Granted, I can't get much draw from eight feet away. What stroke does Corey use on those monster shots?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6912406045383460884

 

[ShootingArts]

That is the key

TD,

As a fellow auto racer you know the key is one change at a time and properly evaluating that change before you move on. You also know not to forget what was working best before the change. Basic lessons that I learned almost forty years ago and that have applied to every form of competition including pool. Too much change too fast keeps many a person from advancing.

I'll keep you posted of course although you are far from a banger. Learning from others that try something first saves smart folks a lot of time! I can at least tell you what worked for me or the issues I had. You have the judgment to know if what I say is valid for yourself and others.

I can't pick on lawyers too much, added two more to the family last year. I did hire a crooked lawyer years ago. Figured the only way to fight the crooks on the other side was with my own crook! As expected mine tried to crook everybody in sight, including me. A chuckle there I'll tell you about sometime.

I'm taking a roughly two week trip leaving early next week. I'll be passing through Dallas coming or going, maybe both. No idea of the timing yet or if I'll even be slowing down in Dallas but if we can get together it is my turn to buy a meal and maybe we can play a little. I'll PM you when things are a little closer and make sure we both have contact information. Traveling with my brother again and schedules are complicated.

PM me anytime this week, I'll probably be off the radar while traveling.

Hu

Are you making fun of us lawyers j/k

Hu, I have some thoughts on other areas of the pool world that I want to bounce off you. Maybe later this week, or early next week. I'm in the weeds at work now though, so I'll PM you when I get caught up. As for the stroke issue, I still think it's perfectly fine for you (or anyone) to experiment to find what works for them. The issue is some people get caught up in changing too much too often and never get grounded. You don't have that problem, so experiment away. But please keep us posted - some of us bangers might be able to benefit from your efforts!

-td

 

[JoeyInCali]

Hu: Are you saying you want or need a longer follow through, or are you just trying to point out that follow through is limited with a (pure) pendulum stroke?

Patrick: Isn't it clear from my clip that the pendulum limits the follow through? Or am I doing a bunch of things wrong? Granted, I can't get much draw from eight feet away. What stroke does Corey use on those monster shots?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6912406045383460884

The pendulum has no follow thru per se'.
It's just there.
Tip makes contact with the ball then dips.
Scott and I argued over this for a long time until I just quit dropping the elbow.
I can shoot a spot shot, draw the cueball to the side rail and not hit the end rail without dropping the elbow.
Wayne can draw table length easily by throwing the cue too.

I think the key to the pendulum is a real light hold/grip. On really soft shots, just let the cue slide..

 

[Scott Lee]

Not true Joey...the finish of the stroke is where your forearm closes up, without the elbow moving downwards. This produces a "natural" followthrough, that is specific in distance, to how long someone's arm is (it may be anywhere from less than an inch, to 8-9 inches, depending on the body style of the player). The key is the the cuetip finishes on or near the exact same spot on the table, on EVERY shot (this is possible at all speed shots, even the break). Since the contact with the CB is only 1/1000th of a second long, it doesn't matter how long or short your followthrough is. That's why a natural pendulum swing is so accurate and repeatable...it's a natural motion.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The pendulum has no follow thru per se'.
It's just there.
Tip makes contact with the ball then dips...

 

[ShootingArts]

Some of both actually

Johnny,

The pendulum is quite limiting in it's purest form and far more complex than many believe as generally executed. Looking only at the effect on the cue ball I don't need a longer follow through than the pendulum offers. In theory none of us need a longer stroke than Allen Hopkins uses so effectively. However for my personal comfort and feedback I need a longer follow through. I also want one simply because I feel much more comfortable with a relaxed stroke which leads to a longer follow through. The approach is actually a larger issue however. An area of complexity but to simplify I believe that we are better able to visualize where a straight line will contact the cue ball than where an arc will.

Sometimes we have more control of a motion than we have of trying to hold something completely stationary. The key to pistol competition is to understand the motion, not hold the pistol still which is impossible. You are a very smart guy that can think outside the box so perhaps these statements are food for thought and help you understand some of the basis for my testing of other stroke techniques.

Hu

Hu: Are you saying you want or need a longer follow through, or are you just trying to point out that follow through is limited with a (pure) pendulum stroke?

Patrick: Isn't it clear from my clip that the pendulum limits the follow through? Or am I doing a bunch of things wrong? Granted, I can't get much draw from eight feet away. What stroke does Corey use on those monster shots?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6912406045383460884

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Patrick: Isn't it clear from my clip that the pendulum limits the follow through?

Your followthrough looks fine to me, Johnny. You might be able to get more followthrough by dropping your elbow, and maybe it would help you feel like you're hitting harder, but it doesn't look like you need it to execute shots.

... I can't get much draw from eight feet away.

The key is where you hit the cue ball, not how far you follow through. Following through, like the pendulum stroke, is how to get that accuracy, but if you try to follow through too much you might break the pendulum stroke down and your tip/ball accuracy will suffer - then you're working against yourself.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hu:
I learned some people liked to argue just for the attention and were unwilling to think or solve anything for themselves. You definitely fall into that category.

And yet it's you who got all pissy. Go figure.

Don't feel bad about being unable to answer my question, though - I'm pretty sure I knew the answer all along. I'll be glad to explain it to you sometime when you're feeling more sociable.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyInCali]

The key is where you hit the cue ball, not how far you follow through.
The key is how you hit the ball imo.
IT looks to me he's flinching or tightening up his shoulder/upper arm.
Thereby slowing down the acceleration.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
The key is where you hit the cue ball, not how far you follow through.

JoeyInCali:
The key is how you hit the ball imo.
IT looks to me he's flinching or tightening up his shoulder/upper arm.
Thereby slowing down the acceleration.

By "how you hit the ball", I guess you mean he's not hitting it hard enough? That may be true, although tip/ball accuracy can make up for quite a bit of power. Ever notice how when you're hitting 'em good it seems to take a lot less power? But if he's tightening his upper arm as you say, I agree that's not advisable.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

the posts in this thread prove you wrong

And yet it's you who got all pissy. Go figure.
pj
chgo

pj,

The posts in this thread prove you wrong as to who "got all pissy".

I simply won't continue to try to explain 2000 years of scientific fact to someone on the internet. Especially someone who is doing their best not to accept any of it. You are truly too lacking in knowledge to discuss anything mechanical. Added to that your real interest is in arguing not learning. I'm not going to argue the validity of scientific fact I understood before I was out of grade school.

I gain knowledge from the posts of the rest of the people in this thread. Your posts would be merely a great gaping drainhole except they keep folks coming back to this thread for entertainment's sake. Everybody is good for something, you are good for comic relief.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

pj,

The posts in this thread prove you wrong as to who "got all pissy".

I simply won't continue to try to explain 2000 years of scientific fact to someone on the internet. Especially someone who is doing their best not to accept any of it. You are truly too lacking in knowledge to discuss anything mechanical. Added to that your real interest is in arguing not learning. I'm not going to argue the validity of scientific fact I understood before I was out of grade school.

I gain knowledge from the posts of the rest of the people in this thread. Your posts would be merely a great gaping drainhole except they keep folks coming back to this thread for entertainment's sake. Everybody is good for something, you are good for comic relief.

Hu

Well, Hu, much as I hate to contradict you, this post alone (which is representative of all your recent posts to me) shows that it's you who gets pissy at the drop of a hat.

I'll just leave it here for reference.

pj
chgo

 

[pooltchr]

I believe that we are better able to visualize where a straight line will contact the cue ball than where an arc will.

Hu

One critical aspect of the pendilum stroke is to start in the proper "Set" position. If the tip is very near the cue ball when your forearm is perpendicular to the cue, the simple pendilum motion will provide contact at the exact same spot where you set up. For most people, the set position is where they make the final decision that they are lined up properly, and the tip is going to contact the cue ball in the correct spot. Once your alignment and tip position are set, the pendilum simply swings back, then moves forward to the exact same position as the Set position. Contact is made, the forearm continues forward after tip/ball separation and comes to rest at the natural stopping position.
The beauty of the pendilum stroke is you don't need to visualize where you will contact the ball. You start from that point, and come right back through the same spot during your forward stroke. You can do it with your eyes closed.
Steve