The pendulum stroke must die!

[Scott Lee]

Great description Steve!...and to add to your last line...the tip finishes the exact same distance past the CB every time, giving the player a completely repeatable process, that can be evaluated immediately, at the end of each stroke, and corrections made if there are any 'mistakes'!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

One critical aspect of the pendilum stroke is to start in the proper "Set" position. If the tip is very near the cue ball when your forearm is perpendicular to the cue, the simple pendilum motion will provide contact at the exact same spot where you set up. For most people, the set position is where they make the final decision that they are lined up properly, and the tip is going to contact the cue ball in the correct spot. Once your alignment and tip position are set, the pendilum simply swings back, then moves forward to the exact same position as the Set position. Contact is made, the forearm continues forward after tip/ball separation and comes to rest at the natural stopping position.
The beauty of the pendilum stroke is you don't need to visualize where you will contact the ball. You start from that point, and come right back through the same spot during your forward stroke. You can do it with your eyes closed.
Steve

 

[ShootingArts]

Thanks Steve and Scott!

Steve,

Possibly because my stance is a little higher than most both due to my height and girth, my line of sight is a little higher than those with a chin even with the stick. I do have a bit of parallax for lack of a better word. My line of sight is considerably different than the line of the cue. I usually stay about a quarter to three-eighths inch off of the cue ball too, I occasionally touch it if I attempt to set closer than that. My vision isn't the sharpest at that range. As a result I do have to do a bit of mental gymnastics to know exactly where I am hitting the cue ball.

After your assistance and Scott's both on and off the forum, I am giving the pendulum another go during this time too. I won't be playing much and won't play with all three strokes when I do play but I do think I can groove all three of them in with some time spent off the pool table just working with test gear and with some simple set shots on the table. I'll report my thoughts on all three strokes when I am done and of course which one works best for me. If it is the pendulum I won't be in the least disappointed. I need a delivery that allows execution on the table for the full length of a session. Whatever it may be.

A very sincere thanks for your assistance as well as Scott's.

Hu

One critical aspect of the pendilum stroke is to start in the proper "Set" position. If the tip is very near the cue ball when your forearm is perpendicular to the cue, the simple pendilum motion will provide contact at the exact same spot where you set up. For most people, the set position is where they make the final decision that they are lined up properly, and the tip is going to contact the cue ball in the correct spot. Once your alignment and tip position are set, the pendilum simply swings back, then moves forward to the exact same position as the Set position. Contact is made, the forearm continues forward after tip/ball separation and comes to rest at the natural stopping position.
The beauty of the pendilum stroke is you don't need to visualize where you will contact the ball. You start from that point, and come right back through the same spot during your forward stroke. You can do it with your eyes closed.
Steve

 

[Scott Lee]

Hu...I also play mostly with a more upright stance. In this case, the 'finish' of the pendulum stroke results in the butt of the cue at a much higher elevation, at the end of the stroke, than most people are comfortable with.
The fact is that the CB is gone off of the tip so fast (1/1000th of a second), that it doesn't matter how much the butt of the cue elevates after contact. However, most people with that upright stance think it's weird for the stick to come up that far, and therefore artificially stop the forward momentum of the natural pendulum finish...or they drop their elbow, to artificially get 'more followthrough' (believing it actually does something significant to the outcome of the stroke).

Glad we can help explain how we teach, what we teach, and why we teach it that way! There really is NO secret knowledge, and any instructor worth his or her salt, ought to be happy to share that, with anyone who wants to know! No matter how much information I offer for free here on the net, it doesn't replace the one on one interaction possible between teacher and student on the table.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Klopek]

0000000000

 

[ShootingArts]

sooner than breeding elephants

Breeding elephants is accompanied by a great deal of noise too and takes two years to get results. I'm predicting four to eight weeks for me to feel I have given things a fair test. I am actually happy to include Scott and Steve's version of the pendulum in the testing. Whichever stroke works best will be the one for me. I wish it would be one of those beautiful slip strokes but if I want one of those I'll have to devote many months to it alone and still may not master it.

This is a very valuable thread for me. Putting together all of the productive replies and a few PM's, I have lots of new information and things to consider. I need to take time to combine it all into one document for reference. None of this renders my own thoughts invalid but it definitely adds more options and the more options the better, as long as I don't try make all the changes at once as TD pointed out.

For a pleasurable and productive thread this may be the best I have ever started. Great new and old video's, great input from almost everyone, smart guys, and not less than four BCA instructors. All who contributed to this thread are appreciated and it isn't done yet.

Hu

PS I'll remember the title, just in case!

Hu,

How long before we see the sequel thread:

"The Pendulum stroke must Live!"

 

[ShootingArts]

wish more people in general realized that

Glad we can help explain how we teach, what we teach, and why we teach it that way! There really is NO secret knowledge, and any instructor worth his or her salt, ought to be happy to share that, with anyone who wants to know! No matter how much information I offer for free here on the net, it doesn't replace the one on one interaction possible between teacher and student on the table.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

Great that you feel that way and in truth sharing knowledge is good advertising because even a half-day working together is likely to be worth more than thousands of words. I have spent weeks or months helping people through the written word only to make greater strides in a few minutes face to face. You can't see what somebody is actually doing over the net and as this thread proves so well, the same word often has different meanings and connotations to different people.

Hu

 

[Fixer]

I have to defend the PS just a little. I mostly shoot with a long stroke and some Elbow drop, but on some shots I really like using the PS - even a snooker stance for a real exact hit.

They can both do the job, but when I am freewheeling I seem to drop a lot. Could be a matter of my early days or what comes naturally for me, or both.

 

[pooltchr]

Hu,
Glad we could help. Given the chance to work, I honestly believe the Pendilum Stroke is the best possible way to get consistant, repeatable results.
Steve

 

[Snapshot9]

To further illustrate ... LOL

relate it to sex. When initiating the stroke, the pendulum stroke assures a striaght even stroke that arrives at the destination in good form, while free-wheeling, because of excitement level, a 'hully gully' stroke can yield something other than good results, even very painful results since it may land other than where it was intended......

We all know it is painful when we miss!!!

 

[ShootingArts]

dang! back to square one!

relate it to sex. When initiating the stroke, the pendulum stroke assures a striaght even stroke that arrives at the destination in good form, while free-wheeling, because of excitement level, a 'hully gully' stroke can yield something other than good results, even very painful results since it may land other than where it was intended......

We all know it is painful when we miss!!!

Dang it! Now I am back to square one. I related it to sex just like you said and I don't want anything to do with a pendulum!!!

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

so far, no joy

I have been busy getting ready for a road trip but so far no joy with the pendulum stroke.

I have a freshly designed stroke straightener and a junk stick to throw in the truck with me so I'll have about two weeks to work on the stroke every evening on the road. I'll be posting little or none until I get back home.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have been busy getting ready for a road trip but so far no joy with the pendulum stroke.

I have a freshly designed stroke straightener and a junk stick to throw in the truck with me so I'll have about two weeks to work on the stroke every evening on the road. I'll be posting little or none until I get back home.

Hu

I think our earlier disagreement was more about "chemistry" than the substance of this topic, and I'm afraid that what I said about this might have got lost in the sparring, so I want to bring it up again now that things have (hopefully) cooled a little.

If I understand your earlier comments, you think it's necessary to move the wrist (in a way I still don't understand, but no matter) in order to compensate for the grip interfering with the pendulum stroke, and this means to you that it might be less complicated to move the elbow. I've suggested that gripping with fewer fingers will permit the butt to pivot in your grip without interference. Have you tried a looser, more minimal grip? If not, give it a shot. It has paid multiple benefits to me.

Just a friendly suggestion.

pj
chgo

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

PJ I can vouch for the wrist action, i do this myself.....


SPINDOKOR

I think our earlier disagreement was more about "chemistry" than the substance of this topic, and I'm afraid that what I said about this might have got lost in the sparring, so I want to bring it up again now that things have (hopefully) cooled a little.

If I understand your earlier comments, you think it's necessary to move the wrist (in a way I still don't understand, but no matter) in order to compensate for the grip interfering with the pendulum stroke, and this means to you that it might be less complicated to move the elbow. I've suggested that gripping with fewer fingers will permit the butt to pivot in your grip without interference. Have you tried a looser, more minimal grip? If not, give it a shot. It has paid multiple benefits to me.

Just a friendly suggestion.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ I can vouch for the wrist action, i do this myself.....

Maybe you can tell me what kind of wrist action and what it corrects or prevents?

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

Maybe you can tell me what kind of wrist action and what it corrects or prevents?

pj
chgo

First of all....what a fun read this thread was. TY to whomever posted it in the Hendry/Trump thread. I can describe the wrist action.... but first, to settle this nearly 15y.o. question....HU got pissy first (the flame's gone out but thought I'd pour gasoline on it just in case).

Anyway, just like the loose grip with 1 or 2 fingers acting as a fulcrum in the grip hand allowing the cue to pivot without much wrist action will offset the cue angle relative to what a welded tight grip would do in the backswing (as PJ pointed out), the opening of the hand and cocking of the wrist (which happens on its own due to the intention of keeping the cue level-ish) will provide the same offset.

To illustrate, if you have your hand in a dead hang, the ring made by your index and thumb will be open forwards towards target. If you leave the arm alone and just cock the wrist, you see that the ring now is open upwards. It is this motion that nullifies much of the effect of the forarm swinging up and back which would point the cue downwards if strictly connected. With a loose connection and some play on the fingers, or a tighter connection and the natural cocking of the wrist in the backswing, we get the 'compensation' required for the cue wanting to point down due to the movement of the forearm. The 2 don't cancel exactly so there is some up/down in the butt of the cue, but the effect of this on tip position is further buffered out by the fulcrum near the tip (the bridge) which acts to stabilize the tip position by providing a pivot closer to contact.

re: swing length, the tighter grip with the wrist action that accommodates linear(ish) cuing can offset less so is necessarily a shorter stroke. The looser grip with the hand opening in backswing that allows for a bigger butt pivot on the fingers than the wrist can produce, can 'compensate' for more of an arm move and therefore allow for a longer swing.

In the end, neither the wrist action or the hand action of opening/closing the hand and allowing the cue to pivot on a finger or two of the grip are particularly hard to do nor do ppl even need to think about doing them. There's a good reason most coaches teach this technique and it isn't just that it is the easiest to teach...it is the easiest to perform. I just wish there was more discussion from coaches and players alike about the driver of this pendulum bc if your biceps are running the show, you are gonna have limited cue power and not so great speed control. They can be involved, just not the main driver....but we've already spent at least one thread on this recently so no need to rehash it here. Just saying...it is this locked down feel and isolating the biceps as the driver of the stroke that leads to that robotic feeling. When the entire arm is engaged we use the muscles we usually use to move the arm in concert with the muscles of the arm. If we all of a sudden try to initiate the force impulse with the biceps, it feels weak, forced, and robotic with little cue power and poor speed control.

my 2 cents. prove me wrong. But in the spirit of this thread, if you come at me, I'm 100% getting pissy and talking down to u

 

[straightline]

It's all system. Perfect mechanics will always fail at your custom swoop, 2 rail reverse kick billiard combination banks.
For the cash of course.
Now I gotta pee...

 

[garczar]

First of all....what a fun read this thread was. TY to whomever posted it in the Hendry/Trump thread. I can describe the wrist action.... but first, to settle this nearly 15y.o. question....HU got pissy first (the flame's gone out but thought I'd pour gasoline on it just in case).

Anyway, just like the loose grip with 1 or 2 fingers acting as a fulcrum in the grip hand allowing the cue to pivot without much wrist action will offset the cue angle relative to what a welded tight grip would do in the backswing (as PJ pointed out), the opening of the hand and cocking of the wrist (which happens on its own due to the intention of keeping the cue level-ish) will provide the same offset.

To illustrate, if you have your hand in a dead hang, the ring made by your index and thumb will be open forwards towards target. If you leave the arm alone and just cock the wrist, you see that the ring now is open upwards. It is this motion that nullifies much of the effect of the forarm swinging up and back which would point the cue downwards if strictly connected. With a loose connection and some play on the fingers, or a tighter connection and the natural cocking of the wrist in the backswing, we get the 'compensation' required for the cue wanting to point down due to the movement of the forearm. The 2 don't cancel exactly so there is some up/down in the butt of the cue, but the effect of this on tip position is further buffered out by the fulcrum near the tip (the bridge) which acts to stabilize the tip position by providing a pivot closer to contact.

re: swing length, the tighter grip with the wrist action that accommodates linear(ish) cuing can offset less so is necessarily a shorter stroke. The looser grip with the hand opening in backswing that allows for a bigger butt pivot on the fingers than the wrist can produce, can 'compensate' for more of an arm move and therefore allow for a longer swing.

In the end, neither the wrist action or the hand action of opening/closing the hand and allowing the cue to pivot on a finger or two of the grip are particularly hard to do nor do ppl even need to think about doing them. There's a good reason most coaches teach this technique and it isn't just that it is the easiest to teach...it is the easiest to perform. I just wish there was more discussion from coaches and players alike about the driver of this pendulum bc if your biceps are running the show, you are gonna have limited cue power and not so great speed control. They can be involved, just not the main driver....but we've already spent at least one thread on this recently so no need to rehash it here. Just saying...it is this locked down feel and isolating the biceps as the driver of the stroke that leads to that robotic feeling. When the entire arm is engaged we use the muscles we usually use to move the arm in concert with the muscles of the arm. If we all of a sudden try to initiate the force impulse with the biceps, it feels weak, forced, and robotic with little cue power and poor speed control.

my 2 cents. prove me wrong. But in the spirit of this thread, if you come at me, I'm 100% getting pissy and talking down to u

you're gonna need to ditch the novella-length posts. most folks on here just flip past anything so long. not knocking your train-of-thought just the delivery. short-n-sweet. we're just simple minded pool folk.

 

[WobblyStroke]

you're gonna need to ditch the novella-length posts. most folks on here just flip past anything so long. not knocking your train-of-thought just the delivery. short-n-sweet. we're just simple minded pool folk.

Nah ima write what i write till im done writing it. Besides, I responded to minimum 5 diff posts from this ancient thread up there.
I put it out there in full for those that may find smth in it. TLDR? Move on... maybe somebody else says same thing in a more digestible length for them.

 

[Biloxi Boy]

As long as he is comfortable knowing that most will disregard his post as dribble, and his message lost, let him knock himself out. I, on the other hand, feel that what I say is important enough to say correctly and succinctly, placing minimal burden upon those choosing to consider my communication. I believe it is simply a matter of courtesy.

 

[ShootingArts]

As long as he is comfortable knowing that most will disregard his post as dribble, and his message lost, let him knock himself out. I, on the other hand, feel that what I say is important enough to say correctly and succinctly, placing minimal burden upon those choosing to consider my communication. I believe it is simply a matter of courtesy.

You certainly have a point, short and sweet is more effective communication in some cases. I tend to write book length too though. Try writing procedures in a nuclear plant or giving written instructions to a crew when you won't be there! Both teach you to write in painful detail. The crew will all or almost all be sitting on their asses if they can find an excuse to stop. You leave half a day and find that you have lost several hundred manhours. Running hard money jobs or paying out of my pocket that is a big deal. Not only did they get the primary job spelled out in painful detail, they got five alternatives!

In the nuke, if a cover has to be removed and you say take out three philips head screws and there are two or four in the latest version of the cover the job is shut down until the procedure is revised, likewise if they now use a different head screw! Again, you learn to write in painful detail to try to cover all eventualities. A two minute job can turn into weeks, months, even years in some cases! I have seen it. The procedure says "remove metal cover" it is now plastic. Slam on the brakes. You describe the cover as gray plastic and it now uses a clear cover, you guessed it!

After decades of this type of writing short and sweet is rare from me. Those interested read, or at least skim. Those that aren't are welcome to pass on. I am long retired and don't have a penny hinging on readership!

Hu