The Perfect Pool Instructor?

[sjm]

Don...teaching is big business in golf .

It sure is, DM, yet the best teachers in golf aren't good enough competitively to play it for a living, and almost all of them never have been. By working on their teaching techniques and teaching materials, and by teaching frequently, these great teachers have become so much more effective at analyzing the skills of their students and conveying what they know than all the rest.

Who is likely to give a better lesson, David Leadbetter or Tiger Woods? The truth is that Tiger might possess slightly more knowledge of the game, but Leadbetter's combination of knowledge, experience (he might well give 2,000 lessons a year), and communication skills would leave Tiger in the dust.

Whether it's pool or golf, you need to have a certain "critical mass" of knowledge and expereince to teach, but after that, what makes the best the best is their superior ability to pass on their knowledge.

 

[drivermaker]

It sure is, DM, yet the best teachers in golf aren't good enough competitively to play it for a living, and almost all of them never have been. By working on their teaching techniques and teaching materials, and by teaching frequently, these great teachers have become so much more effective at analyzing the skills of their students and conveying what they know than all the rest.

Who is likely to give a better lesson, David Leadbetter or Tiger Woods? The truth is that Tiger might possess slightly more knowledge of the game, but Leadbetter's combination of knowledge, experience (he might well give 2,000 lessons a year), and communication skills would leave Tiger in the dust.

Whether it's pool or golf, you need to have a certain "critical mass" of knowledge and expereince to teach, but after that, what makes the best the best is their superior ability to pass on their knowledge.

Right on the mark, SJM. I'd like to add one more thing to what you said, and I think a great teacher in golf, pool, or any sport has a super eye to determine
what the real problem is that need's corrected. You can have a player that's been having difficulties, take 3 teachers out to watch his swing one at a time, and come away with 3 different diagnoses and cures, and one will definitely be better than the other 2 to get him back on track. There are many different areas that can be worked on in a golf swing or pool stroke and the advice is all good, but it's being able to home in immediately to the problem/cure that separates the best from the rest. Not everyone has that ability, especially an amateur that even has good playing skills and also a good playing pro.

As a side story to illustrate this, I've spent literally hundreds of hours on the driving range right along side Bob Toski as he's been giving lessons to either amateurs or tour players. As the player is hitting balls and the evaluation process is taking place, I would start forming my opinions and making note of different aspects of all his fundamentals and swing. It wasn't my lesson or place to speak up, and Toski would then start his explanation. There were a good number of times my assessment was on the mark, and then there were other times when Toski would start going off on an area that I hadn't even noticed or thought of. An example of this might be just the slightest amount of wrist movement at the top of the swing or in the transition that altered the club face alignment. Another might be as he came into the impact position when everything is moving quickly and the hands are a blur to begin with, to spot a slightly cupped position as opposed to supinating correctly. And I would think, how in THEE HELL did he spot that? I think that I'm a good teacher, but that's what makes him one of the greatest, plus he was a super player in his day having won multiple tournaments and being the leading money winner on tour, 1954, the year after Hogan's phenomenal year.

 

[CaptainJR]

It sure is, DM, yet the best teachers in golf aren't good enough competitively to play it for a living, and almost all of them never have been. By working on their teaching techniques and teaching materials, and by teaching frequently, these great teachers have become so much more effective at analyzing the skills of their students and conveying what they know than all the rest.

Who is likely to give a better lesson, David Leadbetter or Tiger Woods? The truth is that Tiger might possess slightly more knowledge of the game, but Leadbetter's combination of knowledge, experience (he might well give 2,000 lessons a year), and communication skills would leave Tiger in the dust.

Whether it's pool or golf, you need to have a certain "critical mass" of knowledge and expereince to teach, but after that, what makes the best the best is their superior ability to pass on their knowledge.

So, what makes a teacher like David Leadbetter so special?

As I mentioned in post #5 and #6 on this thread. Being able to recognize the problem and knowing what to do about it seems to be a talent of its own. In this thread knowledge and communication skills have been emphasized a lot. It's been said that knowledge alone will not get it and communication skills without knowledge certainly will not get it. I'm saying the is a third and critical ability that is more of a talent than a learned ability. 'Being able to recognize the problem.'

Example: CaptJR said many years ago. Your body position is indicating that your weight is on the ball of your right foot in that turn. You need to put your weight on the inside edge of the ball of your right foot. That will lean you just slightly to the left and will allow you to get to your next step on the beat instead of slightly behind the beat.

You see the issue at hand was 'being late on the left foot'. The problem was well before that and was the slight difference of having weight on the inside edge rather than the center of the ball of the right foot.

After your get past the basics you need a teacher that has a keen eye.

 

[sjm]

So, what makes a teacher like David Leadbetter so special? ... After your get past the basics you need a teacher that has a keen eye.

Captain and Drivermaker, and all others that have participated, your posts in this thread have really been interesting.

You guys really hit the nail on the head in making the point that a good teacher of either golf, pool, or dance must have a keen and trained eye to identify the problems their students face.

I agree that some have this really keen eye. Among those who don't have it, I believe that somebody who teaches very frequently is far more likely to develop that keen eye than somebody who focuses on playing.

 

[CaptainJR]

I'd like to add one more thing to what you said, and I think a great teacher in golf, pool, or any sport has a super eye to determine
what the real problem is that need's corrected.

drivermaker
From the posting times it looks like we were composing those last two posts at the same time.

Let me be the first to say - 'You owe me a coke!'

Good post

 

[drivermaker]

drivermaker
From the posting times it looks like we were composing those last two posts at the same time.

Let me be the first to say - 'You owe me a coke!'

Good post

Then why did mine show up first? I'll take a beer

 

[CaptainJR]

Then why did mine show up first? I'll take a beer

In the old tradition it was who ever said 'you owe me' first that was owed the drink after two people say the same thing at the same time.

I'll take a little Rum in my coke if you don't mind.

 

[drivermaker]

In the old tradition it was who ever said 'you owe me' first that was owed the drink after two people say the same thing at the same time.

I'll take a little Rum in my coke if you don't mind.

HUH?? In what country did that tradition start? Who cares...why don't I just buy all night until people start saying..."You know the story about the two drunks that were sitting at this bar, and one drunk says to the other.........."

 

[CaptainJR]

HUH?? In what country did that tradition start? Who cares...why don't I just buy all night until people start saying..."You know the story about the two drunks that were sitting at this bar, and one drunk says to the other.........."

Just having fun. The country is USA and it was a kids thing when I was young. When two people said the same thing at the same time, the first one to say "You owe me a coke" was owed a coke. (usually not paid)

You flunked the 'old fart' test. I win, I'm the old fart!

 

[drivermaker]

You flunked the 'old fart' test. I win, I'm the old fart!

PHEEEWWWW!!!

 

[chefjeff]

I was just going over some old threads...and this one is filled with some really good info on finding good instructors for whatever level a player is.

It also seemed kind of quaint, in a nice way, with some long ago posters some of us now miss around here.



Jeff Livingston

 

[336Robin]

If you're searching for the Perfect Pool Instructor, you should know what it is you're looking to improve on and find the instructor for that skill.
You should ask the instructor if he can instruct you in the area you want help in.

 

[Pangit]

I was just going over some old threads...and this one is filled with some really good info on finding good instructors for whatever level a player is.

It also seemed kind of quaint, in a nice way, with some long ago posters some of us now miss around here.



Jeff Livingston

 

[garczar]

Instructor also needs to realize what type of player he's dealing with. By that i mean are they more of an artist/feel player or a more rigid/technical player. A good golf analogy is how Harvey Penick taught both Crenshaw and Kite. One was all artist(Ben) and the other(TomK.) was all numbers and technical. Harvey NEVER let one see the other getting a lesson due the the drastic differences in Penicks approach to each player. Pool is no different in this regard. A really good teacher can deal with these different style players.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I was just going over some old threads...and this one is filled with some really good info on finding good instructors for whatever level a player is.

It also seemed kind of quaint, in a nice way, with some long ago posters some of us now miss around here.

Jeff Livingston

There were also some very, very nasty people in the thread. Or are those the ones you mean? Notice how many are now banned. One of them, Gremlin, also had all of his posts erased.

 

[Bob Jewett]

(Shaw quote about doing or teaching.)

I like to think some can do both.

Are you saying that top players are lousy instructors? That's one implication of that quote.

 

[Scott Lee]

Pangitand those that can't do either merely repost this dribble, and spend the majority of their time posting anonymously on internet forums.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[chefjeff]

There were also some very, very nasty people in the thread. Or are those the ones you mean? Notice how many are now banned. One of them, Gremlin, also had all of his posts erased.

Yeah, I noticed that these older trolling threads still hold a quaint feel to them in spite of some of the trollers other antics during those times.

I wouldn't call them nasty, just a little too much ego shining through. Remember, it was still early in the net forum posting days, so can't we give them all just a little wiggle room?



Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Pangitand those that can't do either merely repost this dribble, and spend the majority of their time posting anonymously on internet forums.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I have pangit on ignore, so I didn't see his post.

Thanks for handling it well. I suggest the ignore function for some of the more "persistent" posters around here.



Jeff LIvingston

 

[chefjeff]

I used some of this info back then to pick instructors.

Scott Lee, for example, really helped me to integrate some details that I didn't know about into my shot.

The pros who taught me their stuff were just fine and dandy, but those guys had their own agendas and keep more to it than to mine. I knew going in that they'd probably do it that way, but still I paid and got what I paid for and I still use much of that info today. I think it is a student's responsibility to figure out how to learn from pros, not a pro's job to teach me in a certain way. Most learning from the pros comes from simply watching them do their thing. A teacher like Scott Lee, for example, can provide the info necessary to know what you're watching and what it means, when watching the pros play. This is necessary to get the most bank for your buck when watching, imho.

The teachers who are not pro players were better than the pros for MY game, though. It's because they're very good at teaching Knowledge and exceptionally good at relating to a student's particular needs. That's why they get paid and that's why students' games improve.


Jeff Livingston