The REAL problem with pool

[one stroke]

I did a google search for "bowling participation statistics"...and...and there's some really interesting stuff...just check this search hit out (below) for starters...(and there are *many* more interesting ones there too)...maybe there is something that can be learned concerning pool, from what has and is happening in bowling....

http://www.whitehutchinson.com/leisure/articles/whats-happening-to-bowling.shtml

On the above website is something for Billiards too...but it's pretty short....

Of course "billiard participation statistics" brings up a lot of stuff too...maybe it's worthwhile to read over some of that existing stuff more too....

Like I said before Bowling is the model that best suits pool may not be what pro pool players what to hear because they over estimate the value of their talents thinking they should make golfers money , carpenters don't make what electricians do Pay goes according to degree of skill


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[Red Shoes]

One more thing (which was probably mentioned here already)....It takes "YEARS" to get proficient at pool and MORE YEARS to get to some type of "champion level". For most of the young people...it is just TOO HARD. Just like "martial arts"...you can take years studying, training, testing and competing OR you can buy a "Ninja Video game" and feel you are "Bruce Lee" in 3 weeks. Most people (young people especially) are TOO LAZY to put the effort into it. We live in a society that wants INSTANT REWARDS (without or with minimum effort). Nobody wants to "WORK" for anything anymore (very SAD).

 

[BasementDweller]

One more thing (which was probably mentioned here already)....It takes "YEARS" to get proficient at pool and MORE YEARS to get to some type of "champion level". For most of the young people...it is just TOO HARD. Just like "martial arts"...you can take years studying, training, testing and competing OR you can buy a "Ninja Video game" and feel you are "Bruce Lee" in 3 weeks. Most people (young people especially) are TOO LAZY to put the effort into it. We live in a society that wants INSTANT REWARDS (without or with minimum effort). Nobody wants to "WORK" for anything anymore (very SAD).

I said pretty much the same thing before, but I don't really buy this anymore.

There are all knids of kids playing baseball, soccer, football, basketball, golf, etc. If you look at just baseball for instance, it's a pretty hard game. It takes several years to get decent at it. But if you live in a community that supports the game, the kids flock to it. Sure they can hardly throw the ball at first but it doesn't take too long before they get hooked on it.

I don't think pool is all that different. The problem is it's hard for kids to compete at it. There's just not much suport for them. So what you end up with is the few odd great young players here and there that have been taught by their parents at home. That's about it.

I think I could work with a kid for a few days and have them ready to compete against their friends in kid friendly game of pool (i.e. not 8-ball or 9-ball).

 

[336Robin]

I think the one problem with pool and a big one is no members. In order for bigger tournaments to survive need to have members paying dues. Even bad golf players pay memberships knowing they cant play in a pro tournament but they want to be part of keeping up a good golf course. I see documentaries on television costco, sams club, and NRA just to name a few. Before they sell anything they are taking in millions each month off members. I believe the first organization that can get 128 paid members to play in huge monthly tournaments will pull pool out of the mud. I love pool more than anyone just dont like the road it is going down.

Denzy,
You make a good point my friend. We as players are going to have to function as the sponsors of this sport. If we don't want to do it then who is? All that being said times are tough. If this were the case the only way I see it happening is for the pool league systems to take up the dues then remit them over to the governing body and their should be a membership card and some benefits for doing so. It wouldn't have to be much but it would need to be consistent across pool leagues only we have an issue.....Who is that body going to be? and what are they going to actually do in order to stimulate the consciousness of pool in normal everyday Americans?

 

[one stroke]

I said pretty much the same thing before, but I don't really buy this anymore.

There are all knids of kids playing baseball, soccer, football, basketball, golf, etc. If you look at just baseball for instance, it's a pretty hard game. It takes several years to get decent at it. But if you live in a community that supports the game, the kids flock to it. Sure they can hardly throw the ball at first but it doesn't take too long before they get hooked on it.

I don't think pool is all that different. The problem is it's hard for kids to compete at it. There's just not much suport for them. So what you end up with is the few odd great young players here and there that have been taught by their parents at home. That's about it.

I think I could work with a kid for a few days and have them ready to compete against their friends in kid friendly game of pool (i.e. not 8-ball or 9-ball).

Seriously ,,, I hardly think so ,kids pick up pool very fast far less time that it takes other sports

However golfers get it

U.S. Open Drew Nearly 230,000 To Congressional
Economic impact to county is estimated between $130-$150 million


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[336Robin]

Seriously ,,, I hardly think so ,kids pick up pool very fast far less time that it takes other sports


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One Stroke,
The young with great depth perception do pick up pool pretty quick. Even with that taken care of we still have the problem with where rooms are at now. Most are alcohol establishments which makes it hard to effect the grassroots of the problem. Open a room get it cheap as possible, try to tie in the billiard club aspect, let seniors run it, serve canned coke and crackers. Open it up to educational aspects. Its not the fast answer we all want but its the ground floor of the problem.

 

[Paul Schofield]

There is a phenomenon that takes place in our towns and neighborhoods all over the United States. It is called "Population aging in place". Young couples and families purchase and rent new homes in newly developed areas. Schools pop up to accommodate the new influx of families. Stores, services, youth, and family activities are initiated that appeal to the new population.

Then something begins to happen. The children grow up and move away. Parents grow old. Student bodies shrink until the schools close. There is no more little league and other activities because there are no more children. The neighborhood becomes populated with elderly retires. They leave only at their demise or when they cannot take care of themselves. Young couples and families will not move into these neighborhoods because there are no schools, services, activities, or neighbors that want what they want.

I think there are some remarkable parallels here. The pool community is a "Population aging in place" There are no places for youth (10-30) to frequent. Most all of our poolrooms have closed and what remains is no place that our youth want to be. The young don't want to move into our neighborhood. Our neighborhood has nothing for them.

I don't have an answer here but I will say this: Jerry is right. No poolrooms, no pool. All these lofty ideas in this thread, where are you going to execute them at?

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Look around your local pool room and tell me what you see. You'll see old guys. Guys that are in they're early forties to those in their late hundreds.
Ask any of them when they began playing pool and they'll just about all say when they were in their teens. Look around again and you'll probably not see a teenager in the joint.
I don't give one big crap about pool at the professional level. Let the pros worry about their own state of affairs. But, if the kids don't start coming into the pool halls around the country, then who's going to fill our shoes? (With deference to Mr. Jones.)

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool interview on new york tv concerning camel, pool, and more

Bowling alleys serve alcohol. That hasn't happened in bowling.

Liquor/Beer companies use major sports to advertise to "children" on a MUCH bigger scale than pool could possible reach.....that's why they have to stop Joe Camel, he was the second most popular cartoon behind Mickey Mouse....and he pushed cigarettes......brutal

See what Earl Strickland and I say about this in NEW YORK CITY....this is before a private exebition at the YALE CLUB in front of the "who's who" in the city.

POOL INTERVIEW ON NEW YORK TV CONCERNING CAMEL, POOL, AND MORE <<<<----click link

 

[CreeDo]

I barely fall in the 17-35 crowd but to me most pool halls feel un-hip. Like some older guy
bought a bar or an already-shuttered pool hall, spent the bare minimum to reopen,
and is hoping he sells enough beer to keep it alive. They're often part of a strip mall or in an old warehouse.
The carpet is old and dirty, the lighting sucks, everything's old wood with no color.

So many pool halls feel poor. You'd be out of place in a clean button down shirt + jacket.

Nobody with Big Dreams™ is opening some exquisite modern masterpiece from the ground up
with the mentality that this will be the most upscale joint anyone's ever seen.
I guess nobody thinks that gamble will ever pan out.

A few people have posted places around the world that go all-out in making a hip, clubby place.
Some of them seem so vibrant and attractive that I know I'd enjoy my time there even if the equipment
was less than ideal. I may not need to even hit a ball to enjoy some of these joints.

Upscale place in Linz, Austria:
http://www.poolhall.at/cms/index.php/360grad

Slate, NY:
http://cdn.vfolder.net/files/y5WTfX6cdc3/sfrances0908090084a.jpg

The Parlor, Seattle:
http://parlorlive.com/billiards/image/Parlor-front-room.jpg

It's encouraging to see some guys are thinking big out there, this is a rendering
of a proposed pool hall in an old Philly bank:
http://1200bank.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/1200-chestnut_hres_3-23-101.jpg
They said they want to model this after Amsterdam Billiards.
This article is worth checking for the 2nd picture at least:
http://nakedphilly.com/market-east/who-needs-a-bank-when-we-could-be-losing-money-at-a-pool-hall/

I have no idea if that's the main problem in pool, but it's definitely one problem.
I guess outside of big cities you can't expect someone to spend a few million bucks on a pool room.
But we can do better than hard times and sharky's. Most places aren't even trying.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I barely fall in the 17-35 crowd but to me most pool halls feel un-hip. Like some older guy.

Well, which is it, Creedo, my old/young friend? Seventeen, or thirty-five. :smile:

 

[one stroke]

Yes. We all know how incredibly skillful golfers are, don't we?

Obviously not everybody does , As Clint would say . A man needs to know his limitations


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[JoeyA]

Joey,

The only thing that is 'cool' to a 20 year old that is 'cool' to a 55+ year old is an attractive woman.:wink:

That is, besides the actual game of pocket billiards.

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick

Rick, you're not 20 years old. Just sayin.....

 

[JoeyA]

I barely fall in the 17-35 crowd but to me most pool halls feel un-hip. Like some older guy
bought a bar or an already-shuttered pool hall, spent the bare minimum to reopen,
and is hoping he sells enough beer to keep it alive. They're often part of a strip mall or in an old warehouse.
The carpet is old and dirty, the lighting sucks, everything's old wood with no color.

So many pool halls feel poor. You'd be out of place in a clean button down shirt + jacket.

Nobody with Big Dreams™ is opening some exquisite modern masterpiece from the ground up
with the mentality that this will be the most upscale joint anyone's ever seen.
I guess nobody thinks that gamble will ever pan out.

A few people have posted places around the world that go all-out in making a hip, clubby place.
Some of them seem so vibrant and attractive that I know I'd enjoy my time there even if the equipment
was less than ideal. I may not need to even hit a ball to enjoy some of these joints.

Upscale place in Linz, Austria:
http://www.poolhall.at/cms/index.php/360grad

Slate, NY:
http://cdn.vfolder.net/files/y5WTfX6cdc3/sfrances0908090084a.jpg

The Parlor, Seattle:
http://parlorlive.com/billiards/image/Parlor-front-room.jpg

It's encouraging to see some guys are thinking big out there, this is a rendering
of a proposed pool hall in an old Philly bank:
http://1200bank.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/1200-chestnut_hres_3-23-101.jpg
They said they want to model this after Amsterdam Billiards.
This article is worth checking for the 2nd picture at least:
http://nakedphilly.com/market-east/who-needs-a-bank-when-we-could-be-losing-money-at-a-pool-hall/

I have no idea if that's the main problem in pool, but it's definitely one problem.
I guess outside of big cities you can't expect someone to spend a few million bucks on a pool room.
But we can do better than hard times and sharky's. Most places aren't even trying.

Fargo Billiards and Gastropub is upscale and a modern masterpiece, cool, and does a LOT of business.

JoeyA

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, you're not 20 years old. Just sayin.....

Joey,

I did not mean to come off as being critical. I read the same thing that you did.

All I meant was that if you make it 'cool' for a young crowd you might drive off the 'older' crowd. There needs to be some form of common ground....like a few attractive women as CJ suggested.

If you make it attractive to women (of all ages) the men (of all ages) will follow.

Regards & All the Best Y'a,
Rick

 

[cueandcushion]

Thank you Jerry for starting this discussion

One of the better threads on this subject. From the other side I see every problem mentioned in this thread. So happy this thread has not turned into " (insert single issue) is Killing Pool" direction. Pool rooms survive from area to area on different incomes, from alcohol to retail to restaurant income. Each room has unique demographics and problems. Pool as a whole doesn't always have the same problems as individual rooms do. Discussing ALL of the issues facing our sport is the best first step to start rectifying those issues one by one.

 

[(((Satori)))]

I know some of the posters in this thread and how shall I say this? Ahh, they have lots of experience having been around pool for quite some time and have a lot of wisdom earned over those years.

I really would like to hear from the 17-35 year old crowd and ask them their opinions and would hope that those that are in that particular age bracket state that.

What does the 17-35 year old crowd think is the problem with pool?

I've heard an interesting comment from Jive about how some of the pool rooms aren't "cool" and I think he is probably more right than some of us. And that makes me wonder how does a pool room owner make his pool room more cool?

Thanks,
JoeyA

I'll give you my opinion based on what I have seen.

The Staff you hire is a very important factor when it comes to the cool factor. They have to be sociable, they have to be fun people. Having a fun staff sets the tone for the whole place. people follow their lead, it is contagous. The mood creates an environment that people feel good about coming to even if they are not in the mood for pool. The fun staff has a way of making the regulars feel like they have a second home that they can get away too and the new customers feel like they have found a place where they can fit in.

A clean environment along with a fun staff goes a long way IMO.

 

[CJ Wiley]

real TV, not the "TV Lite," or "Diet TV,

Just some random observations I've made from playing in rooms all over the U.S. and Europe...

1. Location. Too many rooms are in rough areas...city zoning laws and lease prices have often kept "pool rooms" in high crime areas; the way around it is to set the place up as a "sports bar" or restaraunt, if you can get away with it. Some people go the private club route, but that's hit/miss. Set up a pool room in an area that guys would be comfortable taking their wives/girlfriends to...or places that the average clutch of 20 something girls would go to for a girls' night out. No women, and pretty soon just us old fat men are the only ones in the place.

2. Maintenance. Even casual players want to play on good equipment. Too many room owners get tired and slack off on this, either through a little burn out or to save money. Not good. That includes the most overlooked thing, the house cues. You want to cater to the beginner/casual player, that's where the growth/money is. All the guys playing with their own cues can't keep the mortgage paid or the lights on. That's also why most successful rooms are bars/restaraunts first and pool rooms second. Crappy house cues make for a crappy playing experience.

3. Leagues. I think they're critical to success in most places. It gets casual players in one or two nights per week, every week, and keeps the till running with drinks, food, etc. I've never seen a room fail that had leagues...sure some have failed, but I've not seen it.

4. Incentives. Tournaments, challenge tables, drink/food specials and monthly rates/club memberships are all great to amp things up. I don't think smoking bans or alcohol has hurt anything, as far as I can see. Still the same group around the smoking barrel that there were smoking at the tables. Still showing up to play. My underage (at the time) son was allowed to come in and play with me in virtually any room I played in, even though alcohol was served...depended on the state and local ordinances, but usually before happy hour there was never a problem. I like rec centers coming back as an idea, but they cost money, too and they've died for reasons other than just pool.

5. Public perception. We've got to get pool on TV again. Get the public excited about it, introducing the players/personalities, etc. I can't believe all the hillbilly shows on A/E and History Channel, yet no one thinks pool will work? It's a no brainer. Reality show and Social Media.

Yes, we need real TV, not the "TV Lite," or "Diet TV," or whatever we have been reduced to. :shrug:

 

[pro9dg]

Yes, we need real TV, not the "TV Lite," or "Diet TV," or whatever we have been reduced to. :shrug:

C J you are spot on and I like your alternative descriptions. Streaming and various other forms of match videos are keeping pool down in the doldrums.
No other major sport has become so dependent on this low grade way of showcasing itself.
It is amazing that you are the only one that has managed to recognise this and that we need production quality to enhance this game.
I have turned many opportunities to use this form of presentation which I call Redneck TV.

How do you recognise a redneck - He is the one staring at a box of orange juice just because it says CONCENTRATE

 

[West Point 1987]

I'll give you my opinion based on what I have seen.

The Staff you hire is a very important factor when it comes to the cool factor. They have to be sociable, they have to be fun people. Having a fun staff sets the tone for the whole place. people follow their lead, it is contagous. The mood creates an environment that people feel good about coming to even if they are not in the mood for pool. The fun staff has a way of making the regulars feel like they have a second home that they can get away too and the new customers feel like they have found a place where they can fit in.

A clean environment along with a fun staff goes a long way IMO.

VERY good observation. It's amazing what an enthusiastic staff (servers/managers) can do for a pool room. Sometimes it seems like I'm imposing on the staff when I come in to play in some places, like they have something else they'd rather be doing and I'm in their way...other times, bubbly, socialable, enthusiastic staff that seem very glad to see me make all the difference in my playing experience--and I always go back.