the shot i asked about...

[Patrick Johnson]

JimS:
Cheating the pocket would mean hitting the ob with less than a 1/2 ball hit meaning that most of the energy of the shot was obsorbed by the ob and the cb wouldn't roll as far as the ob. Right? Hitting above center on the cb won't make any difference as the speed of the shot means no follow would be applied.

For a spot shot, 1/2 ball aim only makes from within a few inches of the head spot. Shooting from near the rail takes a significantly fuller aim.

Also, it's a 45-degree cut that makes both balls travel equal distances after contact. That's closer to a 1/4 ball aim and much too thin for this shot. Since the OB is farther from the corner pocket than from the foot rail, you need the OB to travel farther than the CB, so you need a fuller hit than 45 degrees - in fact, you need a fuller hit than 1/2 ball aim.

You're right about the rest.

pj
chgo

 

[JimS]

I mis-spoke. I meant using a fuller than half ball hit.

 

[jay helfert]

Doesn't matter how you hit. At pocket speed (for the object ball), all english (top, bottom, left, right, etc) is either long gone or completely useless by the time the cue ball gets to the object ball. The cue ball will simply have natural roll.

All you need is to hit the object ball at pocket speed and cheat it to the bottom as best you can. That is, undercut it just a hair. Don't shoot center pocket, or overcut it. I shoot from 1 chalk off the rail, and aim on the center line of the cue ball. This is just a hair of top from this close to the rail.

Pretty easy shot really. As requested, here is my video of this shot. 5 in a row, missed the last one. But you get the idea. You can easily make this 10 in a row. Just hit it soft...

BTW, my table is has simonis 860 on it, and the balls are Belgian aramith pro (not that it matters for this shot)

-td

Pretty strong sh-t there. I've never seen five in a row! I want you shooting for me. Okay? Funny how the six ball is the stopper. That's the hardest ball to see on the table. We used to always stick that up there for a spot shot, or use it as the head ball in One Pocket. It's a little "move" but don't tell anyone.

Someday I'll tell you about watching Little David run out, but skip the six ball.
It was hidden against the rail.

 

[mosconiac]

I had an opponent try to skip the 6 ball because it was hidden in the jaws of a pocket. He was red faced when I stopped him from fouling.

It wouldn't be fair if I didn't mention the time I did the same with a 2 ball...made the 1 and bent over to shoot at the 3...opponent said "what about the 2?" I figure karma worked its way in there somewhere.

 

[klockdoc]

Also, it's a 45-degree cut that makes both balls travel equal distances after contact. That's closer to a 1/4 ball aim and much too thin for this shot. Since the OB is farther from the corner pocket than from the foot rail, you need the OB to travel farther than the CB, so you need a fuller hit than 45 degrees - in fact, you need a fuller hit than 1/2 ball aim.

pj
chgo

Sorry to disagree with you there Patrick, but, I believe that a half ball aim (traditionally classified a "half ball hit") is the hit that makes both the object ball and the cue ball travel the same difference. Hitting a ball at a 1/4 hit would allow the cue ball to leave at a greater speed than one hit equal amount.

Least, that's what always worked for me..

 

[td873]

You wooten be messin' wid us, huh man?

My table does not lean towards the kitchen (or anywhere else for that matter). It's in great condition, as can be seen in my other youtube shots. It plays awesome!

Just shooting this shot "slow" with rolling top spin won't get the job done on any level table I have ever seen.

It does indeed work. All it takes a good eye, and good speed control. Many others have done it. Give it a try, you can do it too! If you consistently hit the end rail, just aim at the object ball a little fuller. BTW, it's not rolling top spin. It's natural roll. If the cue ball has top spin, you hit it too hard.

Thomas, I don't know how you made 5 in a row but if you ever see me at a pool tournament, I will pay to see you make it 3 in a row. Your table at the time of the shot, wouldn't have a lean toward the kitchen would it?

I just wanted to point out that your logic is a bit flawed. If there was a "kitchen" lean, I would have to hit the cue ball harder to pocket the object ball if the table "leaned" to the kitchen. Thus both balls would need to be travelling faster. For the cue ball, it would need to be struck harder (since it would be slowing down from the time I first contacted it until it hit the object ball) - but as you can see [and hear] from the video, I barely hit the cue ball and it rolls as you would expect it to on any 860 table. Also, as you can clearly see in shot 3, the cue ball stops a good 6 inches from the rail - but you can see the object ball still rolling to the hole - and rolling true. I.e., if there was a kitchen lean, any object ball roll off would be highly visible at that slow speed.

The truth is, I saw the original post, got out my camera, got 4 "takes" before I made 5 in a row, and then quit. All in about 10 minutes (the first take I missed the 1 ball. Then I misssed on 3, then I hit the rail with the 2, then got 5 in a row). Maybe I fluked in 5. Maybe not [I've also got a video of my super draw stroke and a cool safety. Those shots also show how my table plays, just so you know...]

-td

 

[td873]

We used to always stick that up there for a spot shot, or use it as the head ball in One Pocket. It's a little "move" but don't tell anyone.

It's like sticking the 6 and 8 together on the head of the triangle (1-h). Of course, on my break I ask to switch out

-td

 

[JoeyA]

The odor coming from your post is awful.

My table does not lean towards the kitchen (or anywhere else for that matter). It's in great condition, as can be seen in my other youtube shots. It plays awesome!


It does indeed work. All it takes a good eye, and good speed control. Many others have done it. Give it a try, you can do it too! If you consistently hit the end rail, just aim at the object ball a little fuller. BTW, it's not rolling top spin. It's natural roll. If the cue ball has top spin, you hit it too hard.


I just wanted to point out that your logic is a bit flawed. If there was a "kitchen" lean, I would have to hit the cue ball harder to pocket the object ball if the table "leaned" to the kitchen. Thus both balls would need to be travelling faster. For the cue ball, it would need to be struck harder (since it would be slowing down from the time I first contacted it until it hit the object ball) - but as you can see [and hear] from the video, I barely hit the cue ball and it rolls as you would expect it to on any 860 table. Also, as you can clearly see in shot 3, the cue ball stops a good 6 inches from the rail - but you can see the object ball still rolling to the hole - and rolling true. I.e., if there was a kitchen lean, any object ball roll off would be highly visible at that slow speed.

The truth is, I saw the original post, got out my camera, got 4 "takes" before I made 5 in a row, and then quit. All in about 10 minutes (the first take I missed the 1 ball. Then I misssed on 3, then I hit the rail with the 2, then got 5 in a row). Maybe I fluked in 5. Maybe not [I've also got a video of my super draw stroke and a cool safety. Those shots also show how my table plays, just so you know...]

-td

Thomas, come on by the AZ Room at DCC and I will give you 10 minutes to make 3 in a row using their standard equipment using "natural roll".
JoeyA

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Sorry to disagree with you there Patrick, but, I believe that a half ball aim (traditionally classified a "half ball hit") is the hit that makes both the object ball and the cue ball travel the same difference. Hitting a ball at a 1/4 hit would allow the cue ball to leave at a greater speed than one hit equal amount.

Sorry to disagree back, but hitting a ball with 1/2 ball aim doesn't "hit equal amount" - it produces a 30-degree cut angle for the OB and a 60-degree initial angle for the CB. The aim that produces 45-degree angles for both balls is approximately 1/4 ball. Don't confuse the *apparent* equal overlap with equal cut angles.

pj
chgo

 

[klockdoc]

Half-ball aims

Sorry to disagree back, but hitting a ball with 1/2 ball aim doesn't "hit equal amount" - it produces a 30-degree cut angle for the OB and a 60-degree initial angle for the CB. The aim that produces 45-degree angles for both balls is approximately 1/4 ball. Don't confuse the *apparent* equal overlap with equal cut angles.

pj
chgo

Doesn't matter the angles that the balls create, what matters is how much of the ball hits each other to reduce the friction between the balls. It has already been discussed. I would suggest testing it. Here is one link. I am sure there are others. Maybe Bob Jewett can explain in your physics language. Me, I just base it with facts that others have researched and my use in play...

Read Canes post. All are SPF BCA Certified Instructors

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccbo...d=allposts&Main=211019&Search=true#Post211046

 

[Fatboy]

Doesn't matter how you hit. At pocket speed (for the object ball), all english (top, bottom, left, right, etc) is either long gone or completely useless by the time the cue ball gets to the object ball. The cue ball will simply have natural roll.

All you need is to hit the object ball at pocket speed and cheat it to the bottom as best you can. That is, undercut it just a hair. Don't shoot center pocket, or overcut it. I shoot from 1 chalk off the rail, and aim on the center line of the cue ball. This is just a hair of top from this close to the rail.

Pretty easy shot really. As requested, here is my video of this shot. 5 in a row, missed the last one. But you get the idea. You can easily make this 10 in a row. Just hit it soft...

BTW, my table is has simonis 860 on it, and the balls are Belgian aramith pro (not that it matters for this shot)

-td

thanks, i ave been playing with it on real tight pockets-perhaps thats the problem, i'm gona find a table with bigger pockets, thanks again,i just want 2 in a row. 5 is great

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Doesn't matter the angles that the balls create, what matters is how much of the ball hits each other to reduce the friction between the balls. It has already been discussed. I would suggest testing it. Here is one link. I am sure there are others. Maybe Bob Jewett can explain in your physics language. Me, I just base it with facts that others have researched and my use in play...

Read Canes post. All are SPF BCA Certified Instructors

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccbo...d=allposts&Main=211019&Search=true#Post211046

Well, it turns out we're both right. The answer is a 45-degree cut (~1/4 ball aim) with stun or a 30-degree cut (1/2 ball aim) with a rolling cue ball. Here's how Ron Shepard described it in an RSB thread from August, 2006:

"The kinetic energy of the cue ball is split
evenly between the cue ball and the object ball when the cut angle
of the object ball is the same as the (final) deflection angle of
the cue ball. Most pool players discover for themselves by trial
and error that this is true for stun shots (45 degree cut angle) and
for natural roll topspin shots (30 degree cut angle), but I don't
think many go on to figure out the general relation. This is a very
useful relation to know for playing cue ball position, playing
safeties, and playing two-way shots. The details are given in
Problem 4.24 in APAPP."

So it is the angles that the balls create that's important - but it's their final angle that matters, after the cue ball reaches natural roll.

pj
chgo

 

[klockdoc]

Well, it turns out we're both right. The answer is a 45-degree cut (~1/4 ball aim) with stun or a 30-degree cut (1/2 ball aim) with a rolling cue ball. Here's how Ron Shepard described it in an RSB thread from August, 2006:

So it is the angles that the balls create that's important - but it's their final angle that matters, after the cue ball reaches natural roll.

pj
chgo

Great to hear. I just know that I apply it in a half-ball aim when I use it. I am generally using it to create a safe on my opponent. Not generally hitting the object ball hard, just using the natural roll of the cue, then all I have to do is control the speed.

Thanks for the information...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Thanks for the information...

Sure. I like it when everybody's right.

By the way, this means that you can control the speed of both balls (to be equal) with any cut angle between 1/4 ball aim and 1/2 ball aim, just by using the right amount of top or bottom to send the cue ball off at the same angle as the object ball. That's powerful stuff!

pj
chgo

 

[td873]

Thomas, come on by the AZ Room at DCC and I will give you 10 minutes to make 3 in a row using their standard equipment using "natural roll".
JoeyA

Have you tried this shot? You can shoot it. You don't need a particular person to shoot it. It's not a "trick shot," it's not a super stroke shot. It's just a normal hit the ball at pocket speed shot. But if I am there, I'll do it for you.

But, since you keep calling me out on this, I can only assume you can't execute it. Well, whether you accept it or not, it is what it is. If you need more proof, well, I'm not sure what I can do to satisfy you. I don't video tape shots to get a pat on the back. Rather, the shots I tape are to show the pool isn't a mystery or things that need pros talent. Most shots can be executed by normal folks. Pros can just do it consistently.

-td <- I still suggest you try shooting this shot rather than continue to insinuate I'm lying or cheating or misleading. It's actually getting kinda old. I stand by the video.

 

[td873]

thanks, i ave been playing with it on real tight pockets-perhaps thats the problem, i'm gona find a table with bigger pockets, thanks again,i just want 2 in a row. 5 is great

My pockets are 4.5" exactly. So it is possible on a normal double shimmed table. Not sure about triple since you have less "cheat."

-td

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

spot shot challenge

One of the best players in my area challenged me to this shot when
I had just started playing, it seemed simple enough at the time.

I made the first shot and came up about 6 inches short of the foot
rail.

The challenge was to make it without hitting the rail, this then turned
into making it twice...

Is it ok that I quit winner?

-cOOp

 

[td873]

One of the best players in my area challenged me to this shot when
I had just started playing, it seemed simple enough at the time.

I made the first shot and came up about 6 inches short of the foot
rail.

The challenge was to make it without hitting the rail, this then turned
into making it twice...

Is it ok that I quit winner?

-cOOp

Coop - better watch out! Joey is going to ask you for video footage that is notarized and sworn to by a priest, rabbi, and a pastor. And that you then repeat it in the presence of a jury, and you only get one try, since you did it on your first try. I'd edit your post ASAP (j/k Joey)

Seriously though, Coop is just more proof that this is not as hard as it first seems. Lots of folks have done it...

-td

 

[JoeyA]

Coop - better watch out! Joey is going to ask you for video footage that is notarized and sworn to by a priest, rabbi, and a pastor. And that you then repeat it in the presence of a jury, and you only get one try, since you did it on your first try. I'd edit your post ASAP (j/k Joey)

Seriously though, Coop is just more proof that this is not as hard as it first seems. Lots of folks have done it...

-td

I also want Patrick Johnson in the mix for notarizing and swearing. (Joey thinks Patrick can swear with teh best of them.)

Thomas, just make sure you show up at the AZ room at Derby City Classic with a pocket full of CASH. Have an empty duffle bag with you to carry your winnings in. You are going to empty out all of the gamblers at DCC, me included.

JoeyA

BTW, where are the diamonds on your pool table. ;-)

 

[ccshrimper]

This is backwards. Outside english would make you hit the OB more full. Inside english makes this shot harder, not easier.

As somebody else said, this shot ain't rocket surgery; just shoot it slow (unless your table has a roll).

pj
chgo

Outside english does not make you hit the ball more full, I've been doing this shot for over 15 years and it's definitely easier to hit it with inside english than outside. Think of it as a little masse, when you use inside english the cue ball changes angles and comes in at a more full shot. Try it ten times both ways and then get back to me. By the way, I've seen this shot done where the cue ball follows the ob into the pocket with a masse... try to do that one