The slip stroke; not its definition, but its purpose

[Jaden]

Yep...

Originally Posted by AtLarge
The purpose of a stroke slip (a "throw") is not to achieve greater cue speed, it is to minimize the likelihood of steering, twisting, jerking, or turning the stick as the CB is struck.

I can't find the original post but I totally agree with the above quote. I can't comment on the slip stroke, however, I have extensively studied the release stroke ---which you are all referring to as the stroke slip---.

Releasing the cue in the forward stroke requires a technique that must be practiced and refined, but if one can master it and trust letting-go, it provides a pure and accurate hit, unencumbered by any unwanted movement the player may apply with the grip hand.

This works especially well where the margin for error on a particular shot has been greatly decreased, such as shooting at a half-blocked pocket or finessing a shot for delicate position.

My friend, Gene Nagy (RIP) who was a great experimenter and a great contributor to the overall knowledge of our game, spent at least a year completely throwing the cue on every shot. He mastered the technique of the throw to where it didn't affect the other balls on the table in the release, as the cue must be unencumbered right at impact and often fell to the table in the follow through.

From that, came a modified version of the release where a regrab is incorporated right after impact. It's tricky and it's difficult to learn but it's worth it. I use it on low percentage shots and situations.

There are many different techniques to get the same end. That end being to let the weight of the cue to do the work. It's almost essential to really get the most consistent stroke.

Even really strong players will tighten up and steer on tougher critical shots.

Teaching yourself to let the weight of the cue do the work in those situations will help to improve consistency on the critical pressure filled shots.

Jaden

 

[BillPorter]

Originally Posted by AtLarge
The purpose of a stroke slip (a "throw") is not to achieve greater cue speed, it is to minimize the likelihood of steering, twisting, jerking, or turning the stick as the CB is struck.

I can't find the original post but I totally agree with the above quote. I can't comment on the slip stroke, however, I have extensively studied the release stroke ---which you are all referring to as the stroke slip---.

Releasing the cue in the forward stroke requires a technique that must be practiced and refined, but if one can master it and trust letting-go, it provides a pure and accurate hit, unencumbered by any unwanted movement the player may apply with the grip hand.

This works especially well where the margin for error on a particular shot has been greatly decreased, such as shooting at a half-blocked pocket or finessing a shot for delicate position.

My friend, Gene Nagy (RIP) who was a great experimenter and a great contributor to the overall knowledge of our game, spent at least a year completely throwing the cue on every shot. He mastered the technique of the throw to where it didn't affect the other balls on the table in the release, as the cue must be unencumbered right at impact and often fell to the table in the follow through.

From that, came a modified version of the release where a regrab is incorporated right after impact. It's tricky and it's difficult to learn but it's worth it. I use it on low percentage shots and situations.

Thanks for the post, Fran. After reading your post, I am anxious to try this at my next practice session.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I can't find the original post but I totally agree with the above quote. I can't comment on the slip stroke, however, I have extensively studied the release stroke ---which you are all referring to as the stroke slip---.

Releasing the cue in the forward stroke requires a technique that must be practiced and refined, but if one can master it and trust letting-go, it provides a pure and accurate hit, unencumbered by any unwanted movement the player may apply with the grip hand.

This works especially well where the margin for error on a particular shot has been greatly decreased, such as shooting at a half-blocked pocket or finessing a shot for delicate position.

My friend, Gene Nagy (RIP) who was a great experimenter and a great contributor to the overall knowledge of our game, spent at least a year completely throwing the cue on every shot. He mastered the technique of the throw to where it didn't affect the other balls on the table in the release, as the cue must be unencumbered right at impact and often fell to the table in the follow through.

From that, came a modified version of the release where a regrab is incorporated right after impact. It's tricky and it's difficult to learn but it's worth it. I use it on low percentage shots and situations.

Fran, this was posted earlier, but I'm posting it again so you don't have to go look for it because I'd really like it if you could take the time to watch Tor Lowry's video about the slip stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VODQn8GtrMA

The whole video is interesting, but the part about the slip stroke begins at 5:38. Tor's interpretation (which he claims he learned directly from Dallas West) incorporates both a backward slip on the back stroke and a throwing motion on the forward stroke.

He is very, very smooth with this stroke, even with a wrapless cue, and delivers plenty of power with the cue. He recommends using corn starch to reduce the friction. Tor feels this is the very best stroke to use on the big table for reasons he explains in the video. As far as it only be useful for 14.1, Tor runs a rack of 10-ball at the end of the segment without getting out of line once.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I don't see how a slip stroke adds anything since the slip happens during the backswing. The forward motion is business as usual.

Now a stroke slip where you release during the forward swing, effectively "throwing" the cue, is a different story.

I guess the question becomes can the cue move faster when it's released during the forward motion vs. being held by the grip hand? Look at baseball pitchers that throw 90 mph fastballs. Are there arms actually moving that fast, or is the speed picked up as the ball is travelling?

If it's the latter, then that answers the first question. However, you have to remember a baseball has a great distance to travel to reach the mound and pick up speed. The cue doesn't have to travel much from end of backswing to impact, so even if "throwing" the cue does add more speed. The amount may be negligible.

OK, I'm sober this morning so I won't be so snotty.

The beauty of most pitchers that have several pitches in their arsenal is that they use the same basic arm speed for all of their pitches. That is usually below 80 MPH. Where does the extra speed come from? Well, it simply can't occur after the release of the ball, and neither can a cue gain velocity after you release it. In a baseball pitch, the extra speed comes not from the arm but from the wrist, and finally, even the fingers.

As long as the fingers are pushing against any part of the ball, you are accelerating it. In a fastball, the ball leaves the hand itself after the wrist snap, but the fingers put the final extra speed and back spin on the ball. This is why a fastball is said to "hop" after release. It is the batter's perception that it does this because he is focused on the arm speed, not the extra speed increase given at the last millisecond by the fingers.

It's also why a change up works, because the arm speed is the same, but the release doesn't incorporate the fingers to increase the speed. I read somewhere that a great pitcher can accelerate the ball up to 10 MPH (IIRC) just by using his fingers at the end. So, the combination and wrist snap and extended finger contact are what is responsible for that unexpected burst of speed, and allowing the ball to leaves the pitchers fingers up to 15 MPH faster than his actual arm speed. And forgive me if I'm a bit off with those actual numbers. I'm a baseball fan, not a pitching expert.

Does this have implications that apply to the pool stroke. Absolutely IMHO. The wrists and fingers can play an huge role in the action of the cue, if they are employed in a way that doesn't interfere with the straight delivery of the cue, and if they are done at precisely the right time. That timing has to be discovered by the player himself, and cannot be accurately generalized among players because we all have different anatomies. You get it by doing it, and doing it a lot, like so many other things in life.

Personally, I don't get all the Band-Aid comments as applied to the slip stroke. To me, the simple cradle grip with few moving parts is the Band-Aid. If you have some ability and put in the time, there are ways to accomplish the job better than simply using the "textbook" pendulum stroke that is so often recommended. That is easy to teach and relatively easy to learn. The advanced techniques like the slip stroke... not so much.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"What's your best game buddy?" said Cornbread in a menacing tone.

I'd also like a discussion on the acceleration using the principle of the slip stroke. Getting a little more weight behind the hit, however subtle, is interesting. After all, it's a magical stroke to us amateurs.

Best,
Mike

Cornbread Red could do some amazing things with that slip-stroke of his. It was fascinating to me as a teenager, I used to joke around about his technique until he showed me what he could do.

He said that he was "pinned the ball" which was the secret to playing well on those super-tight, worn cloth tables at THE RACK in Detroit.

"Cornbread Red" was hustling pool down south and was told this "huge red-neck" would go off for a lot of money gambling, and he considered pool his "best game".

Cornbread went into the bar his "steer-man" said this red-neck was at and saw him sitting by the bartender having a shot and a beer.

Cornbread marched right up to the guy and tapped him boldly on the shoulder..

"What's your best game buddy?" said Cornbread in a menacing tone.

The guy turned around and said "Fighting's my best game!!!" and hit Corn right in "the kisser" knocking him back over some tables and chairs and flat on his back!!!

Cornbread raised up, shook himself off, trying to bring himself back to consciousness. Picking himself up, still dazed from the punch he saw the guy in the same chair, now finishing his beer.

Corn stood up, and marched right back up to the guy, tapping him on the shoulder again!!! "What's your 2nd best game buddy?"

The guy turned around and said "pool's my 2nd best game!"

Cornbread quickly busted the guy out of all his money and headed to the next "spot".

 

[nancewayne]

THE slip stoke !

When I played mainly 14.1 and a LOT if small strokes, I held the cue VERY lightly ! Often the consequence of that was the cue would slip forward through my grip hand....so yes, I have a slip stoke on softly hit shots!

In another thread, there was a long debate over whether Mosconi, on occasion, used a slip stroke. Without going into the somewhat tedious hair-splitting about the definition of a slip stroke, for me, it entails sliding your hand toward the butt of the cue during the final backstroke. When I tried it 50 years ago, I did it to put more juice or spin on the cue ball. My slip stroke involved sliding my grip hand 2, 3, or, at most, 4 inches back toward the butt of the cue. For me, it seemed to increase the amount of spin on the cue ball at the expense of accuracy.

Just wondered if any of you old slip strokers, or young ones for that matter, agree or disagree with the purpose of the stroke.

 

[3kushn]

Originally Posted by AtLarge
The purpose of a stroke slip (a "throw") is not to achieve greater cue speed, it is to minimize the likelihood of steering, twisting, jerking, or turning the stick as the CB is struck.

I can't find the original post but I totally agree with the above quote. I can't comment on the slip stroke, however, I have extensively studied the release stroke ---which you are all referring to as the stroke slip---.

Releasing the cue in the forward stroke requires a technique that must be practiced and refined, but if one can master it and trust letting-go, it provides a pure and accurate hit, unencumbered by any unwanted movement the player may apply with the grip hand.

This works especially well where the margin for error on a particular shot has been greatly decreased, such as shooting at a half-blocked pocket or finessing a shot for delicate position.

My friend, Gene Nagy (RIP) who was a great experimenter and a great contributor to the overall knowledge of our game, spent at least a year completely throwing the cue on every shot. He mastered the technique of the throw to where it didn't affect the other balls on the table in the release, as the cue must be unencumbered right at impact and often fell to the table in the follow through.

From that, came a modified version of the release where a regrab is incorporated right after impact. It's tricky and it's difficult to learn but it's worth it. I use it on low percentage shots and situations.

I like to release the cue. My rubber grip helps the cue stay in my hand.

Here's (for Lou's benefit) a grip reposition then the slip on the same shot @ approx. 5:23.
https://vimeo.com/4957545

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Mikjary:
I'd also like a discussion on the acceleration using the principle of the slip stroke.

CJ:
Cornbread Red could do some amazing things with that slip-stroke of his.
...
He said that he was "pinned the ball" which was the secret to playing well on those super-tight, worn cloth tables at THE RACK in Detroit.

Yeah, but... what does that have to do with his slip stroke and how did it help his "acceleration"?

pj
chgo

 

[Palmetto cue]

a little bit unrelated to the question, but at the derby I watched Josh Roberts play. He is a young player and although its subtle, he has a slip stoke. His is so smooth and effective. Great player.

Yes he does! A fine young player!

 

[ENGLISH!]

OK, I'm sober this morning so I won't be so snotty.

The beauty of most pitchers that have several pitches in their arsenal is that they use the same basic arm speed for all of their pitches. That is usually below 80 MPH. Where does the extra speed come from? Well, it simply can't occur after the release of the ball, and neither can a cue gain velocity after you release it. In a baseball pitch, the extra speed comes not from the arm but from the wrist, and finally, even the fingers.

As long as the fingers are pushing against any part of the ball, you are accelerating it. In a fastball, the ball leaves the hand itself after the wrist snap, but the fingers put the final extra speed and back spin on the ball. This is why a fastball is said to "hop" after release. It is the batter's perception that it does this because he is focused on the arm speed, not the extra speed increase given at the last millisecond by the fingers.

It's also why a change up works, because the arm speed is the same, but the release doesn't incorporate the fingers to increase the speed. I read somewhere that a great pitcher can accelerate the ball up to 10 MPH (IIRC) just by using his fingers at the end. So, the combination and wrist snap and extended finger contact are what is responsible for that unexpected burst of speed, and allowing the ball to leaves the pitchers fingers up to 15 MPH faster than his actual arm speed. And forgive me if I'm a bit off with those actual numbers. I'm a baseball fan, not a pitching expert.

Does this have implications that apply to the pool stroke. Absolutely IMHO. The wrists and fingers can play an huge role in the action of the cue, if they are employed in a way that doesn't interfere with the straight delivery of the cue, and if they are done at precisely the right time. That timing has to be discovered by the player himself, and cannot be accurately generalized among players because we all have different anatomies. You get it by doing it, and doing it a lot, like so many other things in life.

Personally, I don't get all the Band-Aid comments as applied to the slip stroke. To me, the simple cradle grip with few moving parts is the Band-Aid. If you have some ability and put in the time, there are ways to accomplish the job better than simply using the "textbook" pendulum stroke that is so often recommended. That is easy to teach and relatively easy to learn. The advanced techniques like the slip stroke... not so much.

A very good post & I agree.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS I don't know the numbers either & I was a pitching coach for a couple of years at a middle school before getting the Head Coaching Job. At 13 & 14 years of age I was able to add 5 to sometimes 10 mph to nearly every pitcher that I got my hands on just by teaching them how to properly use their wrists & fingers just as you relayed. I also taught two types of change ups. One that was more like a curveball but without putting pressure on a young & still growing young 'man's' elbow.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Originally Posted by AtLarge
The purpose of a stroke slip (a "throw") is not to achieve greater cue speed, it is to minimize the likelihood of steering, twisting, jerking, or turning the stick as the CB is struck.

I can't find the original post but I totally agree with the above quote. I can't comment on the slip stroke, however, I have extensively studied the release stroke ---which you are all referring to as the stroke slip---.

Releasing the cue in the forward stroke requires a technique that must be practiced and refined, but if one can master it and trust letting-go, it provides a pure and accurate hit, unencumbered by any unwanted movement the player may apply with the grip hand.

This works especially well where the margin for error on a particular shot has been greatly decreased, such as shooting at a half-blocked pocket or finessing a shot for delicate position.

My friend, Gene Nagy (RIP) who was a great experimenter and a great contributor to the overall knowledge of our game, spent at least a year completely throwing the cue on every shot. He mastered the technique of the throw to where it didn't affect the other balls on the table in the release, as the cue must be unencumbered right at impact and often fell to the table in the follow through.

From that, came a modified version of the release where a regrab is incorporated right after impact. It's tricky and it's difficult to learn but it's worth it. I use it on low percentage shots and situations.

Good post. :thumbup2:

 

[lfigueroa]

I like to release the cue. My rubber grip helps the cue stay in my hand.

Here's (for Lou's benefit) a grip reposition then the slip on the same shot @ approx. 5:23.
https://vimeo.com/4957545

ummm, we already talked about this video in the other thread. To summarize (for the dilettantes who did not stick with it): yes, Mosconi sometimes used a small slip stroke, somewhere between rarely and occasionally. That means he has a slip stroke in his tool box but he was not a slip stroke player in the same sense that that descriptor could be applied to Cowboy Jimmy Moore or Cornbread.

Lou Figueroa

 

[3kushn]

ummm, we already talked about this video in the other thread. To summarize (for the dilettantes who did not stick with it): yes, Mosconi sometimes used a small slip stroke, somewhere between rarely and occasionally. That means he has a slip stroke in his tool box but he was not a slip stroke player in the same sense that that descriptor could be applied to Cowboy Jimmy Moore or Cornbread.

Lou Figueroa

Just a little ribbing.
I did miss that you acknowledged he did slip once in a while.

Keeping with the OP question. So why do you think he slipped on that shot?
What was he looking for?

 

[lfigueroa]

Just a little ribbing.
I did miss that you acknowledged he did slip once in a while.

Keeping with the OP question. So why do you think he slipped on that shot?
What was he looking for?

It's just a guess of course but I'd say that he was down on the shot and at the last moment wasn't happy with his grip position, so he slid it back a bit. I don't think he was going for any special action on the ball, it was just something he did to make a last moment grip adjustment.

Lou Figueroa

 

[3kushn]

It's just a guess of course but I'd say that he was down on the shot and at the last moment wasn't happy with his grip position, so he slid it back a bit. I don't think he was going for any special action on the ball, it was just something he did to make a last moment grip adjustment.

Lou Figueroa

That's funny.

I say he slipped to get a little upstroke. :wink:

 

[SJDinPHX]

ummm, we already talked about this video in the other thread. To summarize (for the dilettantes who did not stick with it): yes, Mosconi sometimes used a small slip stroke, somewhere between rarely and occasionally. That means he has a slip stroke in his tool box but he was not a slip stroke player in the same sense that that descriptor could be applied to Cowboy Jimmy Moore or Cornbread.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, almost every upper level pool player has used, or at least experimented with the slip-stroke !..As for myself, I developed it almost exclusively from the start... During my 9-ball days, I did not think there was any better method of playing, as did most of my peers !

However, as my game progressed to golf and one pocket, I found that the delicate touch shots necessary for those games, became much more unreliable using a slip-stroke, and I guess I eventually phased it out of my stroke..I obviously can't speak for everyone, but for myself, I don't think I would have enjoyed what success I have had, had I not gone to the more conventional style of gripping the club !..Bottom line, less movement... ..less can go wrong with the delicate shots !

SJD---BTW, what do Mosconi and Moore know about it ?..They never even learned to spell 'One Pocket' ! :thumbup: (sorry, thought I was on 1P.org )

 

[CJ Wiley]

Efren Reyes - video clip 2:00 - 2:06

Watch this video of Efren playing. Notice at 2:00 - 2:06 and see what he does with his back hand.

This is not a "slip stroke" like Cornbread used to do, however, it accomplishes many of the same things......many players do this, it's just not detectable until you are made aware of it.

LINK TO EFREN REYES VIDEO - NOTICE 2:00 - 2:06

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran, this was posted earlier, but I'm posting it again so you don't have to go look for it because I'd really like it if you could take the time to watch Tor Lowry's video about the slip stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VODQn8GtrMA

The whole video is interesting, but the part about the slip stroke begins at 5:38. Tor's interpretation (which he claims he learned directly from Dallas West) incorporates both a backward slip on the back stroke and a throwing motion on the forward stroke.

He is very, very smooth with this stroke, even with a wrapless cue, and delivers plenty of power with the cue. He recommends using corn starch to reduce the friction. Tor feels this is the very best stroke to use on the big table for reasons he explains in the video. As far as it only be useful for 14.1, Tor runs a rack of 10-ball at the end of the segment without getting out of line once.

Very interesting video. Thanks. 6:50 - 7:30 defines his interpretation of the purpose of the slip stroke, which is similar to what I wrote about the forward release.

 

[alstl]

Very interesting video. Thanks. 6:50 - 7:30 defines his interpretation of the purpose of the slip stroke, which is similar to what I wrote about the forward release.

That's what I believe the advantage is, to reduce flaws in the backstroke. What's interesting about Mosconi is he played with a wrap and used the slip stroke. I imagine if you compiled a list of guys who used it most of them used a wrapless cue.

 

[sfleinen]

That's what I believe the advantage is, to reduce flaws in the backstroke. What's interesting about Mosconi is he played with a wrap and used the slip stroke. I imagine if you compiled a list of guys who used it most of them used a wrapless cue.

Hmm... that's a head-scratching conclusion. Irish linen is a lot more slippery than a gloss finish. (The latter tends to "stick" to skin -- which is called "tack" -- unless you use corn starch or something to break the tack.) Most of the folks I've seen use a slip stroke, used irish linen. Wrapless cues are not easy to execute a slip stroke with, especially if the skin is slightly moist. It can be done, however, and Tor Lowry's video explains how (he mentions the corn starch).

-Sean