The Stroke Thread

[arcticmonkey]

I will help you with what I said.

Two different stroke lines can produce a draw effect and sometimes other effects. Those other effects are a jump, side roll or a combination of the draw with jump or the draw with side roll.

Specifically that the CB "magic" is caused by the stroke because at the beginning contact to the end of contact a force is being applied to the cue ball by the cue stick.

Knowing how to navigate the CB with all the effects of physics opens the range of positional play for people familiar with the concept, some people already know some may not. I post to see who knows, is familiar with or isn't familiar with it.

Essential to developing an idea is predicting when it happens that is what BCEC (beginning contact and ending contact) is it is a cause with a result. The result being the CB motion of side-draw, side-roll and jump-draw. Unique to my idea is that BCEC is the determining factor in creating side-draw, side-roll and jump-draw.

I am not able to say how to enhance your game, I am not familiar with your limitations or how to expand them.

I am discussing the cause for the effects of CB side-draw, side-roll and jump-draw. Direct your inquiries about improving your game to the "Ask An Instructor" section of the forum.

I am struggling to understand your point in those first few paragraphs. They contain a degree of waffle.

Perhaps you could try to focus on one or two aspects of your idea and concentrate on explaining them in detail. The main area I would appreciate you expanding on is BCEC.

How does the player identify the beginning and ending contacts and how should their stroke vary between the two to produce the desired side draw, side roll and jump draw effects?

Elliot <--- sincerely

 

[Jaden]

I"m not positive about this but.....

Why make this more difficult than it needs to be. We know that energy in = energy out.
The energy we put into the shot is all delivered through the tip of the cue stick when it strikes the cue ball. Now, there are two ways that energy can show up in the cue ball...directional speed or rotational speed. If you hit perfectly center ball, all of the energy becomes directional energy. If you hit off center, some of that energy is translated to rotational energy. The farther from center you move the contact point, the less energy goes into directional speed, and the more goes into rotational speed.

If you increase the amount of energy going into the shot by increasing cue speed at impact, you can get more rotational speed and more directional speed, but it is still going to be divided the same way. The only ways to get more rotational speed are to either move the contact point out to the edge of the usable area (half way between center and edge of the ball), or increase the speed of the cue at contact.

The only questions to ask are Where is the tip coming from and heading toward when it makes contact, where is it making contact reletive to center, and how fast is it moving when it makes contact.
This is all you have any control over, and it is all that really matters.

Steve

I think that hitting it harder would increase the rotational speed but at a smaller and smaller percentage, because the tangential transfer of energy will lessen due to the forward momentum being greater and applying a larger amount of the transferred energy to the CB's forward motion and less towards the tangential transfer of energy. So although you will get more spin than with a softer shot, it will have a higher ratio of increased forward velocity on the CB compared to the spin from the tangential transfer of energy.

So you are correct that to get more spin you can hit it harder, but you will get less more spin than by going out farther from center and hitting it the same speed...

Jaden

p.s. Just thought that I'd add at least a little something other than nonsensical argument to this thread....

 

[river]

stroke

I can't believe how much time I wasted reading this!

 

[justnum]

I am struggling to understand your point in those first few paragraphs. They contain a degree of waffle.

Perhaps you could try to focus on one or two aspects of your idea and concentrate on explaining them in detail. The main area I would appreciate you expanding on is BCEC.

How does the player identify the beginning and ending contacts and how should their stroke vary between the two to produce the desired side draw, side roll and jump draw effects?

Elliot <--- sincerely

The video only demonstrated the effect produced when the cue ball and object are straight on. I can limit the application of my comments to those shots.

Imagine the contact of the CB with the CS, a regular stroke will shoot through it. However if you consider the elasticity of the CS then you can flick as you stroke the cue to produce the intended effects. If you want to produce the side roll to the right then identify the contact point as if you were to shoot straight then, BEFORE CONTACT move the cue from left, with the "flicking motion" so that the END CONTACT is to the right of the contact point and the contact point when the cue strikes is the one identified earlier, from when you aim for a straight through stroke.

The analogy for the flicking motion is a straw, no bendy straws, regular straight straws, bend it a little bit and watch it move like a pendulum. This is the type of motion that BCEC stroke implements. A case of BCEC is the straight through stroke in that case the BCEC are the same points.

The jump draw is produced with a BCEC from high to low.
The side draw is produced with a BCEC from straight-on contact to low right or low left.
The side roll is produced with a BCEC from left to right or vice-versa.

The concept BCEC is that the CS acts as a pendulum and that is the reason the side-roll, side-draw and jump-draw occur. The physics behind it is another story.

 

[arcticmonkey]

The video only demonstrated the effect produced when the cue ball and object are straight on. I can limit the application of my comments to those shots.

Imagine the contact of the CB with the CS, a regular stroke will shoot through it. However if you consider the elasticity of the CS then you can flick as you stroke the cue to produce the intended effects. If you want to produce the side roll to the right then identify the contact point as if you were to shoot straight then, BEFORE CONTACT move the cue from left, with the "flicking motion" so that the END CONTACT is to the right of the contact point and the contact point when the cue strikes is the one identified earlier, from when you aim for a straight through stroke.

The analogy for the flicking motion is a straw, no bendy straws, regular straight straws, bend it a little bit and watch it move like a pendulum. This is the type of motion that BCEC stroke implements. A case of BCEC is the straight through stroke in that case the BCEC are the same points.

The jump draw is produced with a BCEC from high to low.
The side draw is produced with a BCEC from straight-on contact to low right or low left.
The side roll is produced with a BCEC from left to right or vice-versa.

The concept BCEC is that the CS acts as a pendulum and that is the reason the side-roll, side-draw and jump-draw occur. The physics behind it is another story.

Thank you. My work here is done.

Elliot <--- justnum's #1

 

[Scott Lee]

Pat...There is a third variable, having to do with your description of "how hard you hit the CB" (we prefer to describe it as the bicep speed). There is a significant difference, in terms of overall effect and ease of accurate delivery, in stroking using the weight of the cue and timing, versus a tight grip driving the cue through the CB. Both ways work, but cue weight and timing, imo, is always preferable, due to the ability of the brain, to train the bicep.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

As Scott said, there is only one stroke. The only variables are:

- where you hit the CB (and at what angle)
- how hard you hit the CB

Follow through is just a way to ensure the same, straight stroke every time so you can hit the CB where you want to.

Pool is hard, but it's not complicated.

pj
chgo

 

[Scott Lee]

Well Neil, to be honest...he did sorta get #6 right (one outta seven ain't too bad! LOL). A draw shot can be a stop shot, with enough distance between the CB and OB. :thumbup: Remember, you cannot convince someone who is certain they're right...so quit trying! This is why we always tell students not to let what you already "know" get in the way of learning something new!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Since you want to disagree with the actual science of the game, and think the best instructors in the country are wrong, I won't bother correcting you. Have fun with your game. By the way, I disagree with all 7 points.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

Well Neil, to be honest...he did sorta get #6 right (one outta seven ain't too bad! LOL). A draw shot can be a stop shot, with enough distance between the CB and OB. :thumbup: Remember, you cannot convince someone who is certain they're right...so quit trying! This is why we always tell students not to let what you already "know" get in the way of learning something new!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Even though I agree with you: Couldn't you say that to both sides?

 

[JimmyWhite]

The jump draw is produced with a BCEC from high to low.

If you elevate your cue, the force of the cue stick on the cue ball is analyzed in two components. A parallel and a vertical in relation with the table. The parallel will accelerate the CB forward and the vertical will cause a same reaction from the table towards the CB causing it to jump. So yes, if the BC and the EC are not at the same level they will create an angle between them and the table, the vertical force will appear causing the CB to jump.

The side draw is produced with a BCEC from straight-on contact to low right or low left.
The side roll is produced with a BCEC from left to right or vice-versa.

Not necessarily. The side draw or side roll or just stun shot is produced when the CB makes contact with the OB with backwards or no spin at all and the two balls do not collide perfectly head on with each other. If you aim head on and dead straight at the OB and then decide to twist your stroke so that the line connecting the BC and EC points have an angle in regards with the line connecting the two centers of the balls, then you will just make the exact opposite of a straight follow through. If you want to cause the side roll you don't have to twist your stroke (therefore making it imperfect and not consistent) to produce it. This just makes your life harder. Just aim a little bit to the left or right in the first place, follow through STRAIGHT (as you should and always do) and voila, you managed to have the BCEC line and the line connecting the two ball centers have an angle with each other while executing a straight and standard follow through. The two balls will collide off center and will produce side draw roll or stun.

P.S. Is there REALLY a BCEC line? Maybe it would be easier if you forgot all about the BCEC stuff and imagine a line which connects the cue tip contact point and a random point on your cue stick.

 

[justnum]

Not necessarily. The side draw or side roll or just stun shot is produced when the CB makes contact with the OB with backwards or no spin at all and the two balls do not collide perfectly head on with each other. If you aim head on and dead straight at the OB and then decide to twist your stroke so that the line connecting the BC and EC points have an angle in regards with the line connecting the two centers of the balls, then you will just make the exact opposite of a straight follow through. If you want to cause the side roll you don't have to twist your stroke (therefore making it imperfect and not consistent) to produce it. This just makes your life harder. Just aim a little bit to the left or right in the first place, follow through STRAIGHT (as you should and always do) and voila, you managed to have the BCEC line and the line connecting the two ball centers have an angle with each other while executing a straight and standard follow through. The two balls will collide off center and will produce side draw roll or stun.

The experiment was for a cue ball and an object ball in a straight on collision. I agree aiming left and right of center produces side roll. But the experiment was to see if the side roll can be produced from a straight on shot or contact point.

The situation would be you have a shot down the rail straight on but you want to develop position. So instead of shooting straight and limit the cue ball position, you apply the side roll method to open up options on the table. Pocketing the shot will limit how much side roll can be applied but at least you can choose between, follow, draw, draw-side, and side and jump-draw.

A common situation is a player is left in a bad situation or forced to play a straight on shot. Breaking out of the forced pattern of the straight on collision can happen with the concept on side-roll, side-draw and jump-draw all actions require the pendulum-type stroking motion. A player knows that you are limited to draw and follow for a straight on a shot and can plan against you. If your aware of the idea about side-draw, side-roll and jump-draw then you have a counter-tactic.

The BCEC works out so that each time it is applied an intended effect is produced. The hard part is timing the stroke so that the correct contact is made and the shot is pocketed. Generating the pendulum or BCEC motion is easy but it isn't easy to combine it with pocketing a shot. I have some footage of the BCEC being applied to pocketing shots but the angle is not helpful for the discussion of the thread. And that is producing side-roll, side-draw and jump-draw on a straight on shot. I open the thread to other theories or ideas about how to produce those effects in similar circumstances.

(Post related video if you have an alternative explanation on the circumstances discussed in this thread.)

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Straight thru strokes are ideal for playing pool.

It is possible that a stroke that isn't straight can hit the same contact point that a straight through stroke hits. The difference is that when the cue is stroked by a non-straight stroke it produces an effect on to the cue ball.

The non-straight stroke is identical with a "straight thru" stroke from a different angle.

The concept between BCEC (beginning contact and ending contact) is that you aim and stroke through the CB as if it were straight, but instead of hitting straight through the CB you stroke through the same point but on a different line through the CB.

By swooping your stroke? This has been discussed many times - it produces nothing more than a normal hit at a different angle (with sidespin added), with less control.

Instead of just pushing forward on the cue stick you move it sideways and forward to hit the cue and at the same contact point as if you were to hit straight through it, that is BCEC (beginning contact and ending contact).

Also known as backhand english.

The BCEC (beginning contact and ending contact) is a possible explanation for the sideward roll or the draw and hop effects produced by the CB.

No, it's not. It's a misnomer for a simple swooping stroke with simple swooping stroke consequences (including less accuracy).

pj
chgo

 

[justnum]

pj
chgo

You didn't want to discuss the terminology you were comfy with earlier. I gave you time to share what you knew about the topic.

Currently you are debating terminology. The simplest statement I can offer is instead of stroking with the cue stick consider swinging the cue stick like a pendulum as you stroke it in order to produce jump-draw, side-draw and side-roll, I call it BCEC but I am liking pendulum stroke more now.

Please continue to elaborate on a relation between cause and effect for various cue ball effects. The cause and effect relation I bring up is BCEC or pendulum stroke which can explains jump-draw, side-draw and side-roll. I will post some vids later about the limits of pendulum stroke, but not now.

And you still owe an explanation of concepts that you can elaborate on for the physics of billiards. An explanation is not posting a link, or copying and pasting information from a link. An explanation is a brief summary of a cause-effect relation and your interpretation of it as well as a conclusion about how the cause-effect relation can be used during a cue stick and cue ball situation.

 

[Jaden]

The simple answer to that is...

The experiment was for a cue ball and an object ball in a straight on collision. I agree aiming left and right of center produces side roll. But the experiment was to see if the side roll can be produced from a straight on shot or contact point.

The situation would be you have a shot down the rail straight on but you want to develop position. So instead of shooting straight and limit the cue ball position, you apply the side roll method to open up options on the table. Pocketing the shot will limit how much side roll can be applied but at least you can choose between, follow, draw, draw-side, and side and jump-draw.

A common situation is a player is left in a bad situation or forced to play a straight on shot. Breaking out of the forced pattern of the straight on collision can happen with the concept on side-roll, side-draw and jump-draw all actions require the pendulum-type stroking motion. A player knows that you are limited to draw and follow for a straight on a shot and can plan against you. If your aware of the idea about side-draw, side-roll and jump-draw then you have a counter-tactic.

The BCEC works out so that each time it is applied an intended effect is produced. The hard part is timing the stroke so that the correct contact is made and the shot is pocketed. Generating the pendulum or BCEC motion is easy but it isn't easy to combine it with pocketing a shot. I have some footage of the BCEC being applied to pocketing shots but the angle is not helpful for the discussion of the thread. And that is producing side-roll, side-draw and jump-draw on a straight on shot. I open the thread to other theories or ideas about how to produce those effects in similar circumstances.

(Post related video if you have an alternative explanation on the circumstances discussed in this thread.)

The simple answer is that there really is no such thing as a straight on shot. It's an illusion when you think there is. You can sometimes hit the ob REALLY CLOSE to straight but your still a little off center.

The harder you hit the ball the longer the CB will follow the tangent prior to biting into the cloth with whatever spin is on the CB, if it's a stun shot , it will directly follow the tangent, if there's follow it will follow a parabolic curve from the tangent going forward and how hard you hit it will determine how soon the forward spin will bite into the felt and start the forward motion, the opposite is true for draw.

If you're seeing the ball (on a straight shot) go off to the side, what is really happening is that it is not being hit straight on, the harder you hit it, the closer you can be to straight (creating an illusion of a straighter shot) and still manage to follow the tangent line.

You can also change the angle of approach with an off center hit (swiping can make you think that your hitting it with only draw, but you're really hitting it off center) This will cause the CB to squirt slightly and throw the ball back straight.

Swiping is not a way to play better pool, too inconsistent evident by your thinking that you're only using draw or follow and that it's a different type of stroke when you're really just applying sidespin.

I can understand why you're thinking the way you are, but trust me this has been mete out by people with a lot of resources and you are just mistaken.

Jaden

 

[Patrick Johnson]

justnum:
Currently you are debating terminology.

Currently I'm pointing out how you overcomplicate and overestimate a simple change of stroke direction (made more complicated by swooping).

The simplest statement I can offer is instead of stroking with the cue stick consider swinging the cue stick like a pendulum as you stroke it

Yeah, you already said that. The only part of your "pendulum stroke" that matters is the instant you hit the CB - and the only thing that matters then is what direction the tip is travelling and how fast. How your tip got there (straight, swooping, loop de loops, skywriting, etc.) is irrelevant.

pj
chgo

 

[pooltchr]

Justnum....To be perfectly honest, and to the point, I believe you are making all of this much more complicated and difficult than it needs to be. You may be overthinking this whole BCBC idea.

PJ made a good point. Pool is not complicated, although it is difficult.

Keep it simple. I don't believe what you are trying to promote has much if any practical application. And while it may make for interesting discussion, it's probably not going to make anyone a better player.

Steve

 

[duckie]

Only on AZ Billiards will you find a group of guys debating the proper way to stroke their sticks......

 

[justnum]

Analyze the content of what I post, the videos and try to see if it works.

I am no longer calling it BCEC, now it is called pendulum stroke.

Pendulum stroke is a method to produce side-draw, side-roll and jump-draw.

I do like expanding the knowledge of physics applications in billiards. Pendulum stroke is the latest idea that explains side-draw, side-roll and jump-draw in a straight-on collision between CB and OB.

It was easy to study because newbies that play pool have a pendulum type stroke.

There are some other strokes I will discuss later but that has been enough for the week. Please continue to discuss on the thread about strokes and as you discuss try to draw new conclusions or make generalizations about what is happening during the stroke as the CS strikes the CB.

I am not copyrighting my work, so if you feel like stealing it then do so. It is just an observation worth writing down.

 

[MikeM]

Reading this thread ...

...reminds me of one of my favorite sayings:

"Don't wrestle with a pig, because you'll both get muddy and only the pig will like it!".

 

[Jaden]

wow....

Justnum is in his own little world...

I'm hoping this is a new tack of a regular like what's his name the CUETEC warrior was....because the alternative is pathetic...

I mean the only other thing I can think of is some APA newby college student who thinks he's the cat's tit in thinking and has licked the billiards stroke and wants to edumacate all of us who have been working with and in billiards for years and probably have more conglomerate knowledge in billiards than any other group of people in the world, (even if we don't always agree completely).

Jaden...

 

[dr9ball]

I was going to get some popcorn but this thread is turning into a huge timesuck. Anyone can rename things, it still doesn't change anything. If you can keep things as simple as possible while not leaving any key elements out you may find greater success than trying to reinvent the wheel.