the sub culture thread got me thinking.

JasonCrugar

analysis paralysis
Silver Member
About why pool isnt more "mainstream". I thought ok from a fans perspective pool is boring to everyone but the hardcore fans. Even hardcore fans its hard to sit through hours of one pocket. (no offense to the one hole guys) But it is. In baseball fans and player alike try to " shark" the player into whiffing. In basketball they shake crazy stuff when they are shooting, scream at the top of their lungs, and do whatever they feel like. Pool you have to sit on your hands and try not to breathe to not " shark " someone. Do baseball players blame the fans for being sharked when the blow it? Do basketball players cry it was the fans fault they miss? No they suck it the F up and do better next time and accept blame for it.

I'm not gonna say it is anyones fault for the state Pool is in, as i think that is counterproductive. what i am gonna say is what i think would help Pool as a whole. Entertainment value. Think of your favorite pool players throughout time. Mine were guys like ronnie allen, keith mcready,scooter, and pretty much anyone that i consider a showstopper. they didnt have to be the best player, but they did things made you shake your head and say HOLY CRAP DID HE JUST DO THAT TO HIM?!?!?!?!. or top pros that look at the fans after doggin a ball, and ask how sweet was that shot and share a laugh with em. i could go on for days on this subject but i will cut it off as this post is already a mile long. i will end on this, sports are nothing without the fans. if the pros gave the fans a more dynamic experience their following would expand 10 fold and the fans would demand the sponsors come to us. And they would have no choice but to do so.
 
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Gmanpoke

Banned
Jason,

I've stated before why I think pool is not mainstream America and I won't go through all of it again. But, pool is not mainstream because of its image created over the last 100 years. Pool was mainstream in the late 1800s and early 1900s, well at least for men. I don't know how old you are Jason but when I was a kid there were pools in every small town across the U.S. If fact, the county seat where I grew up was a town with a population of about 2,500 people. And, that town had 2 pools halls.

Now, as far as comparing pool to basketball or baseball, they are not comparable. So you think some pro grandstanding to the crowd is going to grow this sport. Do you really think scooters antics will bring mainstream America to pool? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy scooter's act as well as the next pool player, but mainstream America is not going to find it entertaining.

Steven
 

pocketspeed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jason,

I've stated before why I think pool is not mainstream America and I won't go through all of it again. But, pool is not mainstream because of its image created over the last 100 years. Pool was mainstream in the late 1800s and early 1900s, well at least for men. I don't know how old you are Jason but when I was a kid there were pools in every small town across the U.S. If fact, the county seat where I grew up was a town with a population of about 2,500 people. And, that town had 2 pools halls.

Now, as far as comparing pool to basketball or baseball, they are not comparable. So you think some pro grandstanding to the crowd is going to grow this sport. Do you really think scooters antics will bring mainstream America to pool? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy scooter's act as well as the next pool player, but mainstream America is not going to find it entertaining.

Steven

you may be incorrect here. sports are entertainment. if the spectator is not going to be entertained they are not going to watch. pool by its nature is boring to watch. if the sport is not enteraining on its own then the player must become the entertainer and pool must become more interactive with the fans. if the game is boring to watch, if the players are boring to watch and the spectator is allowed an occasional polite hand clap you have a non starter.

brian
 

Gmanpoke

Banned
you may be incorrect here. sports are entertainment. if the spectator is not going to be entertained they are not going to watch. pool by its nature is boring to watch. if the sport is not enteraining on its own then the player must become the entertainer and pool must become more interactive with the fans. if the game is boring to watch, if the players are boring to watch and the spectator is allowed an occasional polite hand clap you have a non starter.

brian

I maybe incorrect. But, I would argue that pool is not a spectator sport. This is a sport for participants. So, put some charming (I use that term loosely) individual in front of the crowd with an entertaining skit/act and its still a boring spectators sport. Yea, I will watch pool because I love the game, but mainstream America is not going to all the sudden become a fan of pool because of scooter's act.

In my opinion, for pool to become mainstream, moms and dads need to take their children to a family oriented pool room that is non threating (in their eyes). If you want pool to become mainstream, then you must create an atmosphere where mainstream America will want to come. Just my opinion, but I don't think scooter :eek: is the answer.

Look, golf is a boring sport to watch (my opinion). Yet, million of people watch golf every weekend. I would argue that most of the people watching golf are golfers. They play golf and get some enjoyment/entertainment out of watching. How many non-pool playing people do you think will watch one of streams this weekend? You could argue that the non-pool playing public don't know the streams exist and that's the reason they watch it.

I don't think mainstream America has the same view for golf's subculture and they do pool's subculture. But again, I maybe incorrect here. Maybe the problem with pool is we don't have enough entertainers.

Steven
 

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is another way to look at it. Chess is similar to pool in many ways and yet does not have the stigma. In addition, chess is taught to children with a considerable amount of support for chess clubs and such. So in a sense the problems with chess in that it is not a national sport with large purses are similar to the problems with pool. Except that chess does not carry the stigma that playing pool carries.

So why isn’t chess more popular in the sense of prime time TV and large purses? The equipment and space requirements are much less expensive. The game is politically correct for males and females. It can be very exciting in a war like way and yet it does not have the popularity of football and similar sports.

We often compare playing pool to golf but a better comparison might be chess which lingers on the fringes of mass appeal.

Chess languishes because it does not have enough appeal to attract the masses. While you and I might disagree with the public I suggest that playing pool is in the same group. It is just not sexy enough for mass appeal.

It is what it is and I doubt that it will ever have the mass appeal any more that it did in the early 1900s because there are “more interesting” things today for the masses.

BTW for those who think that chess requires some level of intelligence it is simply not true. Some of the better chess players and one of the places where there is much support for playing chess is in prisons – not exactly the intellectual elite. Like pool playing, chess does require a lengthy training period and those with innate skills rise to the top.

For pool to become more popular it needs the excitement of Football and the mass appeal of dancing with the stars.
 

DelaWho???

Banger McCue
Silver Member
When they start waving towels and sporting big foam fingers on the putting green you'll have a point.



:cool:
 

Tramp Steamer

One Pocket enthusiast.
Silver Member
Why do you want to 'mainstream' the cue sports anyway? I personally like it the way it is. Any entertainment I get out of pool is when I spend my afternoons playing One Pocket at the poolhall. I certainly don't need to see endless hours of rotation games being played on three or four ESPN channels. We billiard fanatics have our own small world (comparativly speaking) going on and I, for one, am loathe to change it. I would agree to cheaper table time, however. :)
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Gee, I can't wait for ESPN to pick up the match between Scooter and Tim Heath. If that won't bring mainstream America to their TV sets, what possibly could;)? Is that what the sport needs to grow? Earl vrs Tony Drago? Dippy Dave vrs Ronnie Allen?

To me, that is the part of the game that may drive potential sponsors away. I differ from most on this forum on this subject. Major sponsors care about buying power not shooting power. Whether the stands are full of people watching is im-material. The number of TV sets tuned to the event and the buying power of the viewers is. With the demographics of our game, I'm suprised Budweiser, Miller Brewing, Jack Daniels, Chevrolet Trucks, etc. haven't jumped in. I'd be interested to know why. Gosh, those boring people playing Golf have Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Range Rover and Buick sponsoring them!

Lyn
 

pocketspeed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I maybe incorrect. But, I would argue that pool is not a spectator sport. This is a sport for participants. So, put some charming (I use that term loosely) individual in front of the crowd with an entertaining skit/act and its still a boring spectators sport. Yea, I will watch pool because I love the game, but mainstream America is not going to all the sudden become a fan of pool because of scooter's act.

In my opinion, for pool to become mainstream, moms and dads need to take their children to a family oriented pool room that is non threating (in their eyes). If you want pool to become mainstream, then you must create an atmosphere where mainstream America will want to come. Just my opinion, but I don't think scooter :eek: is the answer.

Look, golf is a boring sport to watch (my opinion). Yet, million of people watch golf every weekend. I would argue that most of the people watching golf are golfers. They play golf and get some enjoyment/entertainment out of watching. How many non-pool playing people do you think will watch one of streams this weekend? You could argue that the non-pool playing public don't know the streams exist and that's the reason they watch it.

I don't think mainstream America has the same view for golf's subculture and they do pool's subculture. But again, I maybe incorrect here. Maybe the problem with pool is we don't have enough entertainers.

Steven

i agree with you that pool the way it is presented now is condusive to being a spectator sport. however snooker has enjoyed some success as a spectator sport. members more knowledgable that i could comment on the differences in persentation.

i also agree that golf can be boring to watch on tv. i am not a golfer but will occasionally get sucked in to televised play.

here are a few reasons (among others) i think pool is bad to spectate at:

in person the venue of a pool room sucks. theres usually very little room and no good vantage for the match you want to see. (eg-ocean state 9 ball tourney-plenty of star power held in one of the best poolrooms in the country. last year they had like 104 players crammed in, no room at all to watch)

on tv-matches are not televised live, the commentating is often poorly done. there are no reliable statistics like there are in other sports. there are no compelling storylines to follow. there is also 0 media coverage of major events.

ok i am starting to ramble. prolly no one is even reading this longish post.

brian
 

Tominator

Registered
So why isn’t chess more popular in the sense of prime time TV and large purses? The equipment and space requirements are much less expensive.

...

Chess languishes because it does not have enough appeal to attract the masses.

The major differences are commercial viability and accessibility to non-players.

In pool, unlike chess, the equipment (mainly the cue) is essential and relatively expensive. This attracts companies and therefore sponsorship dollars.

In chess, sponsorship is virtually nil and tournament organizers hold these events to make a profit only from entry fees. In the US, there is basically one major organizing body and that is the Continental Chess Association (CCA).

At the elite professional chess tournaments (held mostly in Europe), organizers look to corporations for funding such as investment firms. Orgainizers sell the image of chess as an intellectual paragon. Being associated with chess they hope will convince people that their "investment strategy" is the right one.

The other major difference is that chess requires a fairly deep understanding of the game to have any clue at all what is happening. In pool, while a casual observer may not have any idea of patterns or cue ball control, they can appreciate it when a ball goes in the pocket.
 

stuckart

Paint Dry Watching Champ
Silver Member
I liked the earlier post that compares Pool to Chess. I think this is the best time to compare Pool to Soccer (Futbol).

Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, just not the USA. Even if the US pulls off the World Cup, it will still not hold a candle to the major sports that run our country.

I hear the same things from Non Soccer Players as I do Non Pool Players. The sport is boring to watch and they just don't understand the Beauty of the game. It's always going to be that way!

How did Cue Sports become popular in other parts of the world? How does it get on TV and have countrymen talking about it, most of which can't play a lick? How is this different from Soccer?

Personally I don't see either sports becoming popular in the US. Why? Because there is no contact, there is no reason to gather the boys and get to a bar to watch the Pool Match. Even the Mosconi Cup can't get even close to being on LIVE TV. Tournaments are too long, Single Matches are too boring for most. People don't watch the TV matches because they are not LIVE and are boring.

What we need is:
  • 8-10 Teams of players, Matches Mosconi Cup Style, But the entire match between 2 teams needs to take under 3 hours. Have multiple tables, Multiple cameras, commentators that are players and can relate to the Public, Teams need sponsors, TV broadcasts need to be LIVE. Games have to relate to the public, Sorry to say, but probably Bar Box games or a Mixture. There has to be some drama thrown in, Stat's given to the Viewers, etc. etc.
  • Or, we need a Reality Show with some hustlers/players either on the Road or in some sort of challenge/vote off type show.
  • Or, Pool will just remain the same and people will continue to hope it takes off Mainstream, but I highly doubt that will happen in my lifetime.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
ways to improve the game

I don't know how to make spectators watch pool live or on TV but chess could go to Edgar Rice Burroughs's or Mel Brooks' model and pack in the people, . . . and the sponsors!

Hu
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Chess has plenty of hustlers as well. We might as well face it that pool is never going to get "big". Even poker isn't really "big" compared to the major sports. The top guy in poker has to outlast 10,000 players to win what $15 million? Most poker players stay broke but the big payday lure keeps them going.

The fact is that pool is just not that interesting for non-players UNLESS people get to know the players. Consistentcy is the key.

Out and about with Kelly Fisher fans will come up to here because they recognize her from ESPN. 10 years ago I was at a Camel Tour event in Denver and we were having breakfast at a diner across the street which also had a pool table in it. We mentioned to the bangers that there was a professional event happening across the street and one of them said is that "Asian chick" going to be in it? My neighbor also only wanted Jeanette Lee's autograpgh. THe event was a men's event and eventual winner Allen Hopkins was seated in the booth beside us and those people would not have known him from a bum on the corner.

I don't buy the idea that pool needs to get more exciting during the play. You don't see people sharking the athletes in the olympics, nor in snooker, or gymnastics. Pool just needs to find an identity and stick to it and then let the public get to know the players. And even then it will still be marginal in today's world because it's just not THAT interesting to most people. You can't make them like pool. Golf is also just not that interesting to a lot of people but they know the players they get into the stories.

Waht pool needs more than anything is a consistent tour that's on tv every month and not chopped into Rice Crispy sized pieces. THEN it has a chance.

Oh and pool does need a road trip reality show as well. I think people could get into the subculture and that might spark some more pool playing. Celebrate the glitz and the grit that is pool.
 

justnum

Redhawk PI
Silver Member
I felt too young in the pool hall playing sometimes. Most of the players in leagues are the middle-aged to semi-retired demographic. I didn't mind hanging around with older people. I did have problems with the older people that revealed their psychological problems during a match.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jason,

I've stated before why I think pool is not mainstream...because of its image created over the last 100 years. Pool was mainstream in the late 1800s and early 1900s, well at least for men. I don't know how old you are Jason but when I was a kid there were pools in every small town across the U.S. If fact, the county seat where I grew up was a town with a population of about 2,500 people. And, that town had 2 pools halls...Steven

Wrong!

Pool was a recreational activity and there are way more options for folks these days.

Also, I love pool but can't hardly 'sweat' another match for hours on end. I'd much rather do than watch and I know what's going on!
 

swrooster

A HOTDOG ROAD PLAYER!!
Silver Member
Futbol can be played in barrios, slums, goat fields, parks, backyards, school recess, at the river by drop outs,etc., you get my drift. The more people available, an open space and a ball is all that is required. Billiards on the other hand was a recreation for royality. They could afford the equipment, time and pay for the infastructure to maintain the facility. While the masses have played a few games of pool, only a handful can really play pool. Nearly every dive (bar) has a table of some sort and a few areas have established rooms that are supported by a fan base. Pool will never be mainstream, get over it. Yahtzee has a great following but will never be mainstream. Square dancing faces the same fate as well as quilting bees. Regardless of the appeal or lack thereof I will continue in my little niche and enjoy it. Since this thread started I got to thinking, I really kinda enjoy the drama and wierd antics by some of the true "characters" in the pool subculture. My wife hates it, I instigate it.....wanna play some?
 
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Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I only have this to say about the subject at hand: When I am ready to take my afternoon nap, I get in my recliner and put one of two shows on my television, golf (on weekends) or pool (which I have many matches DVR'ed for naps taken during the week). Either one of these will put me into dreamland within minutes!!!

Maniac
 

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How would you like to be able to watch & bet on a player, in a ring game? Would that spark any interest for you.

A paramutual pool could offer wagering while you watch.
 

Tramp Steamer

One Pocket enthusiast.
Silver Member
I felt too young in the pool hall playing sometimes. Most of the players in leagues are the middle-aged to semi-retired demographic. I didn't mind hanging around with older people. I did have problems with the older people that revealed their psychological problems during a match.


Old people have psychological problems? Well you could have knocked me over with a feather. That would explain why I have a room at the Shady Acres Home for Mentally Challenged One Pocket Players.
It's a real nice room to. I have a bed, a table, a chair, and a radio that I use to listen to live-stream One Pocket matches from Kolby's.
I also have a summer home in the Hampton's. :)
 
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