The value of "going home"...aka finishing your stroke!

[KMRUNOUT]

I don't want to further derail the thread, but I would just like to point out that I too have had a lesson with Scott, and found that overall it helped me. He was a nice guy, respectful, and was willing to leave alone the things I wanted to leave alone and focus on the areas I wanted to focus on (while of course providing his advice about what we should be looking at).

Lou, to be honest I can kinda see where you are coming from too...just remember that sometimes the tone of someones speech doesn't come through in type, and the attitude can be misconstrued. Also, I believe Scott believes passionately in what he teaches, and I think it might be only natural to attempt to defend it when questioned. This isn't a bad thing, so long as both the teacher and the student are able to keep what they already know from getting in the way of learning something new. My personal experience with Scott is that this is the case. I've had other instructors who were FAR more in love with their knowledge, and made sure to let me know ha ha...

Anyway, take care, and I would seriously reconsider Scott's offer. It might cost you an hour of your life, but even if you hate everything he has to say, it gives you perspective on how others in this sport think about things, which may have a value unto itself.

KMRUNOUT

 

[poolplayer2093]

After watching the WPBA matches on tv this afternoon, I thought I might offer a short treatise on the value having a 'finish point' for your stroke. This refers to a pendulum swing, and having your stroke end at the same place, every time (in a normal SOP shot situation). By having a place to take your grip hand to (usually either the bicep closing on the forearm, or the grip hand hitting the chest near the armpit)...which we SPF instructors call the "home position"...there are several benefits. First, your cuetip will finish the same distance past the CB every time, which is a visual aid to reinforce your stroke (once you understand and have measured your shooting template). Second, by having a home position for your grip hand, it is easily discerned whether or not you exerted too much grip pressure (seen by the flatness, turned under, rolled out wrist, or upwards slanted orientation of the knuckles). This can allow someone to self correct twisting the cue, at the last second (an unecessary and often fatal flaw in the accuracy of your stroke). Allison demonstrated this concept extremely well in her "tip of the day" today.

However, those benefits pale, imo, with the value of being able to master speed control on any table. When the brain has trained the arm to move in a range of motion that is the same every time (with the exception of tip position and swing speed), and that range of motion is based on how each player's arm works with their own body, the brain has a "static" movement to draw from, as a baseline. By training the bicep to repeat this baseline movement, the brain can then train the bicep to do this movement at virtually any speed...from a lag to a break (the two extremes in our normal stroke speed repertoire). Better yet, the brain can also, after training, decipher and subconsciously "call up" any of these speeds (we number them 1-10, because the human brain is already hardwired to use numerical scales and systems), at will, under pressure, in ONE try.

In watching the WPBA matches today, I noticed several positional errors that were, imo, due to not having a finish point for the player's stroke. I'm not saying you cannot develop this "feel" without the kind of swing process I'm describing...but I am saying that if you struggle with over or underrunning position, this kind of process could well help you learn to better control it...especially under pressure. Speed control is continually mentioned as something very difficult to learn...and I would agree that if you move your cue different ways, it would be much more difficult to train yourself. As Allison accurately stated, the stroke is all about letting the cue do the work!

So...this isn't directed at the expert players, who have, through whatever method, developed a consistent "feel" for speed control...but rather at the players who may struggle with inconsistent stroke speed, or who have a hard time when they put their stroke under pressure. Just a little 'food for thought'...:grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

i managed to pull my head out of my ass and start following through and finishing my stroke yesterday in the weekly tournament. it felt good to play decent for a little while. i played good for me (i play about once a week these days) right up until i dogged my brains out and played bad shape on the nine and shot it right into the rail.

still though after seeing the difference in what following through and not following through gets me i'm steady working on "going home".

next time you're in the area scott you gotta let me know. i've got a friend that could really use your help. i wouldn't mind another lesson as well

 

[lfigueroa]

To hear Scott tell you this stuff in person would be to hear it in a whole new way. I heard it (and learned it) myself earlier this month. It's good stuff.

To each his own, but I can tell you genuinely that Scott is a good guy, and is not intending to talk down to you or speak in a condescending manner.

Fair enough. But it sure comes off that way.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...You said, "I've played for 40 yrs, and my gut tells me pro players don't do this." I replied, "It's not about what pro players do...it's about what MOST poolplayers can do, to help themselves create a more accurate and consistent stroke." Then I offered, for free, to come to you, demonstrate and explain what I'm talking about, so that you can at least have a well-rounded opinion (and you don't even have to agree with it), and you don't want to hear about it, or see it. Okay. I'm sorry you cannot see this for what it is...an offer to show you something that maybe you don't know. You love pool, and have been around for a long time. I love pool and have been around for a long time. My offer is merely an exchange of ideas.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Like I said: I'm a non-believer.

That's based upon my own play, the guys I match up with, the guys I sweat on the rail, watching guys at every level at tournaments like the DCC for over 10 years and watching the pros, most recently at the US Open 10Ball in Vegas (I know, I know).

Pool is not all robotics -- yes, there is a high level of programming and repeatability. But there s also a touch of artistry and what I've observed is that the guys that excel, or even just perform consistently, are the not the ones that so much poke at the ball like a machine as the ones who "dab it." Now that my be a subtle distinction, but I feel it touches upon the issue of finishing your stroke and how you do that. IMO, that means that you adjust and calibrate your delivery and sometimes you're going to end up in different finishing positions. I think that that can be highly desirable.

That's it and we can agree to disagree. I think you've got a nice pet theory and maybe it'll help some. Maybe it won't.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

let's surmise shall we...
If only one person takes umbrage (personal or otherwise) with what is put out on a AZ thread I would consider that a very successful thread.
Thanks for sharing Scott, incorporating immediately!
Tommy

...unless you're the one person being talked down to like a red-haired step-child ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, to be honest I can kinda see where you are coming from too...just remember that sometimes the tone of someones speech doesn't come through in type, and the attitude can be misconstrued.

KMRUNOUT

Thanks, KMRUNOUT, now I know I'm not totally nuts on this point.

And I do understand how things can be misinterpreted on screen. However, as someone who, in a past life, was an instructor who flew all over the country giving one-on-one lessons to CEO-types, as well as big honking seminar presentations, I believe it is incumbent upon the instructor to absolutely ensure that misinterpretation does not happen when engaged in their field of instruction. And what I see on my screen is an instructor who doesn't know how to communicate without putting on an attitude, or at least cannot communicate in a manner that precludes being perceived that way. I don't care how passionate you are about your subject, if you're instructor talking about your subject -- that should never happen. If it does, that's a big problem.

Lou Figueroa
been there
done that

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Pool is not all robotics -- yes, there is a high level of programming and repeatability.

i sort of liken all of this to golf. look at Arnold Palmer's swing. look at Lee Trevino's swing. they were both not exactly textbook, but still two of the greatest players of all time.

to me you have to do what is natural for you. an instructor should tweak what comes natural. i had one instructor show me his way and said thats what i need to do. i kept asking "You Mean Like This?" because there was no way i could shoot like that.

i am firmly convinced delivering that cue tip straight through the aim line repeatedly is the #1 most important thing. how you do that is up to you. after all, those balls have no idea of where your arm, leg, elbow, fingers, eyes, etc, etc are at that moment.

DCP

 

[lfigueroa]

i sort of liken all of this to golf. look at Arnold Palmer's swing. look at Lee Trevino's swing. they were both not exactly textbook, but still two of the greatest players of all time.

to me you have to do what is natural for you. an instructor should tweak what comes natural. i had one instructor show me his way and said thats what i need to do. i kept asking "You Mean Like This?" because there was no way i could shoot like that.

i am firmly convinced delivering that cue tip straight through the aim line repeatedly is the #1 most important thing. how you do that is up to you. after all, those balls have no idea of where your arm, leg, elbow, fingers, eyes, etc, etc are at that moment.

DCP

I would agree.

We have a well-known instructor around here that teaches every student to finish every shot with their cue tip diving into the cloth. I have seen soooo many of his students doing this you can pick them out from across the pool hall, because no one else does that. IMO, that one little bit of instruction does more to frustrate and impede their progress than much else. In my case, when I'm shooting my best I often have the cue finishing high on some, but not all, shots. Or finish short on a punch shot, or long on touchy follow. As you say, what's important is what's happening at the moment of impact.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Scott Lee]

Lou...Funny how you're the ONLY one who thinks I don't communicate well. Also interesting to note that a process that has worked wonders for many 1000's of students over the course of the last 20+ years, you'd have no interest in learning about...preferring instead to rest on "well my way has worked well for me, and there can't be anything else that could possibly work!" Since you're calling yourself at least a 'former instructor', you already know that you can't help someone who doesn't want help. That's okay...we can still be civil, and agree to disagree.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks, KMRUNOUT, now I know I'm not totally nuts on this point.

And I do understand how things can be misinterpreted on screen. However, as someone who, in a past life, was an instructor who flew all over the country giving one-on-one lessons to CEO-types, as well as big honking seminar presentations, I believe it is incumbent upon the instructor to absolutely ensure that misinterpretation does not happen when engaged in their field of instruction. And what I see on my screen is an instructor who doesn't know how to communicate without putting on an attitude, or at least cannot communicate in a manner that precludes being perceived that way. I don't care how passionate you are about your subject, if you're instructor talking about your subject -- that should never happen. If it does, that's a big problem.

Lou Figueroa
been there
done that

 

[duckie]

let's surmise shall we...
If only one person takes umbrage (personal or otherwise) with what is put out on a AZ thread I would consider that a very successful thread.
Thanks for sharing Scott, incorporating immediately!
Tommy

Actually, there are more than one, we just don't post as not to upset the apple cart.

Beside, Lou is doing just fine, so no need to add anything more.

Well cept maybe you guys need to watch some 3 cushion players if you really want to know bout how to stroke and real use of english.

 

[Scott Lee]

Greg...Again, interesting to note that the overall theme of this thread is that there is no "one size fits all" concept, and that IF you're struggling with consistency in your stroke, here is an alternative approach that has proven benefits for 1000's of players. If you like what you do already, stick with it. I agree with you, that a good 3-C player has a marvelous stroke! I've also worked with some 3-C players who found improvement using a pendulum swing. I have never been one to try to "shove my way down your throat". I am not known as a "my way or the highway" type of person...as many posts in this thread support. Again, in the end, it's different strokes for different folks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Actually, there are more than one, we just don't post as not to upset the apple cart.

Beside, Lou is doing just fine, so no need to add anything more.

Well cept maybe you guys need to watch some 3 cushion players if you really want to know bout how to stroke and real use of english.

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...Funny how you're the ONLY one who thinks I don't communicate well. Also interesting to note that a process that has worked wonders for many 1000's of students over the course of the last 20+ years, you'd have no interest in learning about...preferring instead to rest on "well my way has worked well for me, and there can't be anything else that could possibly work!" Since you're calling yourself at least a 'former instructor', you already know that you can't help someone who doesn't want help. That's okay...we can still be civil, and agree to disagree.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Here's another example of poor communication skills: saying, in quotes no less, that I said or thought, "well my way has worked well for me, and there can't be anything else that could possibly work!" Putting words in another person's mouth is not too cool, in particular when they didn't say or imply that.

Just clarify on this point, I don't like your "instructional" style, as on display here, so I prefer to pass. The point in discussion has nothing to do with it. Hell, I even spent an hour with Geno a few weeks ago, even though I had serious misgivings about what he's selling. The difference is that Geno listens and doesn't speak down to you, so it was a good exchange, even though we ended up not agreeing. You should give this approach a try sometime.

So see, you were wrong and you do have a communication "issue" that apparently you needed someone with the cojones, experience, education, and credentials to point out. (No, no. Don't thank me

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Actually, there are more than one, we just don't post as not to upset the apple cart.

Beside, Lou is doing just fine, so no need to add anything more.

Well cept maybe you guys need to watch some 3 cushion players if you really want to know bout how to stroke and real use of english.

Oh yeah, the 3C guys (where's Mr. Bill when you need him

I remember spending a short session with Harry Sims discussing ascending and descending strokes, many years ago and how it affected billiard shots. It sounded crazy, but Harry showed me how it worked. Very illuminating.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Greg...Again, interesting to note that the overall theme of this thread is that there is no "one size fits all" concept, and that IF you're struggling with consistency in your stroke, here is an alternative approach that has proven benefits for 1000's of players. If you like what you do already, stick with it. I agree with you, that a good 3-C player has a marvelous stroke! I've also worked with some 3-C players who found improvement using a pendulum swing. I have never been one to try to "shove my way down your throat". I am not known as a "my way or the highway" type of person...as many posts in this thread support. Again, in the end, it's different strokes for different folks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Just one more thing: just because you've taught something to 1000, or 10000 guys, doesn't mean they all benefited from what it was you showed them. That's pure hubris.

All it means is that you showed them something and maybe some of them gave you positive feedback at the time. Maybe a few even came back and said it was a good thing. But maybe some, or most, or all your students jettisoned that finishing position thing right after or not too long thereafter spending time with you. So unless you're telling me you have a system where you follow up with every single student weeks, months, and years after their lesson to verify that they are still using and benefiting from every single little thing you shared with them way back when, I'm calling BS.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mike in MN]

Here's another example of poor communication skills: saying, in quotes no less, that I said or thought, "well my way has worked well for me, and there can't be anything else that could possibly work!" Putting words in another person's mouth is not too cool, in particular when they didn't say or imply that.

Just clarify on this point, I don't like your "instructional" style, as on display here, so I prefer to pass. The point in discussion has nothing to do with it. Hell, I even spent an hour with Geno a few weeks ago, even though I had serious misgivings about what he's selling. The difference is that Geno listens and doesn't speak down to you, so it was a good exchange, even though we ended up not agreeing. You should give this approach a try sometime.

So see, you were wrong and you do have a communication "issue" that apparently you needed someone with the cojones, experience, education, and credentials to point out. (No, no. Don't thank me

Lou Figueroa

How many different ways can a person tell you, sincerely and politely, that they aren't trying to demean you or anything you've already learned?

Scott had said that he simply wanted to discuss something with you that may help you learn something new. He never said you had to buy into it, he never said you had to use it. He simply wanted to speak with you. All you had to do was say, "No thanks" and it would have been over. But you're continuing to stir things up.

In my opinion as a third party observer in this conversation, he has not said one condescending thing to you. Yet, post after post, you continue to accuse him as such. It's just boggling my mind.

 

[lfigueroa]

How many different ways can a person tell you, sincerely and politely, that they aren't trying to demean you or anything you've already learned?

Scott had said that he simply wanted to discuss something with you that may help you learn something new. He never said you had to buy into it, he never said you had to use it. He simply wanted to speak with you. All you had to do was say, "No thanks" and it would have been over. But you're continuing to stir things up.

In my opinion as a third party observer in this conversation, he has not said one condescending thing to you. Yet, post after post, you continue to accuse him as such. It's just boggling my mind.

I did say no thanks -- I told him a couple of times I was passing on his offer to spend time with him on this. To use Scott's style: What part of that did you have trouble understanding?

So, how did he respond? By portraying my position was "well my way has worked well for me, and there can't be anything else that could possibly work!"

Call it what you will, that's some crazy ca-ca right there.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mike in MN]

I did say no thanks -- I told him a couple of times I was passing on his offer to spend time with him on this. To use Scott's style: What part of that did you have trouble understanding?

So, how did he respond? By portraying my position was "well my way has worked well for me, and there can't be anything else that could possibly work!"

Call it what you will, that's some crazy ca-ca right there.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, I just think you jumped on the defensive wayyyy too early on in this conversation. Agree to disagree I guess.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

all this bantering back and forth has lit a flame under me. i think i am going to use my digital camera tonight and see what my upper arm/elbow is actually doing. i almost positive it is still dropping/collapsing.

and its nice to see others get into the bickering back and forth game. i mean, its not nice, but at least i know i am not the only one along these lines.

DCP

 

[luckwouldhaveit]

i still struggle with those long straight draw shots. just wondering if my bridge is a possible flaw.
DCP

Make sure you follow through - it's pretty common to choke up and punch on those types of shots. For a long distance draw powershot I think it's pretty natural for your stroke to force your elbow to drop. Following through is a lot more important than not dropping your elbow imho. Just my 2c

 

[Cuaba]

Follow Through

When I break, I follow through until the wrap is in my bridge hand. How's this?