The Willie Hoppe Story

Deliberate safeties

What no one has mentioned is that in Hoppe's time you were allowed to play deliberate safeties (just drive one ball to a rail, and were allowed to do it once.). Two in a row lost a point. Today's players are not allowed to play any deliberate safeties. Starting off on the end rail with the other two balls ten feet away would slow averages down considerably.

the Beard
 
freddy the beard said:
What no one has mentioned is that in Hoppe's time you were allowed to play deliberate safeties (just drive one ball to a rail, and were allowed to do it once.). Two in a row lost a point. Today's players are not allowed to play any deliberate safeties. Starting off on the end rail with the other two balls ten feet away would slow averages down considerably.

the Beard
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Beard-

If they were not allowed to play safeties... could Hoppe compete with today's players? Just curious to hear your thoughts-

Dave
 
of course future generations will improve the sport. Old methods are learned and improved upon, knowledge of certain shots is passed down while todays players are still learning more, and equipment improves. The only thing that doesnt change is the natural ability of the players. Hoppe may have had as much talent as Sayginer or Blomdahl, its just these guys today can do more with it.
 
mosconiac said:
I finally got a chance to sit down and watch the vid. Thanks so much for posting it up, Larry. I had no idea how sidearmed & "wristy" Hoppe was.
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A trait of almost all that start very young as they're not tall enough for the conventional stance. IE Keith Macready, among many others.
 
I would guess...yes

SpiderWebComm said:
Beard-

If they were not allowed to play safeties... could Hoppe compete with today's players? Just curious to hear your thoughts-

Dave
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There is no way to know for sure, but I would certainly guess, yes. Hoppe, Cochrane or Schaefer could compete with todays field providing they had time to acclimate themselves to the new, high scoring equipment. I was brought up on the old style billiard equipment, you needed a much better stroke to play on the older, slower, cloth and cushions. Plus the temperature changes would affect the speed and play of the tables even as the day wore on. Heated slate gives the same playing conditions continuously.

the Beard
 
Rich93...Definitely no "attitude" on my part. You're correct, and I probably overstated. However, averages for top players, in some final and semi-final matches have seen those 3+ averages...so maybe not for the whole tournament. My mistake. I take nothing away from Hoppe. He was simply amazing, for his time (which, as mentioned was a long 50+ years). At the same time, with better equipment, and heated tables, 3-C averages have improved considerably in the past 30 years...long after Hoppe was gone. I still believe Hoppe, imo, in his prime, would not run over players like Seyginer, Blomdahl, Jaspers, et al.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Rich93 said:
Well, there are a few mistakes here, as well as some "attitude".

See this link for some actual data on tournament grand averages. As you can see, the winners of the most recent five tournaments had tournament averages of 1.729, 1.782, 1.779, 1.772, and 1.695, not, as you say, "at least three times" an average of 1.000.

You are probably thinking of Dick Jaspers in the 2008 European Three Cushion Championship, where he averaged 5.625 in the final match against Torbjorn Blomdahl. But that was for a set of three 15 point games. Extraordinary, but still just a short match (for these guys). Jaspers' tournament average was 2.169.

As for why averages have improved so much, better equipment (heated tables, very fast cloth and cushions) have led to more emphasis on offense and less on defense. Hoppe tried to leave his opponent safe in case he missed; today's players don't think about missing nearly as often.

Still, it's a fantastic increase in results for a game that doesn't depend on athletic conditioning. But let's give Hoppe his due - he was the best (or one of the two best) in his game, and over a period from age 18 to 65 (when he retired).
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If they were not allowed to play safeties... could Hoppe compete with today's players? Just curious to hear your thoughts-

Dave[/QUOTE]

It is really not fair to compare eras. In every field of endeavor where records can be measured by time, length, weight, number, etc., today's athletes (for whatever reasons--training, nutrition, equipment) are superior. Just look at olympic records. Where results can be quantified, old records don't hold up. Jesse Owens' long/broadjump 1935 record was one of the longest lasting and many said it would never be broken and it wasn't until 1960, but now the current record is almost 3 feet longer.

Swimming, shot put, speed skating, marksmanship, weightlifting, the list goes on. It is just the way performance evolves, always for the better in the long run. You might find an exception or two along the way but some of those are unique situations. For example the 100 yard dash is no longer run, it is the 100 meter dash.

Hoppe WAS the best.
 
bob said:
It is really not fair to compare eras. In every field of endeavor where records can be measured by time, length, weight, number, etc., today's athletes (for whatever reasons--training, nutrition, equipment) are superior. Just look at olympic records. Where results can be quantified, old records don't hold up. Jesse Owens' long/broadjump 1935 record was one of the longest lasting and many said it would never be broken and it wasn't until 1960, but now the current record is almost 3 feet longer.

Swimming, shot put, speed skating, marksmanship, weightlifting, the list goes on. It is just the way performance evolves, always for the better in the long run. You might find an exception or two along the way but some of those are unique situations. For example the 100 yard dash is no longer run, it is the 100 meter dash.

Hoppe WAS the best.
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What about Mosconi's 526 run? 1954
 
kind of off topic, but i always thought it would be cool if someone made a movie about him.
 
I think the record book actually separates the era's in billiards as before phenolic balls/ after phenolic balls.

Intentional safeties of course changes everything.

The old timers were phenomenal at straight rail, balkline, etc...I'm sure they could hold their own with todays champs given the same opportunities.
 
burns420 said:
kind of off topic, but i always thought it would be cool if someone made a movie about him.
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Based on what Danny McGoorty says about him (see Bob Byrne's book McGoorty), a movie on Willie Hoppe would be kind of boring. He was a bit stuffy - didn't drink, smoke, gamble or (so far as we know) have girlfriends in every city. He always acted courteously and correctly and didn't pal around with the colorful characters of the game. His life was billiards from start to finish. He was married but I don't know if he had any children.

Now, a movie about Danny McGoorty - you might have something there. A real character - a hustling, drunken womanizer for most of his life, but with an amazing capacity to see himself clearly, at least at the end. Of course, he was no match for Hoppe on the table. Read his book - it's better than a movie.
 
Jeff said:
What about Mosconi's 526 run? 1954
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This is exactly what I mean about situational exceptions. Mosconi's record, as I understand it, was set on an 8-foot table with 5 inch pockets. I don't know any world beaters who play straight pool on an eight-foot table with buckets for pockets. And although 14.1 seems to be gaining in popularity now, it has been, up until very recently, pretty much dormant since Mosconi's record era.

I wouldn't book any bets that 526 won't be broken in the next year or two and that will almost certainly be on a 9-foot table with tighter pockets.
 
Rich93 said:
Based on what Danny McGoorty says about him (see Bob Byrne's book McGoorty), a movie on Willie Hoppe would be kind of boring. He was a bit stuffy - didn't drink, smoke, gamble or (so far as we know) have girlfriends in every city. He always acted courteously and correctly and didn't pal around with the colorful characters of the game. His life was billiards from start to finish. He was married but I don't know if he had any children.

Now, a movie about Danny McGoorty - you might have something there. A real character - a hustling, drunken womanizer for most of his life, but with an amazing capacity to see himself clearly, at least at the end. Of course, he was no match for Hoppe on the table. Read his book - it's better than a movie.
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Sorry, I meant a movie about Mosconi, not Hoppe. I have McGoorty and its definitely a great story.
 
freddy the beard said:
There is no way to know for sure, but I would certainly guess, yes. Hoppe, Cochrane or Schaefer could compete with todays field providing they had time to acclimate themselves to the new, high scoring equipment. I was brought up on the old style billiard equipment, you needed a much better stroke to play on the older, slower, cloth and cushions. Plus the temperature changes would affect the speed and play of the tables even as the day wore on. Heated slate gives the same playing conditions continuously.

the Beard
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When fast Euro style cloth hit NYC area the late Abe Rosen a 3-c player from Hoppe's era said he wold have given Hoppe a year on the fast cloth and he would avg an easy 2+ and Rosen was a knowledgeable player.
 
maldito said:
When fast Euro style cloth hit NYC area the late Abe Rosen a 3-c player from Hoppe's era said he wold have given Hoppe a year on the fast cloth and he would avg an easy 2+ and Rosen was a knowledgeable player.
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The physical aspects of pool are having the eye and the touch.

Both of these are still the same and will never change. The equipment will and has changed, but having the eye and the touch never will.

Pool is one of the few sports where a person from the past, like Hoppe, could and would compete with the best of today.
 
maldito said:
Anyone know what size mm tip Hoppe used for three cushions - from the
movie it looks like a 13mm or more.
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Hoppe's book indicated that a cue should have a tip .5 inches in diameter, which I think is 12.5 mm. That is not a guarantee of what he played with, but I suspect players from that era played with tips along those lines.
 
So I just stumbled upon this video on YouTube, and then found it has been shared and discussed in this thread. I bump it for people like me who missed it as it is a great video.

Also, not only is Willie's side arm noticeable, it is interesting to note that he believed the stroke should come from the shoulder, not from the elbow.
 
Hoppe

Turn it around. All the talk has been,can the players of yesterday play with the players of today. Can the players of today go back and play with the conditions back then; (sticks,cloth,slate,rules,other conditions I cant think of). Let's hear talk about that. Thanks
 
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