Thomas Wayne lose his diginity on Cuezilla.
- Thread starter bobroberts
- Start date
John,
I appreciate the effort in explaining this. What you said better than I basically talks about the 3 axis idea, which I get. I am a little confused what the 4th axis could be, and how it would be used. So say you have X, Rotary, Z (up and down of either the work or the tool)....what else would you have? Y (side to side) *in addition* to rotary?
Thanks for the help, I'm eager to hear Bill's answer too.
KMRUNOUT
This is difficult to explain, but I will try.
When machining 3-axis it is normal to use X, Y or (rotary axis A or W) and Z if your machine will allow that.
This movement will produce code that ALWAYS has the center of the cutting tool pointing at the center of rotation (ie. the center of the cue).
This is sufficient for the majority of cue machining.
Sometimes however you might design a cue that can not be built by these conventional methods. For these designs it might be necessary to move the tool in the Y axis at the same time as the other 3 axis are moving.
An example would be if you had several lines of silver close together (.001).
If you used the conventional method described with the tool center pointing to the center of the cue you would under cut the adjacent lines of silver.
While this may not seem a problem try it and you will find that the silver inlay lines will just come out of the cue because of the heat from machining. This is a simple example where it is necessary to move the center of the tool OFF the center line of the cue so that you can machine parallel to the existing inlay.
I know this is hard to follow (It still is for me) but if you can visualize what is happening then you will be able to see why true 4 axis machining is necessary in these conditions.
It also permits many other types of designs that are simply not possible with axis substitution.
The main idea in cue-making is to create the design in your mind and then find the tools necessary to create it as a cue.
When I say I spent 100K on the software and hardware to make some of the designs I see in my head, I am not kidding.
Perhaps I should have my head examined?
Bill Stroud
I appreciate the effort in explaining this. What you said better than I basically talks about the 3 axis idea, which I get. I am a little confused what the 4th axis could be, and how it would be used. So say you have X, Rotary, Z (up and down of either the work or the tool)....what else would you have? Y (side to side) *in addition* to rotary?
Thanks for the help, I'm eager to hear Bill's answer too.
KMRUNOUT
This is difficult to explain, but I will try.
When machining 3-axis it is normal to use X, Y or (rotary axis A or W) and Z if your machine will allow that.
This movement will produce code that ALWAYS has the center of the cutting tool pointing at the center of rotation (ie. the center of the cue).
This is sufficient for the majority of cue machining.
Sometimes however you might design a cue that can not be built by these conventional methods. For these designs it might be necessary to move the tool in the Y axis at the same time as the other 3 axis are moving.
An example would be if you had several lines of silver close together (.001).
If you used the conventional method described with the tool center pointing to the center of the cue you would under cut the adjacent lines of silver.
While this may not seem a problem try it and you will find that the silver inlay lines will just come out of the cue because of the heat from machining. This is a simple example where it is necessary to move the center of the tool OFF the center line of the cue so that you can machine parallel to the existing inlay.
I know this is hard to follow (It still is for me) but if you can visualize what is happening then you will be able to see why true 4 axis machining is necessary in these conditions.
It also permits many other types of designs that are simply not possible with axis substitution.
The main idea in cue-making is to create the design in your mind and then find the tools necessary to create it as a cue.
When I say I spent 100K on the software and hardware to make some of the designs I see in my head, I am not kidding.
Perhaps I should have my head examined?
Bill Stroud
Bill,
I appreciate the response. In replying to John B's post, I took a guess and pretty much said what you said, except where I suggested the 4th axis was the tool height, you said it was the position relative to center on the y axis. So I wasn't *too* far off lol. I totally follow you. I could see how that would add a considerable amount of effort and skill to the programming of the machine to accomplish the vision you have using those techniques.
Your responses have been pretty reasonable...I guess things just went off the rails when Thomas Wayne laid into Mike Lambros. Whether Tom was right or wrong is a totally different topic than whether he was respectful and diplomatic. With all his knowledge about machining and cue building, its too bad he couldn't have found it within himself to begin with, "Mike, with all due respect, I don't see how you could have done that work with the techniques you claim." I'm sure you get the idea. It sounds like Tom is a superb cue maker, and I'm all for standing up for the truth. But no amount of being right about something gives one license to present their rightness in a, well for lack of a better word..."jerky" way lol. I must say though, I sure am interested to see who is right...
Thanks for your reply..it helps me understand better!
KMRUNOUT
Edit: Actually I reread my post in reply to John B and I *did* ask if the 4th axis was the Y position in addition to the rotary. I guess I understood better than I thought. Thanks again!
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The first thing Thomas took umbrage with was Lambros' statement "The cue design is an extreme application of 4th axis inlay and rotary engraving, most of which had never been done prior to this cue."
I understood what this meant only because of previous discussions with Mike, but it was clear to me that Mike was talking about doing such a project with abalone into ivory with no hiding into ebony. But, this wasn't clear in the original statement. It wasn't clear on the subsequent edit either.
Should Thomas have taken umbrage? Absolutely. Thomas Wayne is the clear master of multi-axis cue art. If he built a cue with these techniques, then I have no doubt the site will give him his fair and due recognition. I'm not sure why a retraction would be needed.
This was Thomas Wayne throwing down that gauntlet on 4th axis, forcing the conversation that way.
"any intelligent reader will realize that this cue contains NO 4-axis inlay work"
I haven't seen Thomas say anything about "true 4th axis," so I wouldn't place that one on him. But, enough other cuemakers have piped in to say "true 4th axis" that it now is the term debated.
So I think there are two legitimate debates: Was this done with 4th axis technology and was Lambros the first to do most of these techniques (can we say abalone into ivory, no ebony)?
It seems we would need to get past the first question or else the second (which was the first, ironically) is nolo contendere.
Fred
the hell with all the bickering.... what's up with Fatboy's posts? I'm about this close to calling his posts here "downright fraudulent"
cuz reading his posts over there, spelled all correctly and everything, and his over here, where he himself, makes fun of his posts, I can't put the two together as the same man
Read his post below..... Moreover??Have you ever heard Fatboy use that word here?:grin:
its just a shame that people with the same interest are at war, reminds me of the middle east peace process. LOL. Moreover Deno decids to put a cue up a second time in the hopes for more “quality” discussion(thats my guess) and its nothing more than a platform for a blowhard to use to promote his cause, and in that process has lost the respect of more than one person i’m sure.
thanks Deno for everything.
oh, on topic.... nice cue!
LOL:grin::grin:
In retrospect, perhaps I shouldnt have made any posts on Cuezilla, as the topic of the 4th axis is way beyond my limited comprehension of the said topic. I'm a layman at best and should abstain from engaging in conversation with highly educated people.
But really if he is so smart how come he aint rich???
:wink:If I had a TW cue, after seeing his colors(I really believe all peoples true colors come out in time and much faster online) I'd sell it. If I had $500,000 worth of his cues-I'd have a sit down with they guy. He is acting like Eddy Wheat-sure TW has built some amazing cues, but that hasnt stopped him from shitting where he eats. I have lost all respect for him, and dont give a rats ass of his opinion of me-and how often do I say that? I do my best to be likeable to everyone(this is the exception).
How disappointed this makes me......
I have to say I don't really care about the tiff going on b/t these two cue makers.....
Just like I don't think you can earn respect on a pool table, i don't think you can do it either building cues......but reading some of the cutthroat comments I have certainly LOST MUCH RESPECT for TW.
If he was so much better than that then he shouldn't have stooped down to that level.
I've always TW's work but when I saw him sh*t talking D.P.K. i had to laugh my arse off at him......just one of the stupidest things ever said in the history of cue making.........Dogging the mans talents and his mentality......T.W. ONLY WISHES he was a nuts as Dave. If David were not David then all the things he did for the industry would have not happened imop. He's eccentric and thats what made him great and gave him the insight and ability to develop, learn and produce the things he has and teach other cuemakers.
We could rip off a big list of people that would not be in the business if it were not for DPK....
David could dig inlays in a cue with a icecream spoon while wearing a straight jacket....and no one would care less b/c everyone knows his cues eat thunder and crap lightning......
To steal a line from TCOM: Compared to D.P.K. hes what "the end of the earth?"
all i read after that sounded like charlie browns teacher....
wa wa wa wa wa wa wa.........
How much has D.P.K done for cue building? How much has Thomas Wayne did.....its not even close....CASE CLOSED
Oh and in my opinion......THE ART IS IN THE F*KING HIT!
Who gives a dam about pretty if it hits like a pansy.
what a child,
-Grey Ghost
I have to say I don't really care about the tiff going on b/t these two cue makers.....
Just like I don't think you can earn respect on a pool table, i don't think you can do it either building cues......but reading some of the cutthroat comments I have certainly LOST MUCH RESPECT for TW.
If he was so much better than that then he shouldn't have stooped down to that level.
I've always TW's work but when I saw him sh*t talking D.P.K. i had to laugh my arse off at him......just one of the stupidest things ever said in the history of cue making.........Dogging the mans talents and his mentality......T.W. ONLY WISHES he was a nuts as Dave. If David were not David then all the things he did for the industry would have not happened imop. He's eccentric and thats what made him great and gave him the insight and ability to develop, learn and produce the things he has and teach other cuemakers.
We could rip off a big list of people that would not be in the business if it were not for DPK....
David could dig inlays in a cue with a icecream spoon while wearing a straight jacket....and no one would care less b/c everyone knows his cues eat thunder and crap lightning......
To steal a line from TCOM: Compared to D.P.K. hes what "the end of the earth?"
all i read after that sounded like charlie browns teacher....
wa wa wa wa wa wa wa.........
How much has D.P.K done for cue building? How much has Thomas Wayne did.....its not even close....CASE CLOSED
Oh and in my opinion......THE ART IS IN THE F*KING HIT!
Who gives a dam about pretty if it hits like a pansy.
what a child,
-Grey Ghost
This will sum it up. Best post of them all in either forum.
TW may be passionate and intelligent, but a diplomat he is not.
Right, I was just explaining the 3-axis as used on the laser and mentioning that it's possible to do 360 degree inlays using a 3-axis laser - actually what I wanted to say is that it's possible to do them using a 2 axis laser.
I too did not fully understand what 4-axis as Bill means it (or as anyone else means it).
I have seen lasers and endmills mounted on robot arms which are then used to create intricate 3d sculptures with forms nested in forms similar to the Chinese Ivory balls.
I thought that this is 4th axis. Upon hearing Bill's description I understand it more when he speaks of cutting pockets where the center of the cutting tool is NOT pointed at the center of the work.
I can say this - in 1997ish give or take a year or so Thomas was walking around the expo with a butt sleeve made of ebony and maple if I remember right. Two unbroken cylinders with the ebony flowing into the maple with I think 4 keyhole shapes. I could draw it or some facsimile of it but the point is that the shapes were done in such a way as to be a complete mystery as to HOW Thomas was able to take two unbroken cylinders and make them into one unbroken cylinder with interlocking shapes. Believe me when I tell you that I doubt there were more than a couple walking around the show who could have said how it was done. I wasn't one of them.
As someone who is also very passionate about the field he works in and is always pushing the limits of what it technically possible, AND as someone whose opinions on such has drawn fire many times I can sympathize with Thomas' point of view here.
Thomas Wayne + Forums is not a good mix and never has been.
The Lambros cue is amazingly beautiful. I think that perhaps Thomas should have taken his concerns to Mike first about the way the work was described. Perhaps then they could have worked it out so that they are both on the same page concerning how certain techniques are described. After so many years of beating my head against the keyboard with the thought of "why can't they see it?" I just decided to let it go because at the end of the day 99% of the people considering a product don't honestly care how it was made. Describing the technique invariably leads to things like this where it's a spec war.
And at the end of the day everything is laid to waste after both sides say and do things that they shouldn't have.
This is the problem when typing replaces the phone call. Can't unring the bell once you lay into someone in front of the whole world.
When i started this thread i wasn't sure where it would go. At the time it was late at night and i read TW's post condemning M.L. I was put off.
Now that i did start it i am happy to say that it took on an educational tone and a lot of people have learned some things they never would have.
I thank all who took part in this thread,and that most comments were not of the bashing nature. More of being put off by a supposedly respected cuemaker. A learning experience never the less.:thumbup2:
Now that i did start it i am happy to say that it took on an educational tone and a lot of people have learned some things they never would have.
I thank all who took part in this thread,and that most comments were not of the bashing nature. More of being put off by a supposedly respected cuemaker. A learning experience never the less.:thumbup2:
LOL:grin::grin:
In retrospect, perhaps I shouldnt have made any posts on Cuezilla, as the topic of the 4th axis is way beyond my limited comprehension of the said topic. I'm a layman at best and should abstain from engaging in conversation with highly educated people.
But really if he is so smart how come he aint rich???
If I had a TW cue, after seeing his colors(I really believe all peoples true colors come out in time and much faster online) I'd sell it. If I had $500,000 worth of his cues-I'd have a sit down with they guy. He is acting like Eddy Wheat-sure TW has built some amazing cues, but that hasnt stopped him from shitting where he eats. I have lost all respect for him, and dont give a rats ass of his opinion of me-and how often do I say that? I do my best to be likeable to everyone(this is the exception).
I completely agree my friend.....You are by no means as outspoken as say ME lol, it takes alot for you to give a negative opinion of someone as you are def one of the classiest acts around.
I was talking to Joel just now on the phone and he told me this:
"Bad mistake to talk about people.....Big people talk about ideas. Small people talk about others."
its a shame really,
-Grey Ghost
Internet train wrecks are the best.
I am going to have to think that TW has just a bit more experience with this as it pertains to cues.
One thing that sticks out is someone needs to attend Forum Moderating classes.
JV (---knows the only true inlay is a slotted diamond
I am going to have to think that TW has just a bit more experience with this as it pertains to cues.
One thing that sticks out is someone needs to attend Forum Moderating classes.
JV (---knows the only true inlay is a slotted diamond
Suggestion....next installment on Cuezilla....another Thomas Wayne. “Dem Bones” was certainly beyond nice, but let's see what else comes to the table. Into the octagon, and "let's get it on!" Geez.
Geez.
Nobody questioned Mike's intelligence. I'm sure he's a smart guy. I've interacted quite a lot with Thomas Wayne over the years. Trust me, he too is a smart guy. Yes as smart as scientists at JPL or Los Alamos. This is not really the issue.
Deadliest Cuemaker, Lambros versus Wayne
Sean,
Have you seen that show "Deadliest Warrior". They do things like CIA versus KGB, Atilla the Hun versdus Alexander the Great? (you can google it and watch reruns on the net - it's on Spike and it's a kick). The computer decides on who wins because each weapon or tool is measured against the opponent's.
Anyway, maybe we need Dealiest Cuemaker, Thomas Wayne versus Mike Lambros.
Thomas Wayne is armed with with a Mac and a 5 Axis Cam Express Version 7, a Binks spray gun with automotive polyurethane with a buffing wheel, a 3/8 X 10 double headed furniture screw, Gabon Ebony, and Elforyn Ivory substitute.
Mike Lambros has a 3 Axis Centroid, a PC with a Pentium, UV spray system with pumice, a radial pin, a real ivory tusk, and abalone.
---- The battle begins. both the CNC jockeys mount their stock as they begin to make a cue.
Lambros has his set up in 30 minutes and is milling on his trusty 3 Axis Centroid, with ivory filings and dust filling the air while Wayne is still reading the manual to figure out where the "on" button is located on his super complicated Cam Express.
Finally Wayne gets his stock mounted and the 5 axis Cam Express roars to life, but Lambros is almost done pushing his slow but reliable 3 axis machine to the limit.
- Then - disater strikes, as the Lambros PC succumbs to a renegade worm virus he got surfing -shall we say - questionable internet sites. He sheepishly explains that he thought "live cam" was a new 4 axis CNC router!
Anyway, Lambros downloads the fix and it's back to the races. Both cue makers pull their cues off to cut the inlays. Wayne's powerful machine is set too high and too deep, and turns his Elforyn into a steaming pile of silly putty.
-- Meanwhile, Lambros comes to the grim realization that 3 axis has it's limits. He is going to have to do the unthinkable - something he's never actually attemped before and no cue maker has attemped in the last 10 years. He's going to have to sand the cue by hand! He has read about this grim deed but is not sure exactly what to do. He slowly rubs the abalone and realizes that sanding is not that bad of a thing and in fact, it gave him a strange sense of pleasure - like he himself had done something, something good!
- Wayne goes to insert the 3/8 X 10 and realizes the damn die was cut too small, so he crossthreads it and has to add a phenolic insert -oh well, it's a black cue, who cares? It's only a 20K cue anyway. Meanwhile Lambros has the more expensive and foolproof radial pin, which fits perfect every time as long as you don't go for the stinkin' copies (shame on you who buy those, you know who you are too).
- They both finish the cues in about the same time before Wayne reaches for his Binks. He knows that he has to mix the automotive clear 'hot" or the Lambros UV system will eat his lunch. Wayne throws on 3 coats and catches air bubbles - he thinks he may be able to buff through them. He blames it on buzz cause his mask has a couple of cracks. Meanwhile, the Lambros cue is basking in the UV radiation, glowing purple like George Hamilton on a bad day. Lamrbos is putting on the water and pumice and Wayne is buffing away.
And the winner is.....
Stay tuned for part two, and now a word from our sponsor.
Suggestion....next installment on Cuezilla....another Thomas Wayne. “Dem Bones” was certainly beyond nice, but let's see what else comes to the table. Into the octagon, and "let's get it on!"
Sean,
Have you seen that show "Deadliest Warrior". They do things like CIA versus KGB, Atilla the Hun versdus Alexander the Great? (you can google it and watch reruns on the net - it's on Spike and it's a kick). The computer decides on who wins because each weapon or tool is measured against the opponent's.
Anyway, maybe we need Dealiest Cuemaker, Thomas Wayne versus Mike Lambros.
Thomas Wayne is armed with with a Mac and a 5 Axis Cam Express Version 7, a Binks spray gun with automotive polyurethane with a buffing wheel, a 3/8 X 10 double headed furniture screw, Gabon Ebony, and Elforyn Ivory substitute.
Mike Lambros has a 3 Axis Centroid, a PC with a Pentium, UV spray system with pumice, a radial pin, a real ivory tusk, and abalone.
---- The battle begins. both the CNC jockeys mount their stock as they begin to make a cue.
Lambros has his set up in 30 minutes and is milling on his trusty 3 Axis Centroid, with ivory filings and dust filling the air while Wayne is still reading the manual to figure out where the "on" button is located on his super complicated Cam Express.
Finally Wayne gets his stock mounted and the 5 axis Cam Express roars to life, but Lambros is almost done pushing his slow but reliable 3 axis machine to the limit.
- Then - disater strikes, as the Lambros PC succumbs to a renegade worm virus he got surfing -shall we say - questionable internet sites. He sheepishly explains that he thought "live cam" was a new 4 axis CNC router!
Anyway, Lambros downloads the fix and it's back to the races. Both cue makers pull their cues off to cut the inlays. Wayne's powerful machine is set too high and too deep, and turns his Elforyn into a steaming pile of silly putty.
-- Meanwhile, Lambros comes to the grim realization that 3 axis has it's limits. He is going to have to do the unthinkable - something he's never actually attemped before and no cue maker has attemped in the last 10 years. He's going to have to sand the cue by hand! He has read about this grim deed but is not sure exactly what to do. He slowly rubs the abalone and realizes that sanding is not that bad of a thing and in fact, it gave him a strange sense of pleasure - like he himself had done something, something good!
- Wayne goes to insert the 3/8 X 10 and realizes the damn die was cut too small, so he crossthreads it and has to add a phenolic insert -oh well, it's a black cue, who cares? It's only a 20K cue anyway. Meanwhile Lambros has the more expensive and foolproof radial pin, which fits perfect every time as long as you don't go for the stinkin' copies (shame on you who buy those, you know who you are too).
- They both finish the cues in about the same time before Wayne reaches for his Binks. He knows that he has to mix the automotive clear 'hot" or the Lambros UV system will eat his lunch. Wayne throws on 3 coats and catches air bubbles - he thinks he may be able to buff through them. He blames it on buzz cause his mask has a couple of cracks. Meanwhile, the Lambros cue is basking in the UV radiation, glowing purple like George Hamilton on a bad day. Lamrbos is putting on the water and pumice and Wayne is buffing away.
And the winner is.....
Stay tuned for part two, and now a word from our sponsor.
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Brother that was one of the most original and funny posts I've ever read....lmfao! I am tuned in gladly awaiting part two of the two part episode......
-HILARIOUS,
-Grey Ghost
examples
4-Axis Machining
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l66hyPConUs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VEZcWvbzIM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awhAkKcoC8Q&feature=related
may this helps a little to better understand what they are talking about ..
4-Axis Machining
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l66hyPConUs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VEZcWvbzIM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awhAkKcoC8Q&feature=related
may this helps a little to better understand what they are talking about ..
Thanks, cuemasterpieces.
When looking at your videos I saw this one for FIVE axis CNC. Just THINK about the new levels we could bring the arguments to!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSvgvNyHEYU
Personally, I don't use cues with lower than SIX axis CNC machine work. I just can't HIT RIGHT with anything less
When looking at your videos I saw this one for FIVE axis CNC. Just THINK about the new levels we could bring the arguments to!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSvgvNyHEYU
Personally, I don't use cues with lower than SIX axis CNC machine work. I just can't HIT RIGHT with anything less