Thorsten"s Amazing 174 Run Not Allowed To Continue! Shame On You!!!

[Mr441]

I am not authority, nor do I claim to be. And sorry if I came off a bit brash.

Was the 182 in game, or after the match was decided?

I thought that this current World Championsip was the first to have over 150 points for matches. Again, please correct me if I am wrong. I really don't know.

Procita's 182 came in the early 1950's a in World Championship match against none other than Willie Mosconi. They were playing 150 point matches at the time so I assume Procita must have been at -33 or more and then ran 182 from there. He must have gotten on 3 fouls Twice to go so far in the negative. I'm not entirely sure as I've never seen a detailed account of the run but I know those guys used to think nothing of purposely taking a third foul and losing 16 points.


.

 

[mjantti]

In snooker the players are expected to continue their break after enough points have been secured to win the game. i.e. About 75.

This is because making a century or a high clearance is the most exciting feature of the sport.

I'd suggest 14.1 takes a lesson from this and encourages players who finish on a run of 100 or more to continue shooting for a shot at the tourney high run prize.

A video of a 200+ run by a player will sell more copies than a 120 run finish. That's good for the tourney sponsors, promoters and the brand value of the player who makes the break.

It's a marketing opportunity being missed IMHO.

Colin

The idea sounds good until you start to think about it. In snooker, finishing the break in order to make a total clearence or a century might take extra 5 min tops, usually just a couple of minutes. In straight pool, continuing your run might take additional hour. Scheduling conflict here.

That's why I think the straight pool event at the DCC was great for breaking those high runs, because it was designed just for that. More such events, please !

 

[pdcue]

Shame on you for not knowing 14.1 history

First, as a 14.1 lover I want to thank everyone involved and especially those who put money into the 14.1 event at the Hilton in NJ. I mean this sincerely.

BUT

When a player has just broke the world rercord with an amazing 174 and out in competion you MUST let them keep shooting. Not only because of the 174 but because he was in dead stroke and was shooting the most technically mind blowing run I have ever seen. (and I've seen tons of very large runs)THE NEXT MATCH SIMPLY IS NOT NEARLY AS IMPORTANT! THE HELL WITH THE CLOCK AND THE PLAYING SCHEDULE!!!

Sure he could have missed his next shot but the 174 opened the door for historic possibilities and all you were concerned about was the next match. Shame on you. How many 14.1 events on this level are there anymore where the potential for something additionally historic exists? Its even more rare than a player running 150 and out.

Thorsten has a lifetime high run of over 400 balls. If he went on to run 300or more balls (regardless of the odds against it), this event and the run would have been talked about around the world.


If Thorsten would have agreed to keep shooting then you blew it.

Hopefully you will learn from this mistake.

the mistake is yours

tournaments have never permitted runs to continue past the game's
completion, nor should they

at this event, there were likely 10 or more players who are fully capable
of runs of 400 or more

I enjoy high run demos as much as anybody

perhaps you could collect money to sponsor a hi-run contest

Dale<14.1 maven>

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

there was no allow or disallow on hohmann to continue

he simply won , shook schmidts hand and unscrewed his stick

he didnt seem he had any intention of wanting to continue

Charlie, thank you very much for making that clear.


Interestingly, had this been nine-ball, nobody would have expected a player to continue his run.


Here at Amsterdam Billiards, we recently had an exhibition between two of our top players in a 2500 point game over three days. I think this is likely the only format you're going to see a player have a significant run. We simply need to have more of these.

 

[bud green]

How would you like to be his next opponent and have to wait a couple hours for TH to keep running balls into the three or four hundreds? Waiting around for a match can be tiring anyway, waiting around for a ball running machine to miss would be completely exhausting.

Only in the finals should a player keep a run going if he runs out the match and is on a high run. Straight pool is a classy game with a tradition of higher standards in dress, behavior, and fan appreciation. I think most of the pros respect that and don't want it to change. There's always 9-ball for the egomaniacs and guys looking to pull "moves".

If people want to see high runs, the only way it's going to happen is with the old-style challenge matches.

 

[sjm]

It this run had been allowed to continue, it would have been nothing short of disgraceful.

Tournaments have limited space and there are time allotments for each match and a match schedule. Fans know this schedule and plan around it. Players know this schedule and plan around it. Tournament staff know this schedule and plan around it. When matches run overtime, it not only compromises the interests of the fans, the players, and the tournament staff, but compromises the integrity of the event itself.

The great shame would have been if this run HAD BEEN allowed to continue.

 

[Gerry]

At least we're all talking about 14.1!....I"ve never seen so many threads about the game in all my time here, so thats fine by me. A few thoughts:

> If someone did break the record at the DCC.....would we call it a record because they had no opponent?

> Does it take anything away from Mosconi's record because he had no opponent?

> If Cranfields, and Eufemias 600+ runs were witnessed I wanna know a lot more about them!

Todays possible headlines: Thorsten Hohman, German Billiards Champion wins World Straight Pool Title in New Jersey.

or: Thorsten Hohman, German Billiards Champion wins World Straight Pool Title breaking Willie Mosconis 50 year old High run record of 526 consecutive balls.

I'd be saving and framing the 2nd one for my grand kids

Gerry

 

[robertno1pool]

Thorsten's 174 run

Do you let the first person to end a match with a run of ten (10) balls continue to shoot after the match is finished and the player agrees, because no one else had a run of nine (9) previously and they might run 183 balls or more if allowed to continue?

I agree that high runs should be allowed to continue in Tournament play, point is it is not clear how you can have a tournament schedule with every other game that would have ended being continued.

Tougher than it looks.

 

[Slim J]

Ok, since I started this let me say many good, level headed points have been made. Thank you for them.

Charlie is correct in that Thorsten did not look for a ref after making the last ball to see if he can keep shooting. I'm sure its because he had more important considerations like winning the event. That fact is the big one for me.

I think I was overly passionate about a possible run that would really put 14.1 back to the front of the pool world and maybe even get non pool players talking about it. Like I said before, pool never gets any kind of press coverage anywhere of any kind. Its still the bastard stepchild of American sports. Unless its an event like when Earl ran 10 9 ball racks for $1,000,000. Hopefully the IPT will change that, well have to wait and see.14.1 needs a mind bogling run simply to draw attention to itself. That 174 for me was the old creaky 14.1 door opening to possibly grab the worlds attention. The 174 to Thorsten was probably a good match winning run and nothing else. That speaks volumes.

I thought this was a tremendous event. For the players the format was by far the best I've ever seen. Yes a few areas need attention for next time but I take my hat off to all the organizers and players for a great show. If this event keeps going and we get a regular 14.1 World Championship every year or more than once a year with this caliber field the idea of high run contest may become a curious possibility.

Finally I just was to say that if runs like Thomas Engert's 491 and all the other 400 ball runs on record are legit then Mosconi's 526 will for sure be broken.

 

[Slim J]

Gerry,

Thanks for your 'to the point' example. While I have come around to understanding the problems with allowing an already record breaking run to continue (unless it's in the final match), in just a few words you nailed the point I have been trying to make. Very well said!

 

[chefjeff]

Don't worry...TH is/will be the greatest player of all time, imho, so longer runs will happen often enough to please any spectator.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Colin Colenso]

It this run had been allowed to continue, it would have been nothing short of disgraceful.

Tournaments have limited space and there are time allotments for each match and a match schedule. Fans know this schedule and plan around it. Players know this schedule and plan around it. Tournament staff know this schedule and plan around it. When matches run overtime, it not only compromises the interests of the fans, the players, and the tournament staff, but compromises the integrity of the event itself.

The great shame would have been if this run HAD BEEN allowed to continue.

sjm,
In this particular case I agree it wouldn't have been appropriate for TH to continue. But my suggestion is that tourney organizers make such conditions a part of the procedure pre-tournament, and offer bonuses for 200, 250, 300 + runs.

The condition would have to be that the player is on 100 or more at the completion of his match.

It's strange to me that there are comments about this being an inconvenience to the fans. I would argue that such occurences would provide the biggest highlights of the tournament to the fans. I expect the majority would gather around the table as a player climbs towards 200 to observe a special part of pool folklore.

There were only a few matches that finished on a 100 run during the tournament. An extension of these wouldn't have sacrificed scheduling too much if such things were planned for.

One of the sad things about 14.1 is the lack of video of large breaks. (In snooker, the 147's provide national news coverage and attract many viewers to the rest of the tournament) If a tournament can produce a 200+ run (even if only the last half is captured), then it will be remembered as a classic among fans for a long time. That's good for the sponsors, and therefore would provide further tournament opportunities.

Colin

 

[Slim J]

Excellent points Colin.
I will be the first to admit I may be looking at 14.1 thru rose colored glasses and being somewhat idealistic but I get the impression that there are many 14.1 lovers all over the place who are being a bit near sighted.

SJM
"If this run had been allowed to continue, it would have been nothing short of disgraceful."

What is disgraceful is that for the last 50 years pocket billiards has never risen to the ranks of a respected sport in this country.

Snooker is a highly respected game and sport in many parts of the world (very similar to 14.1). There are TV shows like 'Pot Black" and others that have been running for years. In many parts of the world snooker is only behind Formula One Auto Racing, soccer, golf and tennis in money earning for the players. Yes there are many social as well as financial reasons that in America pool is at the bottom of the sports mountain but that is whats a disgrace.

Whats disgraceful is that the great efforts of those that put on this wonderful world class event that only had $13,000 first prize and that is including Randy Goldwaters generous support. That is whats a disgrace. Where is any corporate sponsers or underwriting. Its never been part of pool as we know it.

When Mike Seigel ran the 150 and out against Mike Zuglan in NYC a few years ago I was there and noticed how the crowd in the room gravitated toward that match regardless of where they were sitting. Not for an instant did I want Seigel to keep running balls when he reached 150. 174 was different.

We are all obviously passionate about this and I think its great. Randy Goldwater said he felt 14.1 when played at a very high livel is an art. I think many of us feel that way. Think how difficult it is to be just good at pool. It deserves to be on par with other sport in this country. But it will never climb out of the cellar if fans are worried that a scheduled upcoming match will have to wait because a potential run that might blow the sport wide open could happen. It was only one run of 174 not a bunch and yes , he may very likely have missed in short order but it doesn't matter. An opportunity like this has not happened for decades. If the player is willing he should be allowed to keep running balls.


Please forgive my going on about this but I get a bit frustrated when so many people are more concerned about inconviencing the upcoming match as opposed to opening the door to possibilities that may end our great sport being on Americas Best Kept Secrets list.

Gerry's post:
Todays possible headlines: Thorsten Hohman, German Billiards Champion wins World Straight Pool Title in New Jersey.

or: Thorsten Hohman, German Billiards Champion wins World Straight Pool Title breaking Willie Mosconis 50 year old High run record of 526 consecutive balls.

I'd be saving and framing the 2nd one for my grand kids

Nuf said...

 

[pdcue]

At least we're all talking about 14.1!....I"ve never seen so many threads about the game in all my time here, so thats fine by me. A few thoughts:

> If someone did break the record at the DCC.....would we call it a record because they had no opponent?

> Does it take anything away from Mosconi's record because he had no opponent?

Gerry

he did have an opponent - sort of
back then, champions toured the country playing exhibitiion matches
in local pool rooms - typically, if the pro were on a good run, he would continue 'till he missed - it evolved into a sort of informal competition
amoung the great players

Dale

 

[TheOne]

In snooker the players are expected to continue their break after enough points have been secured to win the game. i.e. About 75.

This is because making a century or a high clearance is the most exciting feature of the sport.

I'd suggest 14.1 takes a lesson from this and encourages players who finish on a run of 100 or more to continue shooting for a shot at the tourney high run prize.

A video of a 200+ run by a player will sell more copies than a 120 run finish. That's good for the tourney sponsors, promoters and the brand value of the player who makes the break.

It's a marketing opportunity being missed IMHO.

Colin

Hi m8, I can see where youre coming from here but I don't agree with your snooker analogy I'm afraid

The difference here is that in 14.1 the MATCH is over when a player reaches the target number eg 200 in this case. In snooker the MATCH is still alive and in theory the FRAME is still alive until the pink ball is made because no matter how improbable the other player could still win the frame via gaining foul points. I think a fairer anaology would be if a snooker player made a 100 break 4 frames in a row but needed 1 more frame to break the world record for back to back centuries (I forgot what the record is, probably 4 or 5 in tournament play). In this case the players would have to play an extra frame to see if the record could be broken even though the MATCH is over. This of course would never happen for similar reasons why Hohman didn't continue is run.

I agree though Colin that there is a lack of straight pool on DVD, the mosconi video on your tube was the first footage I'd ever seen, oh apart from the Hustler and color of money lol!

I think formats like the DCC is the perfect formula for recording high straight pool runs. Personally given the lack of practice tables in many pro events I would like to see 1 table made available for a seperate hign run comp at next years events and all pro events. This would:

a) Give the players a table to practice on
b) Give the players another opportunity to win some cash
c) Give the fans something else to see.
d) Give the players and the fans the chance to see a record breaking high run.

A webcam could be setup on this table and the high runs could be recorded for sale.

Just a thought

 

[Williebetmore]

There is only one solution. A player on a high run could be given the opportunity to continue a high run on an exhibition table after the match is completed - IF he wishes. Prizes for high exhibition runs could encourage participation. This suggestion I believe, was offered up by Weenie Beenie on an Accu-Stats video. Beenie was of the mind that Mosconi's record could be broken if such things were encouraged.

Otherwise, FORGET IT. High run attempts have no other place in straight pool competition. Exhibition high runs and competition high runs are totally separate animals, and probably should remain so. If John Schmidt is inclined to state a competition run of 112 was a greater accomplishment than a 400; then I'm inclined to think they should remain separate ventures.

 

[AuntyDan]

I think formats like the DCC is the perfect formula for recording high straight pool runs. Personally given the lack of practice tables in many pro events I would like to see 1 table made available for a seperate hign run comp at next years events and all pro events.

Interesting idea. Of course you'd need at least one referee to be on hand at all times when someone wanted to have a go at a high run so there would be a reliable witness. Perhaps instead of having a competative scenario (IE A prize for highest run overall as done in this year's DCC) there would simply be some fixed prizes for set runs - 100, 150, 200, etc. with perhaps a bonus prize for the highest overall run.

I also recall hearing the Diamond tables at the DCC were fairly tight, whereas most people are reporting the tables at the World's were fairly loose, which might explain the relative dearth of high runs at the DCC.

 

[sjm]

SJM

When Mike Seigel ran the 150 and out against Mike Zuglan in NYC a few years ago I was there and noticed how the crowd in the room gravitated toward that match regardless of where they were sitting. Not for an instant did I want Seigel to keep running balls when he reached 150. 174 was different.

I was there, too. It's funny that you say it was a few years ago, for it was fourteen years ago, yet it is a fresh memory for me, too, and seems more recent than that.

I was also at the World Straight Pool championships in 1976, 1977, 1978, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983 and 1986. I was also at the 1992 and 1993 US Open Straight Pool events, the 1999 National Straight Pool Championships, and the 2000 BCA 14.1 Championships. In short, I've sweated my share of straight pool matches.

I can appreciate your thirst for the completion of the run, but, in my opinion, a run that doesn't come in the natural course of competition shouldn't sit in the tournament record books.

There are tournaments and there are exhibitions, and they are two very different animals. I have been to my share of both.

I certainly do not agree with those who suggest that an arrangement in which players would be permitted to finish their runs is manageable.

 

[Gerry]

You know something?!.....my friend who was at the event made a good point. He said there may have been things to complain about, but he heard NOBODY say anything bad about the playing equipment. Just a thought I felt needed to be out there.

Gerry

 

[Leil gay]

Bob Jewett and MR.Goldater 2007 DCC Straight pool challenge my god i might have to invest more than the 2400beans last year, seriosly Bob could use helpfinancially and running this event I ALREADY PROMISED TO HELP CLEAN TABLES for a couple buybacks, Bob and Randy couldbe great team by the way SJM agree with you 100% Makes me want to start running balls.