Try the shot with and without the side cushion to see which is easier for you. But I practice the shot without a side cushion.mullyman said:
Throwing Your Cue....
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
Feel free. I wouldn't have put it up and expected people not to make copies for their own use. I don't even mind if instructors print it out to help with classes as long as they don't strip the logo stuff.mullyman said:
The cue ball is in hand behind the line. The point is to discover what angle you need to achieve the draw angle. I recommend no cushion and no side spin.SpiderWebComm said:
Progressive practice gives you a distance at which you are 50% on the shot. Read the PDF. In the current sorry state of my game, I'm 50% at about 4.5 on a table with 4.25-inch pockets.
Bob Jewett said:
Good info--- I can do this w/ ball-in-hand. I'll just set it up at position 5 straight in, with a straight-back angle to the little box. I'll hit it warp speed and make the speed adjustment to the position spot with my tip positioning. Once I get that adjustment, It'll go. I might be thinking too hard. Let me read your instructions.
By the way, you're not fooling me with 'sorry game' talk
You're a player-player no matter what you say on AZB.
Neil said:
I was just mentioning earlier that there's a HUGE difference in stroke between stop and slight roll forward. You wouldn't think so, but it's a big difference. It's that stroke he's trying to develop, not the shot.
Dave...I agree, and tell you what...When I come see you, I'll set this shot up, with 4 diamonds between the two balls (on hole reinforcements), and bet you dinner that you cannot shoot a perfect stopshot even 3 out of 10 tries! The major point of our conversation, is that Kinister's shot #1 is an extreme shot, and rarely comes up in a game. Therefore, imo, spending a lot of time trying to perfect this shot, before you can even shoot a perfect stopshot, at that distance, is a complete waste of time.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
P.S. The best part of this bet is we'll both get to EAT!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
P.S. The best part of this bet is we'll both get to EAT!
SpiderWebComm said:
Scott Lee said:Dave...I agree, and tell you what...When I come see you, I'll set this shot up, with 4 diamonds between the two balls (on hole reinforcements), and bet you dinner that you cannot shoot a perfect stopshot even 3 out of 10 tries! The major point of our conversation, is that Kinister's shot #1 is an extreme shot, and rarely comes up in a game. Therefore, imo, spending a lot of time trying to perfect this shot, before you can even shoot a perfect stopshot, at that distance, is a complete waste of time.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
P.S. The best part of this bet is we'll both get to EAT!
I wouldn't take the bet for 1/10 on the hole protector. The shot I shot requires a similar stroke to what you're describing versus the stop shot because of the slight forward rotation. Better a hair more than none at all.
Tell Thorsten or anyone on that list they have action for 8 balls on the hole protector. I'd go broke just to see it. They have a sucker in me, that's for sure
When I see you next, I'll buy you dinner for free. I have a lot of questions.
That's all I was saying.
P.S. All shot #1 is have you send out a completely flat ball (long distance)--- it's a different world to control a long flat ball versus a long lag-draw. Your thoughts? Curious on your feelings on that.
Dave...That stop shot is required part of the PAT 3 test...4 diamond PERFECT stop shot. I don't know personally know any of the German players, so that's up to you, to get that action!
No doubt we'll have that dinner, in the not-to-distant future...and you can ask away!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
No doubt we'll have that dinner, in the not-to-distant future...and you can ask away!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
SpiderWebComm said:I wouldn't take the bet for 1/10 on the hole protector. The shot I shot requires a similar stroke to what you're describing versus the stop shot because of the slight forward rotation. Better a hair more than none at all.
Tell Thorsten or anyone on that list they have action for 8 balls on the hole protector. I'd go broke just to see it. They have a sucker in me, that's for sure
When I see you next, I'll buy you dinner for free. I have a lot of questions.
That's all I was saying.
P.S. All shot #1 is have you send out a completely flat ball (long distance)--- it's a different world to control a long flat ball versus a long lag-draw. Your thoughts? Curious on your feelings on that.
Tell you soemthing about the hole protector. I don't think that anyone could move the ball forward to replace the OB from anything more than a few inches apart and even then it would be extremely tough. Now, and I really mean this, I enjoy shooting pool and I like learning things that can improve my play and I'll even practice from time to time, but there is no way in Hell that I want to spend the time it would take practicing moving the cueball forward a butt hair after contact. If anyone seriously works on replacing the object ball on that hole protector....well, that's some serious OCD right there.
MULLY
I don't think it could be done consistently though
MULLY
I don't think it could be done consistently though
Bob:
Well, that test didn't last long. First shot, made the ball....sucked back to middle table. Second shot, made the ball, sucked back to my rail--but 2 diamonds outside of my little box. Third shot, I flew the CB off the table and it blew up my layered tip LMAO. UGGGGGH. No more pool until I make it to the shop in Baltimore.
After 3 shots, it can be done, although unreliably. I don't like releasing the cue on such a hard draw shot with the butt-end elevated over the rail. I honestly never tried it until just now. Being jacked-up that little bit made a huge difference in how the cue ball reacted. My guess is you probably knew that going in and this made your point
With a level cue, I can snap the hell out of the CB (power draw or follow) with a throw-stroke. With an unlevel cue and extreme draw, ya gotta hold on. Release and catch isn't any good for that shot either... not enough power. With the butt jacked-up, the tip of the cue flies up too fast and launches the CB. I just learned one scenario where it can't work, reliably.
Dave
p.s. anyone have a cue i can borrow until the weekend? :'-(
p.p.s. put me on a snooker table with the same distance draw where I can keep that cue level....not a problem.
Well, that test didn't last long. First shot, made the ball....sucked back to middle table. Second shot, made the ball, sucked back to my rail--but 2 diamonds outside of my little box. Third shot, I flew the CB off the table and it blew up my layered tip LMAO. UGGGGGH. No more pool until I make it to the shop in Baltimore.
After 3 shots, it can be done, although unreliably. I don't like releasing the cue on such a hard draw shot with the butt-end elevated over the rail. I honestly never tried it until just now. Being jacked-up that little bit made a huge difference in how the cue ball reacted. My guess is you probably knew that going in and this made your point
With a level cue, I can snap the hell out of the CB (power draw or follow) with a throw-stroke. With an unlevel cue and extreme draw, ya gotta hold on. Release and catch isn't any good for that shot either... not enough power. With the butt jacked-up, the tip of the cue flies up too fast and launches the CB. I just learned one scenario where it can't work, reliably.
Dave
p.s. anyone have a cue i can borrow until the weekend? :'-(
p.p.s. put me on a snooker table with the same distance draw where I can keep that cue level....not a problem.
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Wrist position when "throwing" the cue
Folks:
A late-comer to this thread, and I did my best to read as much of it as I could, but I wanted to lend a little mechanical engineering view to point something out that detractors to this "throwing the cue" technique *might* be overlooking. (And "might" is the key operative word here; I don't mean to use it authoritatively, but rather more as a "have you considered it from this perspective?" viewpoint.) When watching Dave's video, I noticed his wrist position when gripping the cue. It is a *prone* wrist position -- meaning, his wrist is bent outwards (away from the body) slightly, enough so that the palm of his hand is "hovering over" the top surface of the gripping area of the cue, with his fingers and thumb directed down perfectly perpendicular to the floor along the "sides" of the gripping surface of the cue, gently wrapping under it. (I don't know if this is Dave's "normal" wrist position before-discovering/not-using the "throwing the cue" technique, and I use the term "prone" to mean just like it does in competitive rifle shooting -- lying flat on one's belly. The analogy here is "palm = belly.") Keith McCready is an example of a player that uses a prone wrist position, albeit his is an extreme example. This is as opposed to a retrograde wrist position, a la Efren Reyes, where the wrist is bent inwards towards the body with the major knuckles of the fingers (e.g. 2nd joint) pointed towards the floor, the cue "rolling over" the knuckle of the index finger as its fulcrum point during stroke.
What does this have to do with the thread? Mechanics-wise, methinks this "throwing the cue" technique is *much* easier and more natural for a player that uses a prone wrist position, because his/her grip fingers are naturally angled down perpendicular to the floor, along the "sides" of the cue. A pure mechanical analogy might be the "gripper claw" you see attached to a crane in a garbage dump; the gripper claw opens, grabs material, and when finally positioned over the destination deposit area, opens and releases, letting the material fall straight down without any sideways influence from the gripper claw itself. (BTW, I did mean that to be a pure mechanical analogy; no "garbage dump" innuendos to this thread was intended. )
Players that use a straight or retrograde wrist position will have a much tougher time with the "throwing the cue" technique without imparting some kind of "spin" or "roll" to the cue as they try to get their fingers out from under the cue. So it would be safe to say that the "throwing the cue" technique might not be a "natural" or beneficial technique for players that use standard or retrograde wrist position, unless they adopt a very extreme "snap open" motion of the hand, which would be quite unnatural and may even impart some "yaw" to the cue if the cue happens to cling a bit to either the thumb or one of the fingers.
I have seen players like Keith McCready use the "throwing the cue" technique (albeit Keith's sidearm style is extremely unorthodox). And even then, he used it as more as a money-/game-ball "coupe de grace" show-off shot.
Thoughts? What say ye all?
-Sean
mullyman said:
Folks:
A late-comer to this thread, and I did my best to read as much of it as I could, but I wanted to lend a little mechanical engineering view to point something out that detractors to this "throwing the cue" technique *might* be overlooking. (And "might" is the key operative word here; I don't mean to use it authoritatively, but rather more as a "have you considered it from this perspective?" viewpoint.) When watching Dave's video, I noticed his wrist position when gripping the cue. It is a *prone* wrist position -- meaning, his wrist is bent outwards (away from the body) slightly, enough so that the palm of his hand is "hovering over" the top surface of the gripping area of the cue, with his fingers and thumb directed down perfectly perpendicular to the floor along the "sides" of the gripping surface of the cue, gently wrapping under it. (I don't know if this is Dave's "normal" wrist position before-discovering/not-using the "throwing the cue" technique, and I use the term "prone" to mean just like it does in competitive rifle shooting -- lying flat on one's belly. The analogy here is "palm = belly.") Keith McCready is an example of a player that uses a prone wrist position, albeit his is an extreme example. This is as opposed to a retrograde wrist position, a la Efren Reyes, where the wrist is bent inwards towards the body with the major knuckles of the fingers (e.g. 2nd joint) pointed towards the floor, the cue "rolling over" the knuckle of the index finger as its fulcrum point during stroke.
What does this have to do with the thread? Mechanics-wise, methinks this "throwing the cue" technique is *much* easier and more natural for a player that uses a prone wrist position, because his/her grip fingers are naturally angled down perpendicular to the floor, along the "sides" of the cue. A pure mechanical analogy might be the "gripper claw" you see attached to a crane in a garbage dump; the gripper claw opens, grabs material, and when finally positioned over the destination deposit area, opens and releases, letting the material fall straight down without any sideways influence from the gripper claw itself. (BTW, I did mean that to be a pure mechanical analogy; no "garbage dump" innuendos to this thread was intended.
) Players that use a straight or retrograde wrist position will have a much tougher time with the "throwing the cue" technique without imparting some kind of "spin" or "roll" to the cue as they try to get their fingers out from under the cue. So it would be safe to say that the "throwing the cue" technique might not be a "natural" or beneficial technique for players that use standard or retrograde wrist position, unless they adopt a very extreme "snap open" motion of the hand, which would be quite unnatural and may even impart some "yaw" to the cue if the cue happens to cling a bit to either the thumb or one of the fingers.
I have seen players like Keith McCready use the "throwing the cue" technique (albeit Keith's sidearm style is extremely unorthodox). And even then, he used it as more as a money-/game-ball "coupe de grace" show-off shot.
Thoughts? What say ye all?
-Sean
sfleinen said:Folks:
A late-comer to this thread, and I did my best to read as much of it as I could, but I wanted to lend a little mechanical engineering view to point something out that detractors to this "throwing the cue" technique *might* be overlooking. (And "might" is the key operative word here; I don't mean to use it authoritatively, but rather more as a "have you considered it from this perspective?" viewpoint.) When watching Dave's video, I noticed his wrist position when gripping the cue. It is a *prone* wrist position -- meaning, his wrist is bent outwards (away from the body) slightly, enough so that the palm of his hand is "hovering over" the top surface of the gripping area of the cue, with his fingers and thumb directed down perfectly perpendicular to the floor along the "sides" of the gripping surface of the cue, gently wrapping under it. (I don't know if this is Dave's "normal" wrist position before-discovering/not-using the "throwing the cue" technique, and I use the term "prone" to mean just like it does in competitive rifle shooting -- lying flat on one's belly. The analogy here is "palm = belly.") Keith McCready is an example of a player that uses a prone wrist position, albeit his is an extreme example. This is as opposed to a retrograde wrist position, a la Efren Reyes, where the wrist is bent inwards towards the body with the major knuckles of the fingers (e.g. 2nd joint) pointed towards the floor, the cue "rolling over" the knuckle of the index finger as its fulcrum point during stroke.
What does this have to do with the thread? Mechanics-wise, methinks this "throwing the cue" technique is *much* easier and more natural for a player that uses a prone wrist position, because his/her grip fingers are naturally angled down perpendicular to the floor, along the "sides" of the cue. A pure mechanical analogy might be the "gripper claw" you see attached to a crane in a garbage dump; the gripper claw opens, grabs material, and when finally positioned over the destination deposit area, opens and releases, letting the material fall straight down without any sideways influence from the gripper claw itself. (BTW, I did mean that to be a pure mechanical analogy; no "garbage dump" innuendos to this thread was intended.
Players that use a straight or retrograde wrist position will have a much tougher time with the "throwing the cue" technique without imparting some kind of "spin" or "roll" to the cue as they try to get their fingers out from under the cue. So it would be safe to say that the "throwing the cue" technique might not be a "natural" or beneficial technique for players that use standard or retrograde wrist position, unless they adopt a very extreme "snap open" motion of the hand, which would be quite unnatural and may even impart some "yaw" to the cue if the cue happens to cling a bit to either the thumb or one of the fingers.
I have seen players like Keith McCready use the "throwing the cue" technique (albeit Keith's sidearm style is extremely unorthodox). And even then, he used it as more as a money-/game-ball "coupe de grace" show-off shot.
Thoughts? What say ye all?
-Sean
very perceptive. you are right. my wrist position is prone as u would say when throwing because it's the only way to get your hand out of the way.
I don't hold the cue in that way normally. it's an inverse position if u were throwing a dart.
good post
Bob Jewett said:
Ok, set it up last night and this is what happened.
Position 1: 5 for 5
Position 2: 5 for 5
Position 3: 5 for 5
Position 4: Rattled pocket once but made target area with cue ball. 4 for 5
Position 5: Rattled pocket twice but made target area with cue ball. 3 for 5
Position 6: Oops, forgot about position 6 and didn't even try it.
Very interesting drills. Seems to me, for me, that the further away it gets the draw isn't the problem as much as making the ball is. I honestly think the further the ball gets away from me I'm using too much power and not enough stroke. I used to hit those long draw shots really well, loved them. 5 year lay off and I've lost that fluid stroke I had and can't seem to find it.
MULLY
I can feel myself punching the ball
Holding the cue too far "behind" your body?
You were catching the cue in your hand at the end of the (the = your) butt? Hmm... sounds like your stroke arm was... umm... way too far "behind" your body. Either that, or you have a very, very long upper arm. :-D
Just kidding! Seriously, glad my mechanical engineering insight was helpful.
Cheers,
-Sean
Vinnie said:
You were catching the cue in your hand at the end of the (the = your) butt? Hmm... sounds like your stroke arm was... umm... way too far "behind" your body. Either that, or you have a very, very long upper arm. :-D
Just kidding! Seriously, glad my mechanical engineering insight was helpful.
Cheers,
-Sean
sfleinen said:
Sean -- "Throwing the cue" is normally done without letting the cue fall to the table. The grip pressure is just so slight that the momentum of the cue stick in the forward stroke makes the cue stick slip through the fingers a bit. Whatever gripping fingers one normally has under the butt remain there, but without applying pressure for the brief moment of the throw. I'm sure most of the practitioners mentioned in RonV's post (#75 in this thread) do not use the exaggerated, cue-dropped-on-the-table type of throw. My point, then, as it relates to your post, is that ANY wrist position can be used while throwing the cue in this way. One need not change his wrist position (be it "in," "straight," or "out") when stroking with a throw.
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AtLarge said:
Although you're correct in saying you can successfully throw the cue without the "drop," both practitioners threw the cue and dropped it to the table as I demonstrated.
Dave, I imagine when you say "both practitioners" you're referring to Mannino and Nagy. Ron also mentioned a bunch of other practitioners -- most of the filipinos and himself. I'm merely trying to point out that dropping the cue on the table is, as Ron says, the "exaggerated" version of throwing, and that it is not the way all (or even most) "throwers" do it. I think the exaggerated version may scare some people away from trying ANY version of throwing. I think doubters should try it both ways.SpiderWebComm said:
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