tight pockets bad for pool?

[cardiac kid]

Just a further thought. Many years ago I was fortunate to meet Chet Ito at the Reno Open. He invited me to visit his pool room in Mountainside, CA. It took me a year or two to get there but it was awesome! When I arrived, I asked the counterperson for one of the tables near the side door. First he told me, I want to see you hit some balls. Never heard of that before but when in Rome...... Being a 14.1 player, I racked them up, broke and proceeded to run a couple of racks. He came over and told me it was OK to keep playing. Strange but I felt somewhat honored to play on those GC's. California Billiards has been one of my favorite rooms since. Don't get there very much now that I'm retired but if I'm in the Bay area, I'm there! Not sure how small the pockets were but they were tight! You could look at my situation a couple of ways. Did he not want me to "bang" balls on those tables? Were those tables really for the better players only? Either way the guy was a good houseman.

Lyn

 

[Georgia Boy]

Tight pockets are, IMHO, the way to go for League and Tournament Tables. Everyone should strive to be more accurate, tighter pockets make position play more important too.

Being able to strike a billiard ball, hit the rail within a foot of the pocket and still see it drop in is not any fun at all for me.

 

[poolhustler]

I think a clear distinction needs to be made here for this discussion on whether or not we are talking about tables for bangers or tables for more advanced players.

Hard Times here in Bellflower has it right. They have Ernesto's 4" tables for the advanced/psycho players and they also have 4 1/2" or 5" tables for bangers.

For those who say you can't cheat a 4" pocket table, you are wrong. The pockets can be cheated. It is just much more difficult!!! Correct position play is paramount and a tight table teaches you that as it punishes you.

To be honest with all here, the next time my table is recovered, the pockets will be put at 4 1/4". I think that is an ideal balance for the different games played at my house (9 ball, 10 ball, one pocket).

Whatever you play on, enjoy it baby!!

:smile:

 

[Antfarm]

I'm not necessarily convinced this is true. Equipment does not change the desire of one opponent to defeat the other, does it? I was gambling at onepocket once and winning. My opponent asked that we switch to a shimmed Diamond table. I said sure thing and beat him on that too. If he had wanted, I would have beat him playing tiddly winks as well...

What I meant was I think it helps to weed out the undeserving competition and helps to let the cream of the crop rise to the top. If the table is harder and that has become the norm, then that cream will work harder to master that new venue.

But, your right... equipment alone doesn't change desire or ability.

Greg

 

[Antfarm]

a friend of mine gave me the 7/8 on pockets about that tight. there ain't nothing wrong with tight pockets. in fact playing on anything bigger than 4 1/2 isn't really playing pool.

big pockets are what people like to play on because it makes them feel like they play better than they do.[/QUOTE]

That's my point too. That's good for new players or just a casual player like a once a week leaguer. That way, they stay interested in the sport because they believe they can play well and it is more enjoyable for them.

Good post.

Greg

 

[LAlouie]

But it does happen in other sports. Some examples I can think of off the top of my head:

Bob Feller was a major league pitching sensation when he debuted at 17 years of age.

Willie Hoppe won the world straight rail billiards championship at 18.

Mike Tyson had just turned 20 when he won the heavtweight title.

Not to mention all the top olympic gymnasts at 15-18 years of age.

Tennis also has many teenage champions.

So basically, what you agree with the OP, jalapus, that the pros should play on buckets. That IS the thrust of the thread, you realize.

That's akin to pulling in the fences in baseball by 20 '. Or maybe all baskets should be 9' high so'z every player can dunk with ease. Or maybe they should place the pitching rubber 8' back, or set golf greens 70yards closer and make the holes 8" wide. That way, everybody in every sport makes great plays and the spectators have lots of fun watching golf scores in the 50's and baseball teams with 500 homers a season. Some of the sports you mentioned are young sports. Women's gymnastics is all about getting young light bodies to make big moves...getting old and bigger is counterproductive. Women's tennis, another example of yours, is also about youth and the arc of their career is short. Everything else,,,I mean,, you guys always use anomalies as if they are normal.

Because that's what the OP is saying...make the game easier. Yeah, I want 6" pockets so I can run 500 balls and call my self "mr500". Of course, that means there'll be lots of mr2000+ 's.

 

[LAlouie]

Do you mean teenagers like Landon Shuffet? I think that he deserves his wins. If you practice like a pro, you can play like a pro, regardless of age, imo.

If Shuffet is that damned good then he can deal with tighter pockets,,,,can't he. You're all straying from the thrust of the OP's(oops, I'm sorry, YOU'RE the op) point, which is to make the game easier. Let me repeat that. YOU WANT TO MAKE THE GAME EASIER!!! LOL LOL LMAO :grin::grin::grin:

 

[jalapus logan]

So basically, what you agree with the OP, jalapus, that the pros should play on buckets. That IS the thrust of the thread, you realize.

That's akin to pulling in the fences in baseball by 20 '. Or maybe all baskets should be 9' high so'z every player can dunk with ease. Or maybe they should place the pitching rubber 8' back, or set golf greens 70yards closer and make the holes 8" wide. That way, everybody in every sport makes great plays and the spectators have lots of fun watching golf scores in the 50's and baseball teams with 500 homers a season. Some of the sports you mentioned are young sports. Women's gymnastics is all about getting young light bodies to make big moves...getting old and bigger is counterproductive. Women's tennis, another example of yours, is also about youth and the arc of their career is short. Everything else,,,I mean,, you guys always use anomalies as if they are normal.

Because that's what the OP is saying...make the game easier. Yeah, I want 6" pockets so I can run 500 balls and call my self "mr500". Of course, that means there'll be lots of mr2000+ 's.

I do not believe that pros should play on buckets. Rather, a rethinking of the tendency to think that tighter is better is really all that I'm suggesting. I like playing on all tables personally. But if viewership and popularity for this sport is ever going to increase, then I would suggest that going back to simila specs of say, a typical gold crown from the 80's or prior may be beneficial to the game. But who really knows. I'm a wannabe pool player with a day job and a bad fishing problem.

BTW, what did Earl and Efren play their big race on Hong Kong on? I seem to remember that it was a gold crown, but I'm curious if it was shimmed. I suspect not.

All in all, good discussion and lots of valid points on both sides.

Cheers...

 

[jalapus logan]

BTW, I'll offer the world the 8 ball playing 10 ball or 9 to 7 playing onepocket on this table.

Just a couple of stipulations though:

- Break from the box only and all balls must contact at lease 3 cushions, or the break is invalid
- no sharking: by this I mean, no talking, eating or drinking, etc. In fact, no hydration or nourishment of any kind allowed - this event must test one's stamina!
- Race to 1000, minimum
- No breaking right handed. It just looks funny to me.
- Also, no men allowed. I just would not be able to stand looking at only a man for the length of time required to complete this match.
- Additionally, except for the break, no cues allowed. The only pocketing technique allowed in this event is demonstrated by this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EVtIxQn_EY

Any takers? It should be a long one...

 

[Mr441]

So basically, what you agree with the OP, jalapus, that the pros should play on buckets. That IS the thrust of the thread, you realize.

That's akin to pulling in the fences in baseball by 20 '. Or maybe all baskets should be 9' high so'z every player can dunk with ease. Or maybe they should place the pitching rubber 8' back, or set golf greens 70yards closer and make the holes 8" wide. That way, everybody in every sport makes great plays and the spectators have lots of fun watching golf scores in the 50's and baseball teams with 500 homers a season. Some of the sports you mentioned are young sports. Women's gymnastics is all about getting young light bodies to make big moves...getting old and bigger is counterproductive. Women's tennis, another example of yours, is also about youth and the arc of their career is short. Everything else,,,I mean,, you guys always use anomalies as if they are normal.

Because that's what the OP is saying...make the game easier. Yeah, I want 6" pockets so I can run 500 balls and call my self "mr500". Of course, that means there'll be lots of mr2000+ 's.

I never said the pros should play on buckets, I was just correcting your statement about teenagers not being champions in other sports.

 

[CreeDo]

The biggest problem in pool is that the entry level is so low. You get teenagers who can give seasoned pros a hard time, and that SHOULD NEVER happen in any sport. It doesn't happen in other sports. There has to be some line drawn that separates the men from the boys.

Gotta disagree also on this one.

Numerous NBA players have been drafted fresh out of high school. John McEnroe made it to the semis at wimbledon at 18 and won 2 years later. Ty Cobb won his first batting title at 20 too. Ok, 20 is technically not a teenager, but close enough. We've got kids like Magnus Carlsen reaching world #1 in chess at 19. There have been some teenagers with olympic medals too (and not just in gymnastics and such) and two US Open (Golf) teenage champs.

I don't think age has anything to do with the tight pocket debate. In fact, I can see tight pockets favoring the straight shooting kids with young eyes, and doing no favors for an older player.

If kids are beating superior players at the table, chalk it up to the other dead horses we like to debate on here, like the length of the races.

 

[LAlouie]

I do not believe that pros should play on buckets. Rather, a rethinking of the tendency to think that tighter is better is really all that I'm suggesting.

Cheers...

You are also suggesting that buckets are the panacea for making the game more viewable. The game has issues because it is a boring game to watch someone walk around a 9' table. There are the images issues as well but that's another story. American audiences are not built for watching pool. It's really that simple. So you are trying to solve the unsolvable at the cost of making the game inferior(buckets).

 

[jalapus logan]

You are also suggesting that buckets are the panacea for making the game more viewable. The game has issues because it is a boring game to watch someone walk around a 9' table. There are the images issues as well but that's another story. American audiences are not built for watching pool. It's really that simple. So you are trying to solve the unsolvable at the cost of making the game inferior(buckets).

This may be true. I am a true pool fanatic, but I really don't care to watch it except for educational purposes. All that ever happens to me is that when I see a pool match, I just want to go play some myself. I was that way when I played baseball as well. I've never been a fan of any team or individual playing the sport, but I've really been a fan of playing the sport. Certainly, I can appreciate a great play or a great shot, but all that does is make me want to go try it myself.

I guess, in the end, pool is great for me and I'll continue on my present path with it till the end (I'm a lifer!). I would just like to see some increase in popularity. Hell, there's only one actual pool hall in Lexington now, and I don't even like it! In fact, not many people who I play nowadays like it. We just travel from home table to home table to play. Perhaps that is the future of pool. That and really bad bar boxes with duct tape on the felt to cover rips. That's what's around these parts. Oh well, I'm starting to get inspired. I may just start hosting invitational tournaments on my Diamond in the basement. And don't worry, it has tight pockets...:smile:

 

[Antfarm]

BTW, I'll offer the world the 8 ball playing 10 ball or 9 to 7 playing onepocket on this table.

Just a couple of stipulations though:

- Break from the box only and all balls must contact at lease 3 cushions, or the break is invalid
- no sharking: by this I mean, no talking, eating or drinking, etc. In fact, no hydration or nourishment of any kind allowed - this event must test one's stamina!
- Race to 1000, minimum
- No breaking right handed. It just looks funny to me.
- Also, no men allowed. I just would not be able to stand looking at only a man for the length of time required to complete this match.
- Additionally, except for the break, no cues allowed. The only pocketing technique allowed in this event is demonstrated by this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EVtIxQn_EY

Any takers? It should be a long one...

I mean seriously, how many times did this cat have to jam a cue ball in his mouth to get good at this? Can you say disgusting and really unsanitary? There really are some weird people in this world.

Greg

 

[Aaron_S]

It would be nice if there were some uniformity to the pockets including size and depth of shelf - especially for tournament table. At least the game of golf has some specs to the courses and a consistent hole size, lending to professionalism. Pool is Mickey Mouse in that regard. Diamond tables are not tight but the shelf makes them tricky. At least they set some sort of standard we can go by.

There is no serious player I know who likes to play on buckets. It makes the game a joke.

Chris

Amen, and I would like to see it taken a bit further and have some uniform performance ranges specified for cushions as well.

I personally feel that 4.25"-4.5" is a nice range for pocket size. To continue with the golf analogy, 5"+ pockets is about like putting coffee cans in the greens. Every duffer on the planet could two-putt from anywhere, and the pros would be holing out from 20 yds.

Aaron

 

[tasaddicts]

i prefer tight pockets!!!!!! it makes u sharper!!!!!! more precise bank shots as well!

 

[poolhustler]

i prefer tight pockets!!!!!! it makes u sharper!!!!!! more precise bank shots as well!

I agree!! Although I am only a lowly C player, tight pockets definately make you play better postion, more accurate aiming, etc..

If you continually get out of line on a tight table, it will torture you because you do not have the luxury of cheating a 5" pocket to get back in line.

Which in turn makes your safety game better!!

 

[TATE]

I agree!! Although I am only a lowly C player,

:wink: Sure you are - who you trying to set up???

 

[smoooothstroke]

Its just a better game with tight pockets imo but..

Just because 4.5 inch pockets are better then 5 inchers doesn't mean 4" pockets are better then 4.5s.Even with avid pool players who all claim"the tighter the better",my experiences is you tighten up all or most of the tables in a pool room and those same players start migrating across town.

As far as watch-ability,I like to see racks strung together but I assume anyone watching a pro event on TV would want to see both contestants get to the table and would not be put off by an occasional miss.

 

[poolplayer2093]

Its just a better game with tight pockets imo but..

Just because 4.5 inch pockets are better then 5 inchers doesn't mean 4" pockets are better then 4.5s.Even with avid pool players who all claim"the tighter the better",my experiences is you tighten up all or most of the tables in a pool room and those same players start migrating across town.

As far as watch-ability,I like to see racks strung together but I assume anyone watching a pro event on TV would want to see both contestants get to the table and would not be put off by an occasional miss.

i've been hit with a 3 pack twice playing a buddy of mine on his home table. his table has 3 7/8" pockets and i was getting the 7/8.

there's nothing wrong with tight pockets. you just have to play better to get out. if anything people don't like them because it forces them to realize how they really play