Tip Contact Time

[One Pocket John]

Almost forgot....I am not an instructor.

Depending on use of your grip hand fingers, the cue ball can be made to feel as though it is glued to the tip of your cue.

This is a feel thing. Like you are pushing the cue ball rather than shooting thru the cue ball.

John

 

[BeiberLvr]

Almost forgot....I am not an instructor.

Depending on use of your grip hand fingers, the cue ball can be made to feel as though it is glued to the tip of your cue.

This is a feel thing. Like you are pushing the cue ball rather than shooting thru the cue ball.

John

Boom! I said the exact same thing in another thread somewhere on here. And it's exactly right. The best thing, is that this can be done w/o an elbow drop which some people think is necessary for an extended follow through.

Watch an Efren video on youtube, and he uses this method, as do many other pros.

I would love to see Dr. Dave employ this method in a high speed video to see the actual tip contact time.

A good example is Darren's shot on the 9ball in this video.

http://youtu.be/6fJMiadZPic?t=26m

 

[ENGLISH!]

Almost forgot....I am not an instructor.

Depending on use of your grip hand fingers, the cue ball can be made to feel as though it is glued to the tip of your cue.

This is a feel thing. Like you are pushing the cue ball rather than shooting thru the cue ball.

John

Hi John,

I tried to 'discuss' contact time with a comment in another thread but it got ignored. I was comparing it to a cushioned hit. The fingers & wrist are sort of like a spring or shock absorber. Kind of like as if the cue was connected together with a spring vs a solid steel joint. Would the same force yield the exact same contact time or woud the 'spring cue' allow for more contact time while it rebounds & pushes the cue through?

In either case, there are those of us that can feel it, what ever it is.

Best Regards,

 

[BeiberLvr]

Hi John,

I tried to 'discuss' contact time with a comment in another thread but it got ignored. I was comparing it to a cushioned hit. The fingers & wrist are sort of like a spring or shock absorber. Kind of like as if the cue was connected together with a spring vs a solid steel joint. Would the same force yield the exact same contact time or woud the 'spring cue' allow for more contact time while it rebounds & pushes the cue through?

In either case, there are those of us that can feel it, what ever it is.

Best Regards,

I'd like to hear John's answer on this, but I'll give you mine in the meantime since I use this method.

Honestly, I just use a standard loose grip. The cue rests on all four fingers, and the same amount of tension is applied during all parts of the stroke.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'd like to hear John's answer on this, but I'll give you mine in the meantime since I use this method.

Honestly, I just use a standard loose grip. The cue rests on all four fingers, and the same amount of tension is applied during all parts of the stroke.

Beiber,

I can certainly see how the same or very similiar reslts can be obtained in slighty different manners. I think the main contributor is the 'controlled slower acceleration' or maybe a constant speed of the hit. This can certainly be obtained from different control mechanisms. As I said earlier, I really have never thought about how I actually achieve the hit. I do it subconsciously.

Best Regards,

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Increased contact time is a good thing, right?
...

Not directly. The amount of spin you get on the cue ball is not determined by tip contact time. A harder tip will generate higher peak force on the ball for a shorter time. A softer tip will generate lower peak force on the ball for a longer time. The result is more of less the same speed and spin. You should choose your tip for other reasons, such as prestige and style, or maybe durability and ability to hold chalk and not miscue.

Dwelling on contact time is not useful in my opinion.

There is a hand-wavy argument that I more or less agree with that prolonging contact time is a bad thing if you want to get a large spin/speed ratio. The tip rides around the ball during off-center contacts. If it stays on the ball a long time, it will ride around to miscue territory.

 

[One Pocket John]

Beiber,

I can certainly see how the same or very similiar reslts can be obtained in slighty different manners. I think the main contributor is the 'controlled slower acceleration' or maybe a constant speed of the hit. This can certainly be obtained from different control mechanisms. As I said earlier, I really have never thought about how I actually achieve the hit. I do it subconsciously.

Best Regards,

I am not an instructor.

Thanks Rick good term.
'controlled slower acceleration' of the fingers on the grip hand.

I dont use a cue with a hard tip or a cue with a metal joint. The cue ball seems to rocket off the tip before I have a chance to feel the weight of the cue ball. I need to feel the cue ball for as long as I can.

I also use my grip hand fingers and wrist to propel the cue forward. Its not a loose grip or a tight grip.

Special note: Mosconi Cup tied at 5 each.

John

 

[Okie]

Not directly. The amount of spin you get on the cue ball is not determined by tip contact time. A harder tip will generate higher peak force on the ball for a shorter time. A softer tip will generate lower peak force on the ball for a longer time. The result is more of less the same speed and spin. You should choose your tip for other reasons, such as prestige and style, or maybe durability and ability to hold chalk and not miscue.

Dwelling on contact time is not useful in my opinion.

There is a hand-wavy argument that I more or less agree with that prolonging contact time is a bad thing if you want to get a large spin/speed ratio. The tip rides around the ball during off-center contacts. If it stays on the ball a long time, it will ride around to miscue territory.

Rides around the cue ball to miscue land...makes sense.

My question stems from the same feel/opinion that others are talking about here about the appearance of an extended contact time that good players seem to exhibit. Many times we think something is happening which is really not happening. It helps me a lot to be able to dispel myth and work with laws of the game instead.

Any techniques you would like to share on maximizing spin while minimizing speed for certain shots?

Thanks everyone for your input!

Ken

 

[One Pocket John]

I am not an instructor

Ken,

Your last post (maximizing spin) is not a good idea.

In almost all cases cue ball spin should be avoided or used very sparingly. Practice creating better angles on the shot to get to the next shot.

Stay as close to the vertical axis of the cue ball as you can. The mass of the cue ball is about the size of a quarter. You need to stay within the quarter for best feel and control.

Hope this helps. :smile:

John

 

[Okie]

I am not an instructor

Ken,

Your last post (maximizing spin) is not a good idea.

In almost all cases cue ball spin should be avoided or used very sparingly. Practice creating better angles on the shot to get to the next shot.

Stay as close to the vertical axis of the cue ball as you can. The mass of the cue ball is about the size of a quarter. You need to stay within the quarter for best feel and control.

Hope this helps. :smile:

John

I understand completely.

I find examining the extremes helps me to understand. Also. there are times when you need maximum spin.

Ken

 

[ENGLISH!]

I am not an instructor.

Thanks Rick good term.
'controlled slower acceleration' of the fingers on the grip hand.

I dont use a cue with a hard tip or a cue with a metal joint. The cue ball seems to rocket off the tip before I have a chance to feel the weight of the cue ball. I need to feel the cue ball for as long as I can.

I also use my grip hand fingers and wrist to propel the cue forward. Its not a loose grip or a tight grip.

Special note: Mosconi Cup tied at 5 each.

John

John,

Thanks, I hear you. I too use my wrist or allow the cue to use it. The question asking me about firming up my wrist made me think & 'real eyes' that at times I think that I do, for what was an unknown subconscious reason. I now think that at times I may be doing it as a 'quantity & quality contol' mechanism.

I noticed yesterday, that our team is not breaking as well as Europe & it seems that the table is breaking better from the left side. The only one I saw that went to that side was SVB. I hope they get the break down as that is a very big part of the difference so far.

Best Regards,

 

[sparkle84]

You should proofread your posts before spewing Scott.

First you say my question means nothing. Then you say it might lead to a bit of enlightenment.

Did you have anything constructive to add?

Ken

I think maybe you're misinterpreting Scott's remarks. Let me preface my remarks by saying I'm not one of Mr Lee's biggest fans. Probably somewhat unfair as I don't know him but I strongly disagree with the way he presents his arguments in many cases. It's rather abrasive at times. But sometimes we have to read between the lines. He wasn't saying your question means nothing, he was replying to my somewhat facetious question about "what does all this tip contact time have to do with playing better pool". Basically saying the same thing Mr Jewitt stated in a later post (Dwelling on contact time is not useful in my opinion). Bob just put it in a kinder, gentler fashion so to speak. All I, & they are saying is that knowing the physics ramifications of tip contact time has no bearing on improving your game.

Him ending with "Knowing that may result in learning how to play better." is in reference to people recognizing that what happens after the CB is gone is of little or no value. I don't want to put words in his mouth but I think he's just saying that concentrating on what's important will lead to greater improvement.

From one of your later posts it seems one of your goals is to improve your stroke. I took a look at your practice videos & actually your stroke looks pretty good. Trying to diagnose any problems from a video is difficult. I'm a fake instructor (unpaid) & definitely not a stroke doctor but I do have a couple observations FWTW. You can go back & watch the videos with what I'll describe in mind & see if you see the same thing.

Pay particular attention to the shots you miss. Not banks or real hard shots but shots you feel you should make all the time. What I noticed you doing on a good percentage of misses concerns the final backstroke & the finishing forward stroke. Many times you brought the cue back very quickly & then forward quickly with no pause at the end of the backstroke. Timing & smoothness are vital to a good stroke. Quick back & forth on the final stroke destroys both of them. Also causes problems with CB speed & thus, direction.

The other thing I noticed is that possibly your grip hand is slightly too far forward on the cue. Hopefully that's not too critical because changing that would be difficult. There's a relatively simple way to change someone's bridge length but I don't know how one would go about changing the distance between their bridge hand and grip hand. Probably not necessary anyway, just something I noticed. Maybe Scott Lee will take a look & offer his observations.

As far as maximizing english while minimizing speed there's no real secret to that. Timing, level cue, tip placement & smooooothness, above all. You might also try a much lighter & looser grip, that helps.

Good Luck

 

[ENGLISH!]

Interesting.

 

[Scott Lee]

Nothing for me to add here, other than I was not 'dissing' Ken's thread or opinion. I was, indeed, answering sparkle 84's question factually (facetious or not). People spend far too much time worrying about this kind of stuff, and don't pay enough attention to things that really matter...such as a loose grip, a repeatable process, and really good timing.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I think maybe you're misinterpreting Scott's remarks. Let me preface my remarks by saying I'm not one of Mr Lee's biggest fans. Probably somewhat unfair as I don't know him but I strongly disagree with the way he presents his arguments in many cases. It's rather abrasive at times. But sometimes we have to read between the lines. He wasn't saying your question means nothing, he was replying to my somewhat facetious question about "what does all this tip contact time have to do with playing better pool". Basically saying the same thing Mr Jewitt stated in a later post (Dwelling on contact time is not useful in my opinion). Bob just put it in a kinder, gentler fashion so to speak. All I, & they are saying is that knowing the physics ramifications of tip contact time has no bearing on improving your game.

Him ending with "Knowing that may result in learning how to play better." is in reference to people recognizing that what happens after the CB is gone is of little or no value. I don't want to put words in his mouth but I think he's just saying that concentrating on what's important will lead to greater improvement.

From one of your later posts it seems one of your goals is to improve your stroke. I took a look at your practice videos & actually your stroke looks pretty good. Trying to diagnose any problems from a video is difficult. I'm a fake instructor (unpaid) & definitely not a stroke doctor but I do have a couple observations FWTW. You can go back & watch the videos with what I'll describe in mind & see if you see the same thing.

Pay particular attention to the shots you miss. Not banks or real hard shots but shots you feel you should make all the time. What I noticed you doing on a good percentage of misses concerns the final backstroke & the finishing forward stroke. Many times you brought the cue back very quickly & then forward quickly with no pause at the end of the backstroke. Timing & smoothness are vital to a good stroke. Quick back & forth on the final stroke destroys both of them. Also causes problems with CB speed & thus, direction.

The other thing I noticed is that possibly your grip hand is slightly too far forward on the cue. Hopefully that's not too critical because changing that would be difficult. There's a relatively simple way to change someone's bridge length but I don't know how one would go about changing the distance between their bridge hand and grip hand. Probably not necessary anyway, just something I noticed. Maybe Scott Lee will take a look & offer his observations.

As far as maximizing english while minimizing speed there's no real secret to that. Timing, level cue, tip placement & smooooothness, above all. You might also try a much lighter & looser grip, that helps.

Good Luck

 

[Okie]

I think maybe you're misinterpreting Scott's remarks. Let me preface my remarks by saying I'm not one of Mr Lee's biggest fans. Probably somewhat unfair as I don't know him but I strongly disagree with the way he presents his arguments in many cases. It's rather abrasive at times. But sometimes we have to read between the lines. He wasn't saying your question means nothing, he was replying to my somewhat facetious question about "what does all this tip contact time have to do with playing better pool". Basically saying the same thing Mr Jewitt stated in a later post (Dwelling on contact time is not useful in my opinion). Bob just put it in a kinder, gentler fashion so to speak. All I, & they are saying is that knowing the physics ramifications of tip contact time has no bearing on improving your game.

Him ending with "Knowing that may result in learning how to play better." is in reference to people recognizing that what happens after the CB is gone is of little or no value. I don't want to put words in his mouth but I think he's just saying that concentrating on what's important will lead to greater improvement.

From one of your later posts it seems one of your goals is to improve your stroke. I took a look at your practice videos & actually your stroke looks pretty good. Trying to diagnose any problems from a video is difficult. I'm a fake instructor (unpaid) & definitely not a stroke doctor but I do have a couple observations FWTW. You can go back & watch the videos with what I'll describe in mind & see if you see the same thing.

Pay particular attention to the shots you miss. Not banks or real hard shots but shots you feel you should make all the time. What I noticed you doing on a good percentage of misses concerns the final backstroke & the finishing forward stroke. Many times you brought the cue back very quickly & then forward quickly with no pause at the end of the backstroke. Timing & smoothness are vital to a good stroke. Quick back & forth on the final stroke destroys both of them. Also causes problems with CB speed & thus, direction.

The other thing I noticed is that possibly your grip hand is slightly too far forward on the cue. Hopefully that's not too critical because changing that would be difficult. There's a relatively simple way to change someone's bridge length but I don't know how one would go about changing the distance between their bridge hand and grip hand. Probably not necessary anyway, just something I noticed. Maybe Scott Lee will take a look & offer his observations.

As far as maximizing english while minimizing speed there's no real secret to that. Timing, level cue, tip placement & smooooothness, above all. You might also try a much lighter & looser grip, that helps.

Good Luck

First off let me start by thanking you for taking the time to analyze my videos. I appreciate any and all input.

I agree completely on your analysis of my misses. As have many others when they have worked with me.

My objective is to smooth out the stroke. To do so I believe I have to dispel any and all myths in my head about how to spin whitey...or how not to spin it whatever the case may be.

The lighter and looser grip doesn't cut it for me. I have to find something else to key on to achieve the same thing. I am not saying the light and loose grip isn't proper as I think it is proper. I am saying focusing on that alone does not achieve my objectives. I have tried it for many months now.

As for Mr. Lee...I asked him a question and his lack of response answered me well enough. No sweat!

Lastly, the definition of an instructor is as follows: "One who instructs; a teacher." I would agree that we are not certified instructors. But I will never agree that we do not have anything of value to add. And as far as being right...everyone is wrong at some point...get over it and move on

Good stuff!

Ken

 

[Okie]

Nothing for me to add here, other than I was not 'dissing' Ken's thread or opinion. I was, indeed, answering sparkle 84's question factually (facetious or not). People spend far too much time worrying about this kind of stuff, and don't pay enough attention to things that really matter...such as a loose grip, a repeatable process, and really good timing.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Can you expand on the "really good timing" statement? When I think of timing in the stroke nothing seems to click for me. Are you referring to the tempo or maybe the rhythm of the stroke?

Thank you for your input!

Ken

 

[Bob Jewett]

...Any techniques you would like to share on maximizing spin while minimizing speed for certain shots?...

I think this is very well explained in Ron Shepard's paper on pool physics. See item 9 at http://www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm

 

[LWW]

I'm not an instructor ... but this is what I've learned, I pay better with a harder tip set to a dime radius. The one drawback to that is regular scuffing and chalking is a requirement.

 

[FranCrimi]

There is a hand-wavy argument that I more or less agree with that prolonging contact time is a bad thing if you want to get a large spin/speed ratio. The tip rides around the ball during off-center contacts. If it stays on the ball a long time, it will ride around to miscue territory.

While the above may be true scientifically, my experience with hard tips is that they are more prone to miscues on off-center hits than softer tips. Perhaps it's the issue of not holding chalk as well or smoothing out unusually fast and requiring constant roughing.

Regarding prolonged contact time, I think the Filipino stroke may be an example of that type of stroke, and many do play out on the edge of the cb, but I don't see miscues.

 

[ENGLISH!]

While the above may be true scientifically, my experience with hard tips is that they are more prone to miscues on off-center hits than softer tips. Perhaps it's the issue of not holding chalk as well or smoothing out unusually fast and requiring constant roughing.

Regarding prolonged contact time, I think the Filipino stroke may be an example of that type of stroke, and many do play out on the edge of the cb, but I don't see miscues.

Hi Fran,

Please excuse me for the following.

Maybe there should be two (2) ask the instructor forums. One for beginners, intermediate, etc. & one for more advanced players. Personally I think it would be a good adea.

Fran, I agree with you. Elk Master tips are very soft & impregnated with chalk. I play at the miscue envelope very, very often. While my stroke is not like Efren's etc., my tempo is very much the same. Efren plays with 'milk duds', Elk Masters soaked in milk & then pressed.

There are different parameters for achieveing equal amounts of spin. One of the most important shot desires, at times, is a high ratio of spin to foward speed or momentum. I am of the opinion that a softer tip allows one to get a larger spin to foward speed ratio than a hard tip. That is not to say that a hard tip can not get as much or even more spin than a soft tip, but it is all about the ratio.

When spinning a tennis ball or a golf ball the contact time with the ball is important. That is why a loosely strung racket can more easily spin a tennis ball & that is one of the reasons why the older, softer covered golf balls spun more. Throwing a curve ball in baseball is similiar per contact time.

I know that the contact time is very short, approximately one(1) to two (2) thousandths of a second. That is why any increase can be so valuable. That being said, I do not think anyone should be focused on it other than when choosing what tip one wants on their cue & why.

When shooting a shot were one desires a high spin to foward speed ratio, our minds will convey what stroke to use if we can just keep our brain out of the way.

Sorry Fran. I did not mean to come off as lecturing as I know that you know all of this. I was merely expressing my humble opinion.

Best Regards & Merry Christmas,