Tip radius... bad idea

itsfroze said:
An 11.75 tip is to flat with a nickle radii.
An 13.25 tip is to rounded with a dime radii.

Once a 13.25 tip wears down a little the edge
of a dime radii curve reaches right down to the
ferrule. You wouldn't have any tip side left to burnish.

A cue maker told me once the ferrule diameter tells
you what size radii to put on the tip.

Now have at it, this will be my only reply in this thread.
Enjoy ! :thumbup:
Click to expand...


A cue maker told me once the ferrule diameter tells
you what size radii to put on the tip...... <---- this was exactly my point
 
I've never really cared too much about using a specific radius on my playing shafts.

I do believe that the tip shape will confirm to you're playing characteristics, and you definitely need to know this.

For me, if I play with a 12.75mm shaft, I never have to shape the tip. The combination of center ball and off center hits keeps my tip where I like it. I couldn't tell you what that is, but it's where I like it.

If I play with an 11.75mm tip, which is what I normally play with, I have to shape the tip occasionally because it will get too flat for my liking. The reason is that I hit the cue ball a little closer to the center because the thinner shaft spins the cue ball a little bit more. I notice that the tip is flat when I loose some of the soft stroke draw spin. I like to hit really low on a short soft draw shot where I just need to pull it back a few inches. I lose the "zip" on these shots when my tip is a little fat. I may reshape my tip 2 or 3 times a year, and usually wear out the tip once a year or so.


Royce
 
Everybody would laugh at my tip if they saw it up close. It's lopsided from where I have my shaft marked on a certain side and I turn it to that side for every shot. I do not use an ld shaft however. John B.
.
 
nineballsafety8 said:
You are correct, and this is the exact point that I was making.
A nickel radius IS the SAME arc, however, it will perform COMPLETELY differently on different size tips.
This is where the tangent vector comes into play.
View attachment 345657
Imagine using max spin, with both tips... the larger shaft will impart much more spin that the smaller shaft, as the tangent vector of the larger shaft is much greater
Click to expand...
For a true comparison of the angles, you should be measuring the same distance out from the middle of the shaft to determine where to put the tangent lines, not in from the edge. When you do that, you'll see that the same tip offset on the CB produces the same angle on any 2 tips with the same radius, regardless of the shaft diameter. In any case, the primary contributor to the amount of english applied is the actual "contact point" (really the point at the center of the contact area) on the cue ball relative to the stroke vector. The larger tip has more contact area available around the edge, but if the tip has a dime radius, the excess area is beyond the miscue limit, so the tips are effectively the same. In the case of a nickel radius on a thin shaft, it is possible for the edge of the tip to still be within the miscue limit, which would give you some erratic behavior near that limit.
 
joelpope said:
Not at all... The radius determines the arc and a nickel radius is the same arc on any sized shaft

If your tip arc does not align with the arc of a nickel then you do not have a nickel radius... Very simple
Click to expand...

But the ouside downward curve is more on larger diameter shafts so the original poster is correct that different size shafts need different radius tips.
I have been telling people this for many years.
 
cueman said:
But the ouside downward curve is more on larger diameter shafts so the original poster is correct that different size shafts need different radius tips.
I have been telling people this for many years.
Click to expand...

Thank you Mr. Hightower!

Not that cueman knows anything about tips on shafts... YEAH RIGHT!
 
A nickely radius has always worked best for me. The ideal bevel arc would be closer to the actual bevel arc of the CB itself...but that would be nearly flat. I tried a dime bevel for a brief period, miss cued quite a bit. Almost NEVER miss cue with a nickel bevel, and for the portion of the CB I hit, it delivers the most direct force vector into the CB. I've seen a LOT of very good players play jam up with what we'd consider a very flat tip. Curvature is highly over rated and I think largely misunderstood. Johnny Archer used to bevel his tips dime sized, then flatten the middle. Lots of options, but the real difference doesn't come into play until you're well outside the miss cue limit. Your normal style of play and chalking will shape the tip itself, once you've given it that initial dress. You'll rarely miss cue if you just leave well enough alone.
 
The curvature of the tip has no bearing on how much english one can get on a cb. As Randy G. stated, the contact area is 3mm, no matter what size shaft or tip radius you use.

When referring to "tips of english", that 3mm should be ones reference, not the shaft size. This thread shows why that is. Spin is determined by how far from center one hits the cb. Far too many use the shaft size as their reference, and then think one shape tip, or one size shaft gets more or less english. You have to know what part of your tip is contacting the cb to accurately hit the cb where you intend to hit it.

One good example of this is with a dead center hit. Help someone line up their tip to dead center on the cb and freeze. Now, have them move the tip down to get one tip (3mm) of back spin. Look at how far they actually had to move the shaft to get that. Then have them go one more tip (3mm) of spin, and see how the amount of the shaft movement was very different than the first time.

If one goes strictly by the shaft diameter for tips of english, they will seldom be hitting the cb where they want to.
 
Royce and mark187187 are both on the money.

As both said, the larger tip means you get more of the semicircle, meaning the outer edge of the tip has a steeper tangent line, even though the curvature is the same.

But it doesn't matter because the miscue limit is still the limiting factor in extreme english shots where the outer edge of the tip would otherwise be in play. The offset from center-ball of the contact patch defines the miscue limit, and it's going to be the same for each shaft.

-Andrew
 
I think the real reason behind using "radius of a sphere" as the sole measurement of tip shape is that a shaping tool with a sphere surface is easy to manufacture and easy to use. By "ease to use" I mean when you trimmng a leather tip with a sphere grinding surface, it is self-aligning, you just can't do wrong with it even you are grinding around a wrong axis.

If it turns out a surface with a rotating paraboicial or hyperbolicial surface is the IDEAL tip shape, the accurate trimming of the tip will have to be done on a lathe, not by hand, even when you are holding a perfect shaped tool. Since you may easily misalign the center of the tip dome.
 
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JayKidd said:
I think the real reason behind using "radius of a sphere" as the sole measurement of tip shape is that a shaping tool with a sphere surface is easy to manufacture and easy to use. By "ease to use" I mean when you trimmng a leather tip with a sphere grinding surface, it is self-aligning, you just can't do wrong with it even you are grinding around a wrong axis.

If it turns out a surface with a rotating paraboicial or hyperbolicial surface is the IDEAL tip shape, the accurate trimming of the tip will have to be done on a lathe, not by hand, even when you are holding a perfect shaped tool. Since you may easily misalign the center of the tip dome.
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Nah, people have been making parabolic telescope mirrors by hand for a long time. You don't need to align to the center, just start "pushing glass" and it'll end up a parabola.
 
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