Tips of english or stroke?
- Thread starter Mikjary
- Start date
No you don't....I sometimes have a hard time dealing with these super human powers of mine. Just the other day my son told me that he could shoot fire out of his eyes and catch me on fire. I of course, had to set him down and explain that only Mommy could do such a thing.
It's tough being me.
Kinda like you have done a zillion times?
How about you show us some of your video proving that you can hit the ball close to center and get maximum spin?
I guess I should apologize to all the people I've beaten over the years. "Sorry I wasn't playing the right way and I still won."
Don't take this remark serious.
Like I said, "I know what works for me and it's way to late for me to change."
Don't take this remark serious.
Like I said, "I know what works for me and it's way to late for me to change."
At the end of the day that's all that counts. A lot of good and great players can't really explain exactly how they do what they do. Sometimes they explain it wrong but from their perspective what they are saying is absolutely the way it it's happening.
I related a story earlier about getting a lesson from Parica. No matter how many times Parica showed me what to do and said "hit it like this" I could not hit the ball as he told me to. Was it because I just didn't have the skill to execute like him or because I couldn't understand him? No, it's because he had developed the touch to do whatever he needed to do without ever needing to explain HOW to do it. Parica could never explain to me how the cue feels in his hands in a way that makes me snap to it and suddenly be able to hit the ball with the degree of touch that he has. So all he can do is try to explain it in the best terms he can and demonstrate it for me.
The thing is that if I work at it enough then eventually I SHOULD discover the right touch which would be proven by being able to duplicate the results.
I do certainly believe that experience trumps science when it comes to playing pool. Otherwise Bob Jewett would be the World Champion and Efren would be his rack boy. The chain smoking mafia wannabe hanging around the pool room all day and night wouldn't know Newton from Norton and yet he knows how to move the cue ball as if by mind control alone.
Pisses me off. I know more about pool than he ever will. And yet he plays better than I ever will because he has a touch that remains out of reach for me. Maybe less AZ and more table time....... one can dream.
Personally I think about the stroke.. I learned how to play from two guys that were stroke enthusiasts and I learned to live close to the center of the cue ball.. that just works for me personally. If I really needs to put any serious spin on the ball, i concern myself with put a real stroke on it... how many times have you seen a person cue the ball say 2 1/2 tips low because they really need to draw it, and then they execute and the ball barely moves an inch, but then you watch a guy with a good stroke use 1/2 a tip of draw, "hits" it half as hard as the other guy and it draws 13 feet...
all in all its what ever works for you...for me, stroke is the most important part of my game...when I'm stroking well, I don't miss much and my shape is loads better than the "out of sync" days...
Its like the argument of, which tip or shaft gets better spin... I was in a match once and I drew a ball three rails for shape with a less then medium stroke, but it was a really smooth one and this guy says, "Wow, you get a lot of action with that shaft!" I replied, "Yeah, the stroke has nothing to do with it though and thank goodness, cause it didn't come with the shaft."
Happy Stroking... yowser, that just sounds bad...
all in all its what ever works for you...for me, stroke is the most important part of my game...when I'm stroking well, I don't miss much and my shape is loads better than the "out of sync" days...
Its like the argument of, which tip or shaft gets better spin... I was in a match once and I drew a ball three rails for shape with a less then medium stroke, but it was a really smooth one and this guy says, "Wow, you get a lot of action with that shaft!" I replied, "Yeah, the stroke has nothing to do with it though and thank goodness, cause it didn't come with the shaft."
Happy Stroking... yowser, that just sounds bad...
This video of Parica shows the same stroke with draw. IMO, he should have used a conventional draw stroke instead, to let the cue ball deflect and come off of the rail before it drew back. He would have created a bigger angle and gotten better position.
He knew it as soon as he stroked it. Watch his reaction. Instead of flaming this stroke, why don't we discuss it. This is the stroke I was shown and it is a great tool for your game. If not, I'll let it go and we can go back to our comfort zones and common sense.
Thanks, Tom for the comments.
Best,
Mike
Parica uses a wrist flick that is hard for me to control.
Back to this vid of Efren:
At 1:18, it looks like he "swipes" down to the cloth on this draw shot.
At 2:20, It looks like he "swipes" up. His is stroking under his chin above the top of the rail, but on impact to the CB the cue drops to the top of the rail with the tip stroking up.
He doesn't "flick" but he uses his index finger and thumb to follow through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JM3FLwCrCk
Back to this vid of Efren:
At 1:18, it looks like he "swipes" down to the cloth on this draw shot.
At 2:20, It looks like he "swipes" up. His is stroking under his chin above the top of the rail, but on impact to the CB the cue drops to the top of the rail with the tip stroking up.
He doesn't "flick" but he uses his index finger and thumb to follow through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JM3FLwCrCk
When I am not on auto-pilot, I use tips of English measured in 1/8ths of an inch, with a max of 3/8" at a time.
Joe Villalpondo's (www.pooliq.net) videos details how you can obtain shape using his proportions of English. I'm not sure if both of them detail that or not. you can always give him a call to find out.
Joe Villalpondo's (www.pooliq.net) videos details how you can obtain shape using his proportions of English. I'm not sure if both of them detail that or not. you can always give him a call to find out.
I didnt mean to flame his stroke, only to understand the technique better. (To me the same shot looks like straight follow would be less risky, but what do I know.) I dont think it matters much, but it looks to me like parica only gets upset last second when he realizes the final contact hit is full.
I wish I could add something more, but I only use my wrist on the break. For some reason, wrist on the break for extra power seems to be more accepted than wrist for extra spin.
Notice the bolded part above. This is why I would like to discuss this stroke. I said conventional draw stroke to get the cue ball to deflect and get more angle off of the rail. What was it you thought I was trying to say? I completely understand the effects of power draw versus finesse.
This is not what this stroke is about. Whether it is hit hard or soft, the cue ball reaction is the same. No finesse. It is a firm, deliberate stroke that achieves quick spin. With draw, you can move backwards with much less deflection and avoid hitting other balls. It is strong for holding balls, even with a small angle.
I use it to pocket balls with a soft stroke and keep the cue ball movement to minimum with large amounts of spin. I used to use it years ago on the bar rags with the heavy cue ball. With the faster cloth I changed my game to use this stroke more often after a twenty year layoff. It's not new stuff. I was showed it a long time ago by a well known poster on this forum. He has obviously decided not to comment about it so far so I will respect his privacy.
Best,
Mike
Neil,
If you don't understand what someone is telling you, don't tell them they don't know what they are talking about. You keep repeating the same thing over and over about finessing the cue ball to create an angle. Got it...before the tutorial. In fact, I said the same thing in the other thread when Bambu first brought it up. Your point is noted. Would you mind if the rest of the forum discusses it?
I am trying to have a discussion on the stroke's physical makeup rather than using finesse as the only description. When you call it mystical and magical it tells me you are set in your ways and are not willing to open a dialogue about it. I'm not interested in getting a primer on how the cue ball reacts with draw. Can we move on or do you want me to be condescending, too and perpetuate this? I'll just put my tinfoil hat on and go away.
There are people reading this thread who are not posting and I was hoping to draw them out. They know the stroke. I have discussed it many times with several pro friends over the years. If you've never seen it or heard it before, why would you dispute it? This is starting to go the way of most aiming threads.
Best,
Mike
Count me in as wanting to learn "the stroke". My stroke SUCKS. Worse than ever before in my life. So I am eager to learn anything and everything that can help me to develop a better one.
This discussion has me playing around with spin and stroke techniques.
This discussion has me playing around with spin and stroke techniques.
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You know much more about this shot than I do but just some observations.
IMO Generally speaking in order to get more deflection the OB would need to be hit a little fuller. Just a tiny bit. With that he would have had to cheat the pocket or throw the OB further. Its a touchy shot at least for me.
I really think he simply didn't stroke it as well as he wanted. I'm not talking about the wrist. His timing was a tad bit off. One of the draw backs to learning and using different grips and different wrist actions that are relatively rarely needed/practiced.
Now as far as the wrist on this shot I think this technique is another way to "allow the cue to do the work." Here's a thread discussing another technique to achieve the same thing only the wrist is released or should I say put into action rather than releasing the cue. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=249866
I'm still puzzled about massive top spin hitting near center.