TOI vs TOO - CJ vs Mike Sigel

[HawaiianEye]

[/B]
When I was young I could spin the paint off the balls and learned to do all kinds of excessive shots that were impressive in exhibitions, however when I learned to play for money I had to tone that "fancy stuff" down (although I can still do it at will).

When I was young in my pool playing days, I used to play very well using "fancy" stuff and it always excited the people watching. However, over time, I toned the "fancy" stuff down and concentrated on playing a style similar to TOI where I attempted to "float" the cueball around and keep it out of trouble as much as I could. My winning percentages went way up! It DIDN'T look as fancy, but it was more deadly because the cueball was more on a string.

 

[Island Drive]

Personal Preference

To OP....

I look at this no different than a hook or a slice. Most golfers develop a natural tendency going from ''in too out'' or ''out to in, '' as your hitting thru the sweet spot coming across the cue/golf balls center mass. Most prefer cutting from right to left as others feel left to right is better....

In reality, like she said....I like it either way.

 

[naji]

Say what? It's supposed to be TOI to the shot, not to your body. With what you said, if you had a shot to the right, you would have TOO, not TOI.

Neil, it is way complicated stuff, it has nothing to do with spinning the CB, and I will keep it at that for now. If you like i can PM you.

 

[metallicane]

I have found TOO has helped me pocket more balls.

 

[naji]

I have found TOO has helped me pocket more balls.

There is a difference between the term (TOI, TOO) and putting RH, or LH spin on CB. I thought like you a while back, but it completely different than saying put english on CB. I will leave it at that.

 

[rhatten]

There is a difference between the term (TOI, TOO) and putting RH, or LH spin on CB. I thought like you a while back, but it completely different than saying put english on CB. I will leave it at that.

Accurate....Tap Tap

 

[SmoothStroke]

Its not complicated

Take a centennial ball. Put it on the table with the numbers facing up as straight as possible.
Take a quarter and place it right on top of the numbers so it is balanced and does not fall off. You will see only the outer ring of the numbers will be visible.
Play pool inside the center of the quarter, anything else is silly unless you need extreme English. The outer edge and ring is basically extreme.

Take a quarter place it flat, just using your shaft place the tip in the center, that is center cue ball, anything else right, left, high, low is now visually easier to see and understand. You can see you don't have to go to the edge of the quarter for spin, unless it's extreme.

It is easier to me to look at my cue ball as a quarter and not a 2-1/4'' Sphere, it's like trying to land the space shuttle in the center of the moon.
The diameter of a quarter is 15/16 or 24.26 mm. The diameter of a cue ball is 2-1/4'' or 57.15 mm.
To play solid pool you need to be extremely accurate. I think it's much easier to be accurate inside the quarter than it is to be in the moon...
Tip diameters and using the 1/4-1/2-3/4-full tip system of calculation is another story. When you play inside the quarter I measure tip diameter using the term eyelashes rather than say 1/2 tip.
Meaning: When playing inside the quarter it's easier to find center cue ball. When you can stay closer to center cue ball an eyelash left or right is spin with the proper stroke. Why bother to try and calculate tip size?
To play pool you need to use English.

12/15/13...Dated to Copyright

 

[SmoothStroke]

Also

You can also use an object ball with the numbers centered the best you can to find center or close to it. By using the quarter system it's just an easier visual when shooting at a blank cue ball.
Visuals are on the top of the list prior to execution

 

[Neil]

Neil, it is way complicated stuff, it has nothing to do with spinning the CB, and I will keep it at that for now. If you like i can PM you.

Thanks for the belly laugh, I needed that right now. (Sorry it was at your expense, but, hey, you said it).

Times like this I wish I had a lot of free money laying around to bet. Because I would bet anyone on earth that they cannot hit the cb off the vertical axis and not be putting english on it. That would be as much a lock bet as there ever was.

I've gone in depth on here on the fallacies of TOI several times. You will have to go back and read them, as Wilson considers telling the truth about it as harrasment to CJ, and I am no longer allowed to discuss things pertaining to his fallacies on here.

 

[DangerousDave]

Okay, this is not a snooker-versus-pool-pissing-contest-post, but playing for any length of time on a snooker table makes this kind of stuff really clear. On tables where it is harder to make balls in general, the best way to minimize variables and the possibility for error is by hitting centre ball. Anyone telling you otherwise has drank the Kool-Aid or is trying to sell you something.

There is no secret to make this game easier, and if there was it sure as shit wouldn't involve making it any more complicated. There are far too many placebos for sale in pool.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Okay, this is not a snooker-versus-pool-pissing-contest-post, but playing for any length of time on a snooker table makes this kind of stuff really clear. On tables where it is harder to make balls in general, the best way to minimize variables and the possibility for error is by hitting centre ball. Anyone telling you otherwise has drank the Kool-Aid or is trying to sell you something.

There is no secret to make this game easier, and if there was it sure as shit wouldn't involve making it any more complicated. There are far too many placebos for sale in pool.

My understanding is that a lot of snooker pros use gearing english (touch of outside) when balls aren't too far apart, fullish angle and stun is required.

 

[naji]

Thanks for the belly laugh, I needed that right now. (Sorry it was at your expense, but, hey, you said it).

Times like this I wish I had a lot of free money laying around to bet. Because I would bet anyone on earth that they cannot hit the cb off the vertical axis and not be putting english on it. That would be as much a lock bet as there ever was.

I've gone in depth on here on the fallacies of TOI several times. You will have to go back and read them, as Wilson considers telling the truth about it as harrasment to CJ, and I am no longer allowed to discuss things pertaining to his fallacies on here.

I laughed too, you are funny. Seriously, i am going to be courageous enough and say it, It has nothing to do with english or spinning the cue ball. I cannot say it on public forum sorry. You can continue your laughter. I actually played on snooker table, and played best i have ever played on a snooker table, making at least more than 12 shots where cue ball is at least 10 feet away from ob, it is not really really TOI, it is close.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Anyone that doesn't understand how to "move or throw" the cue ball will not progress

When I was young in my pool playing days, I used to play very well using "fancy" stuff and it always excited the people watching. However, over time, I toned the "fancy" stuff down and concentrated on playing a style similar to TOI where I attempted to "float" the cueball around and keep it out of trouble as much as I could. My winning percentages went way up! It DIDN'T look as fancy, but it was more deadly because the cueball was more on a string.

Yes, you understand that the "Touch of Inside" is about TOUCH.....wow, what a concept.

TOI does allow the player to create more of a margin of error where it's needed - AT THE CUE BALL. I think it's funny when I hear players talk about trying to use "center ball," when their logic has kept them at the same level for most of their life.

To reach the highest (or higher) level of play one MUST learn how to hit off center on purpose on most shots....the exception is the straight in ones and when "slow rolling" (for obvious reasons).

TOI and TOO accomplish many of the same benefits, one is using {the majority} spin (TOO) and the other is using {the majority} deflection (TOI). In every game, whether it's tennis, golf, or bowling the players use the technique of curving the ball, {or forcing it OFF the straight line} for increased touch and accuracy.

Anyone that doesn't understand how to "move or throw" the cue ball accurately will not progress to an accomplished level of performance, especially under pressure....... that's a fact! 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[BeiberLvr]

Thanks for the belly laugh, I needed that right now. (Sorry it was at your expense, but, hey, you said it).

Times like this I wish I had a lot of free money laying around to bet. Because I would bet anyone on earth that they cannot hit the cb off the vertical axis and not be putting english on it. That would be as much a lock bet as there ever was.

I've gone in depth on here on the fallacies of TOI several times. You will have to go back and read them, as Wilson considers telling the truth about it as harrasment to CJ, and I am no longer allowed to discuss things pertaining to his fallacies on here.

Correct.

TOI works in it's own way, but there is spin, just not as much as if you were to hit further away from center.

 

[APA BRIAN]

If anyone thinks these guys just use one type of english just doesn't understand the game. Whatever english CJ or Mike needs...thats what they will use. Its like a pitcher with a great curve ball, or someone with a particular shot. They market it, and try to get some dough. Maybe on the SHOTS where its acceptable to use one or the other one player will prefer to use one english (outside or insider depending on preference) but if they need follow, they use follow\. If CJ needs outside english to reach position and inside isn't available he'll use outside just fine. And if Mike needs inside english to avoid hitting a ball he certainly can do that too.
DO NOT try to find they hidden grail in all of this, it doesn't exist these guys are GREAT, and no particular English they use, even if its consistently is going to allow the common player their control. Sorry to break the news, there are no secrets... you just aren't as good.
And not to get anybody down..but...Mike is very......VERY generous with compliments...always thought he could tone that down a notch or two....Yes Mike if everybody can really "play" nobody can..God bless him.

 

[liakos]

Yes, you understand that the "Touch of Inside" is about TOUCH.....wow, what a concept.

TOI does allow the player to create more of a margin of error where it's needed - AT THE CUE BALL. I think it's funny when I hear players talk about trying to use "center ball," when their logic has kept them at the same level for most of their life.

To reach the highest (or higher) level of play one MUST learn how to hit off center on purpose on most shots....the exception is the straight in ones and when "slow rolling" (for obvious reasons).

TOI and TOO accomplish many of the same benefits, one is using {the majority} spin (TOO) and the other is using {the majority} deflection (TOI). In every game, whether it's tennis, golf, or bowling the players use the technique of curving the ball, {or forcing it OFF the straight line} for increased touch and accuracy.

Anyone that doesn't understand how to "move or throw" the cue ball accurately will not progress to an accomplished level of performance, especially under pressure....... that's a fact! 'The Game is the Teacher'

"Touch" is what most people lack! Perception is something that most can't explain! Bottom line to me,,, no one can explain this, it just needs to be learned! Some learn quicker than others! And some dedicate more time to perfecting there skills! People need to realize that the game, overall, is extremely difficult! I think this is why I fell in love with it I love the challenge!

 

[YubaCushion]

Correct.

TOI works in it's own way, but there is spin, just not as much as if you were to hit further away from center.

"Hitting further away from center will give you more spin." "TOI Works in it's own way."
Your sense of the obvious knows no bounds, and redundancy such as this comes around only once in a lifetime. Bravo.

 

[BeiberLvr]

"Hitting further away from center will give you more spin." "TOI Works in it's own way."
Your sense of the obvious knows no bounds, and redundancy such as this comes around only once in a lifetime. Bravo.

Huh?

It's not that TOI works. It's that CJ and other's believe there is no spin involved.

 

[YubaCushion]

Huh?

It's not that TOI works. It's that CJ and other's believe there is no spin involved.

If you look at he definition of spin, it means to twirl rapidly. By that definition the ball would be rotating several times per inch before contact. So actually, there is no "spin" involved. Hitting off of center on short shots the ball in some cases wouldn't even rotate once before making contact. Maybe a few times on longer shots, but it's still not spinning.

 

[naji]

Huh?

It's not that TOI works. It's that CJ and other's believe there is no spin involved.

I used to think CJ is marketing a product falsely, until i recently got to understand TOI/TOO. No i do not know CJ or bought his dvd. For those that wants to find out on their own, get ready to a 20 years before you get there, i wish CJ's knowledge was available to us then, i highly appreciate him for even telling about it on AZB.

But to answer you, at times there will be no spin involved at all with TOI, that is all i can say on a public forum.