# Too much English, Which tip shape to help?

#### asbani

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please forgive me if this question came up before.

I'm not talking about normal one to two tips outside of center English, I'm speaking of too much english, three tips maybe, when you put too much of Left English, or Right English, or even Draw real LOW english.

Which shape would help you not to miscue on this kind of shot, I've seen Earl Strickland talks about hitting shots , specially in his Exhibitions, as I'm sure most of you seen his crazy spins around the table, and around balls.

Earl Said that he likes his tip to be too rounded, if you look at it, you would see that the shape is almost like when you see a half a ball if you know what I mean, Too much Round, as if you cut a ball into half and put up on the cue.

My question is will this shape helps to generate more english, and will it also help the Tip to put a grab on the cueball which will lead to not Miscue?

I think about it with my common sense understanding of physic law, and it make sense to me, what do you think?

#### cfrandy

Silver Member
Please forgive me if this question came up before.

I'm not talking about normal one to two tips outside of center English, I'm speaking of too much english, three tips maybe, when you put too much of Left English, or Right English, or even Draw real LOW english.

Which shape would help you not to miscue on this kind of shot, I've seen Earl Strickland talks about hitting shots , specially in his Exhibitions, as I'm sure most of you seen his crazy spins around the table, and around balls.

Earl Said that he likes his tip to be too rounded, if you look at it, you would see that the shape is almost like when you see a half a ball if you know what I mean, Too much Round, as if you cut a ball into half and put up on the cue.

My question is will this shape helps to generate more english, and will it also help the Tip to put a grab on the cueball which will lead to not Miscue?

I think about it with my common sense understanding of physic law, and it make sense to me, what do you think?

First let me say, "English" refers to side spin only. Draw or follow is not "English". If you are miscuing a lot, the tip is NOT your problem!
Most tips are manicured to the circumference of a nickel or a dime. Some would say the dime shape can help spin the ball better. However, the abilty to apply spin comes from many factors. Most importantly, your stroke must be sound. Then comes factors such as the porosity of the cue tip, the size of cue tip, the weight of the cue ball, chalk...etc. Understand this, with English comes a lot of things that can affect your aim...throw, swerve, and squirt. Common sense tells you to use as little English as possible!

#### DallasHopps

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I used a tip shaping tool made from 1/2" PVC cut in half with sandpaper glued in it to experiment with tip shaping. For reference, 3/4" PVC is a good match to a dime radius (and makes cheap tip tools).
I did not like it even a little bit, the contact point on the tip seemed too small to use consistently for off-center hits. Then again, I'll never be mentioned in the same conversation as Earl.

#### angldemn

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I personally use a 3/4 inch radius tool I made by running a round router bit through a nice piece of black palm wood.

I keep my tips shaped(probably a lot more than necessary) and I love the way this shape plays.

#### thintowin

##### thin2win
Silver Member
if u are trying to prevent a perceived problem of over spin and want to utilize your equipment to correct this perceived problem then you might try a thicker shaft (above 13 mm). When I was younger I used cues that had a diameter shaft of 12.75 and lower. My game at that time had plenty of cue ball movement. I won a JossWest in a pool game with a 13.75 diameter shaft and as I began to play withn the cue the spin impaired on the cue ball was noticeably less. I liked my game with the thicker shaft and still use them today. Good luck.

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
dime radius supposedly helps get more spin but as mentioned before tip size chalk your stroke etc also are important factors
as for tip shapers and scuffers to me the last4ever tip tool is the absolute best and you can by a dime or nickle radious one for your preferential shape
http://www.last4ever.net/

#### JoeyA

##### Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
The diameter of the tip matters to me. I don't like a dime radius tip for 11.75mm tips. They are just too small for a dime curvature.

As far as using enormous amounts of side spin, I am not particularly fond of that unless it is a very easy pocketable object ball and even then I traditionally only use enough side spin to get the shape I need.

Earl is a talent, but you must play within YOUR STRENGTHS, not someone else's specialty.

I see MANY top players using cue tips that are almost FLAT with very little curvature.

Experiment with different curvatures and find the one that suits you best.

#### randyg

##### www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
Tip size nor tip shape would have much to do with spin. Although a smaller tip may give us a better view on the cue ball, any size tip could produce spin.

Remember one thing: Regardless of tip size, only about 3mm of the tip will strike the cueball.

randyg

#### duckie

##### GregH
Silver Member
FWIW
Nickel Dia-21.21mm .835 in
Dime Dia- 17.91mm .705 in
----------------------------
Diff 3.3mm .13 in

----------------------------
Diff 1.65mm .065 in

Shaft Dia
12mm .472440 in
13mm .511811 in

Whats this all mean?

If you were take the rad given for a nickel and dime and then drew both on the same drawing that represented a 13 mm shaft, you'll be surprised how little difference there is between a dime and nickel radius's.

#### asbani

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for all the feedback, but DoubleD you really nailed it, you knew exactly what I was asking...

of course I do know that stroke, and other may play factor into it, and I didn't exactly ask help for my miscues, I don't miscue often, I just wanted to know which shape could strike off center further and make a good solid hit, be it far below on cueball, or far top, or far left/right, and DoubleD answered it.

#### randyg

##### www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
Good math, poor engineering.

You are looking at the wrong numbers. The number that actually matters is the maximum angle that the arc sweeps from the axis of the shaft. This angle has a lot to do with how far you actually have to move the shaft off of the center of the cue ball to strike the same point.

For a dime radius, the sweep is ~46.5deg., for the nickel it is only ~37.8deg.. Which is better? In theory (and assuming an infinite coefficient of friction) the dime would let you hit further off center. What is practical, I don't know or care--I just want to point out the invalidity of your math.

dld

Let's say that we are applying right hand spin. Therefore the 3mms on the left side of our tip will be striking the cue ball.

Isn't it the same 3mms regardless of tip shape?

Thanks
randyg

#### Hits 'em Hard

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First let me say, "English" refers to side spin only. Draw or follow is not "English". If you are miscuing a lot, the tip is NOT your problem!

English is the spin put on the cue ball when contacted by the cue tip. Draw and follow are both forms of English. Draw is also called bottom English, follow is also called top English. English is the term describing the spin on the ball.

As for the original question, the easiest way to visualize it is to break, aim center ball, then look at your tip. How big is that mark from breaking? One, two or three mm big? Take half of that size of mark, we'll use 2mm as the mark size, so we have 1mm now, now look at the tip of your cue, imagine that there's a ring on your tip 1mm from the edge. That ring is the point at which you will go from controlled english to miscues. Basically the 2mm size circle from the break shows you how much of the cue tip must hit the cue ball in order to not miscue(bad chalking habits aside). On a nickel curve tip, you will reach that line before your dime curve tip will, on a 13mm tip. The math is hard to explain, but the arc length from the center of the tip to the edge of the tip is shorter on a nickel round, vs the dime round. The longer the distance from center of your tip to the edge will allow for the cue ball to hit farther from the center.

#### randyg

##### www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
Thanks DoubleD.

Not much difference at all.

RANDYG

#### duckie

##### GregH
Silver Member
Good math, poor engineering.

You are looking at the wrong numbers. The number that actually matters is the maximum angle that the arc sweeps from the axis of the shaft. This angle has a lot to do with how far you actually have to move the shaft off of the center of the cue ball to strike the same point.

For a dime radius, the sweep is ~46.5deg., for the nickel it is only ~37.8deg.. Which is better? In theory (and assuming an infinite coefficient of friction) the dime would let you hit further off center. What is practical, I don't know or care--I just want to point out the invalidity of your math.

dld

There is no engineering involved in my statement. I put out the numbers for a dime and nickel and made the statement that there is not that much difference between the two when drawn on a 13 mm shaft.

Your drawing proved this to be true. You use the same numbers I posted.

I just don't get your post unless it's to make you feel better than someone else and show off.

I engineered nothing, but provided facts.

My point really is that people talk about this stuff at times but never put pen to paper to actually see what they are talking about.

I didn't post my drawing , which is just like yours, except by hand. I didn't cause I want to make people think for themselves about some of this stuff.

Oh by the way, doing a drawing that shows real facts/data in not the same as engineering something.

#### angldemn

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For a dime radius, the sweep is ~46.5deg., for the nickel it is only ~37.8deg..

Looking through everyone's thoughts is very interesting, and it's made me change my thoughts about my preference of cue tip shape.

I think DoubleD has a valid point. Anything past(or close to) 37.8 degrees on the cue ball with a nickel radius will most likely miscue whereas a dime will go closer to 46.5 degrees. Since torque is roughly the distance from the center time multiplied by the force parallel with the cue, even at that small a distance it should create a noticeable increase the spin.

However, the extra distance from the center of the ball will also result in an increase in the perpendicular component of the force on the cue ball reducing the parallel force. This negates the effect somewhat.

So, perhaps the dime shape does really not induce more spin, but it grants a higher margin of error in the range of maximum spin without miscueing.

In conclusion, though I haven't worked the numbers, I "believe" the dime radius is still probably superior.

#### jay helfert

##### Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Please forgive me if this question came up before.

I'm not talking about normal one to two tips outside of center English, I'm speaking of too much english, three tips maybe, when you put too much of Left English, or Right English, or even Draw real LOW english.

Which shape would help you not to miscue on this kind of shot, I've seen Earl Strickland talks about hitting shots , specially in his Exhibitions, as I'm sure most of you seen his crazy spins around the table, and around balls.

Earl Said that he likes his tip to be too rounded, if you look at it, you would see that the shape is almost like when you see a half a ball if you know what I mean, Too much Round, as if you cut a ball into half and put up on the cue.

My question is will this shape helps to generate more english, and will it also help the Tip to put a grab on the cueball which will lead to not Miscue?

I think about it with my common sense understanding of physic law, and it make sense to me, what do you think?

#### angldemn

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

The author does seem to have a similar opinion about tip shape.

"The smaller, rounder shape allows for a more uniform contact area as the tip offset is increased. If you have a copy of my book, this is illustrated in Figure 2.2 on pg. 18. This could help make miscues less likely at large tip offsets."

It's all these subtle differences between players, conditions, and experiences that make it a beautiful game.

#### Cdryden

Silver Member
Please forgive me if this question came up before.

I'm not talking about normal one to two tips outside of center English, I'm speaking of too much english, three tips maybe, when you put too much of Left English, or Right English, or even Draw real LOW english.

Which shape would help you not to miscue on this kind of shot, I've seen Earl Strickland talks about hitting shots , specially in his Exhibitions, as I'm sure most of you seen his crazy spins around the table, and around balls.

Earl Said that he likes his tip to be too rounded, if you look at it, you would see that the shape is almost like when you see a half a ball if you know what I mean, Too much Round, as if you cut a ball into half and put up on the cue.

My question is will this shape helps to generate more english, and will it also help the Tip to put a grab on the cueball which will lead to not Miscue?

I think about it with my common sense understanding of physic law, and it make sense to me, what do you think?

Try learning how to manipulate the cue ball without using any english at first. Use center ball hits only for a few weeks during practice. Once you get a good grasp of how that works you can begin to experiment with spin.
As far as getting too much spin I think it is more a error in mechanics and execution than equipment. Good luck to ya.

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Earl Said that he likes his tip to be too rounded...

My question is will this shape helps to generate more english, and will it also help the Tip to put a grab on the cueball which will lead to not Miscue
FYI, some information on this topic can be found here:

Enjoy,
Dave

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