Too much English, Which tip shape to help?

naji

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please forgive me if this question came up before.

I'm not talking about normal one to two tips outside of center English, I'm speaking of too much english, three tips maybe, when you put too much of Left English, or Right English, or even Draw real LOW english.

Which shape would help you not to miscue on this kind of shot, I've seen Earl Strickland talks about hitting shots , specially in his Exhibitions, as I'm sure most of you seen his crazy spins around the table, and around balls.

Earl Said that he likes his tip to be too rounded, if you look at it, you would see that the shape is almost like when you see a half a ball if you know what I mean, Too much Round, as if you cut a ball into half and put up on the cue.

My question is will this shape helps to generate more english, and will it also help the Tip to put a grab on the cueball which will lead to not Miscue?

I think about it with my common sense understanding of physic law, and it make sense to me, what do you think?

As long as the tip has some curvature; small tip 11.75, or 12mm helps, but most important is follow through, and loose grip, the longer the follow through the more spin, especially for long shots. Make sure you allow for cue deflection on fast shots, as well as swerve on low speed shots, watch cue elevation..
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Tip size nor tip shape would have much to do with spin. Although a smaller tip may give us a better view on the cue ball, any size tip could produce spin.

Remember one thing: Regardless of tip size, only about 3mm of the tip will strike the cueball.

randyg


Thanks god usualy the *right answers* can be soooooo short :)
Hope you re doing good Randy, have a good time.

lg
Ingo
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
This isn't going to be the answer your looking for but I think it can help you quite a bit.
Try learning how to manipulate the cue ball without using any english at first. Use center ball hits only for a few weeks during practice. Once you get a good grasp of how that works you can begin to experiment with spin.
As far as getting too much spin I think it is more a error in mechanics and execution than equipment. Good luck to ya.

VERY GOOD advice! A Rep worth (not able atm :p).
There are so amazing many players who are not able to play 3 shots in a row without *leaving the vertical zone* on the CB.
Even advanced players still have often problems to handle the vertical line- by far the most important thing if it s about cueball-control, timing and correct alignment.
But usualy i think i m talking with walls-- they all know already everything, and they don t want to work on such things- and in my opinion just because they KNOW HOW HARD that can be!


@ the most guys who answered in this thread- Perhaps read Mr. Goettlicher s Posting again- and then rethink your responses. His response was the only necessary answere til now. To talk about shape etc is try and error for everyone, just personal preference.

lg from overseas,

Ingo
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
The
I see MANY top players using cue tips that are almost FLAT with very little curvature.

.

This reminds me. Johnny Archer showed us how his tip is shaped and more importantly why during his clinic recently. That one thing alone I believe was worth the entire price of admission. My eyes were opened big time. Miscuing has almost vanished and I'm drawing futher and more consistently than I ever have before in my life. It turns out the shape of my tip was my bottle neck to improve these skills and I didn't even realize it. Same cue, same tip different shape. It doesn't use any coin profile making the nickle-dime argument moot. Thanks JA!!
 

mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv
Silver Member
samething

I personally use a 3/4 inch radius tool I made by running a round router bit through a nice piece of black palm wood.

I keep my tips shaped(probably a lot more than necessary) and I love the way this shape plays.

i do the same thing .
MMike
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
This is what JA told us. Made sense immediately and makes a big difference in practice.

Your results may vary!!

JC


_DSC5183.jpg
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Here's a drawing I've posted before on this topic. It shows four tips touching the cue ball at 30 degrees offset from center (about halfway from center to edge), which is about where the miscue limit is no matter what the size or shape of your tip.

There are two shaft diameters shown: top = 12.75mm; bottom = 10mm.
There are two tip shapes shown: left = nickel radius; right = dime radius.

As you can see, the larger diameter shaft (at top) contacts the cue ball farther from its edge at the miscue limit, and there's room at the edge of the tip to spare with either tip shape. This is because a 60-degree arc (30 degrees in each direction) on a nickel or dime radius is smaller than 12.75mm wide.

The smaller diameter shaft (at bottom) still has a small amount of room at the edge of the tip with the dime shape, but is right on the edge with the nickel shape. This is because a 60-degree arc (30 degrees in each direction) on a nickel radius is just about 10mm wide and on a dime radius it's just a little less than 10mm wide.

Conclusions:
- Nickel or dime radius only makes a difference on very small diameter tips.
- On very small tips it's better to have a dime radius than a nickel radius.


pj
chgo

Tips Shafts & Miscue Limits.jpg
 
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JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
Here's a drawing I've posted before on this topic. It shows four tips touching the cue ball at 30 degrees offset from center (about halfway from center to edge), which is about where the miscue limit is no matter what the size or shape of your tip.

There are two shaft diameters shown: top = 12.75mm; bottom = 10mm.
There are two tip shapes shown: left = nickel radius; right = dime radius.

As you can see, the larger diameter shaft (at top) contacts the cue ball farther from its edge at the miscue limit, and there's room at the edge of the tip to spare with either tip shape. This is because a 30-degree arc on a nickel or dime radius is smaller than 12.75mm wide.

The smaller diameter shaft (at bottom) still has a small amount of room at the edge of the tip with the dime shape, but is right on the edge with the nickel shape. This is because a 30-degree arc on a nickel radius is just over 10mm wide and on a dime radius it's just about 10mm wide.

Conclusions:
- Nickel or dime radius only makes a difference on very small diameter tips.
- On very small tips it's better to have a dime radius than a nickel radius.


pj
chgo

View attachment 224657

Nice drawing. Can you see how the flattening of the contact area makes for a larger contact surface at the miscue limit? It's not that much but it makes a big difference since a round to round contact renders the smallest contact area possible between the two objects. Flattening that contact area expands the grip a ton if you look at it as a percentage of friction. Since the tip compresses slightly on a firm hit you expand your contact a great deal with a flat surface at the point of your tip which contacts the ball at miscue limit. Try it, you will be amazed at how much difference that subtle shape change makes. Forget about nickle and dime.

JC
 

incognito

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wouldn't a smaller tip diameter allow you to impart more spin on the cue ball? For example, if you used max spin with both a 13mm tip and a 12mm tip, wouldn't the 12mm tip give you more side spin?

Tip size nor tip shape would have much to do with spin. Although a smaller tip may give us a better view on the cue ball, any size tip could produce spin.

Remember one thing: Regardless of tip size, only about 3mm of the tip will strike the cueball.

randyg
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Can you see how the flattening of the contact area makes for a larger contact surface at the miscue limit?
No. In fact, I see a problem - a flat tip surface can only contact the ball's surface at one place: where the ball's surface is at the same angle as the tip's surface. So, for instance, in order for the tip's flat surface to contact the ball's surface at the miscue limit, the tip's surface must be angled at 30 degrees - but then at any offset less than 30 degrees the tip will make contact on the "transition edge" where the flat surface changes angles or somewhere else.

The reason we use rounded tips is so there's a matching tip surface angle for all ball surface angles (up to ~30 degrees).

pj
chgo
 
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champ2107

Banned
Nice drawing. Can you see how the flattening of the contact area makes for a larger contact surface at the miscue limit? It's not that much but it makes a big difference since a round to round contact renders the smallest contact area possible between the two objects. Flattening that contact area expands the grip a ton if you look at it as a percentage of friction. Since the tip compresses slightly on a firm hit you expand your contact a great deal with a flat surface at the point of your tip which contacts the ball at miscue limit. Try it, you will be amazed at how much difference that subtle shape change makes. Forget about nickle and dime.

JC

this is interesting!! and archer believes this? :thumbup: so the middle is flat and outside quarters are angled but not rounded off? im going to have to check my tip out now.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Incognito:
Wouldn't a smaller tip diameter allow you to impart more spin on the cue ball? For example, if you used max spin with both a 13mm tip and a 12mm tip, wouldn't the 12mm tip give you more side spin?
Nope. You can only hit the cue ball about 30 degrees offcenter no matter what size tip you use - this is the cue ball's miscue limit. You can hit 30 degrees offcenter with a large or a small tip (see my drawing above), so neither one allows you to "get more" sidespin.

In fact, you could theoretically hit farther offcenter with a larger tip (because it covers more arc for the same curvature), but anything over ~30 degrees is impossible anyway.

pj
chgo
 

robsnotes4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
flattened tips

The diameter of the tip matters to me. I don't like a dime radius tip for 11.75mm tips. They are just too small for a dime curvature.

As far as using enormous amounts of side spin, I am not particularly fond of that unless it is a very easy pocketable object ball and even then I traditionally only use enough side spin to get the shape I need.

Earl is a talent, but you must play within YOUR STRENGTHS, not someone else's specialty.

I see MANY top players using cue tips that are almost FLAT with very little curvature.

Experiment with different curvatures and find the one that suits you best.

Noticed the same thing with a lot of guys in New Town, in fact, Lee Heuwagon was miscuing and he went the to the Cue Repair Guy, and he said with layered tips your tip should be more flat than curved for better performance. I took the time to look at Shane's tip, and other well known players and saw this trend.
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
this is interesting!! and archer believes this? :thumbup: so the middle is flat and outside quarters are angled but not rounded off? im going to have to check my tip out now.

All I can say is try it. It takes about 2 minutes to reshape your tip like this. JA believes this because it works. He didn't go out of his way to tell us this. It was in response to him helping one of our guys to draw better and the subject of tip shape came up.

I have never been able to draw the cue ball back to it's starting spot from six diamonds away with accuracy before I reshaped my tip like this. I can now do it with confidence. It's the same result, soft or hard tip. I have cues with both types.

JC
 

champ2107

Banned
All I can say is try it. It takes about 2 minutes to reshape your tip like this. JA believes this because it works. He didn't go out of his way to tell us this. It was in response to him helping one of our guys to draw better and the subject of tip shape came up.

I have never been able to draw the cue ball back to it's starting spot from six diamonds away with accuracy before I reshaped my tip like this. I can now do it with confidence. It's the same result, soft or hard tip. I have cues with both types.

JC

i will try it :thumbup:
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
This is not a direct answer but might help with miscuing:

- Speed matters a lot when miscuing. Hitting hard with extreme draw is more likely to miscue than a soft hit. Think of it this way... when you hit at the very edge of the ball, you're not hitting the main mass of the ball, just a little sliver at the bottom of it. The ball won't depart from your tip as quickly as it would if you were hitting the central mass.

So what happens is this (I believe... maybe dr. dave has video to confirm): it doesn't run away from the incoming tip very fast, and the incoming tip actually strikes it twice. The ball doesn't have time to get out of the way of the tip. So you get a double hit and on the second hit, the part that's hitting the ball is the edge of the tip or even the ferrule. Then you get that awkward silence when everyone hears that noise you just made.

Bottom line is, if you are using extreme draw or sidespin, don't hit hard... let the spin do the work. In fact, for draw specifically, it was found that on long shots, hitting a little higher than the 'miscue limit' will actually get you better draw than hitting as low as humanly possible. If you find yourself tempted to use wild extreme draw, instead consider using normal draw that's nowhere near a miscue, and just hitting a bit harder.

For sidespin, super extreme sidespin should be done softly anyway because then it will get maximum 'take' off the rail. Hitting hard with extreme sidespin usually works against you.
 

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very nice drawing... now I see why the larger radius would not work as well. It was just a question in my mind, but I rarely go against the grain or traditional proven methods.
 
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