Top Ten American Born 14:1 Players

[sjm]

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe you would pass up a Hall of Fame player like Lou Butera in favor of Danny Harriman and Pete Margo. Yes, Danny is an excellent player and he definitely belongs on your "Active" list. Pete was also a great player in his day. However, neither could match Lou in his prime. I know it is difficult to compare players in a thread like this, but I have to respectfully disagree with your choices, as I'm sure you disagree with mine.

I respect your opinion, and I'm well familiar with all of these players and saw all of them play often in their primes. Perhaps, Margo just happened to always play perfect pool when I was around. Harriman vs Butera is almost a coin toss in my view. If I were a betting man, I'd guess that Margo had the highest Balls per inning of the three and Harriman the second highest.

Wonder if anyone on the forum has these figures.

Finally, only early retirement kept Margo out of the hall of fame. His skills were certainly comparable to many who are in the hall fo fame.

 

[Williebetmore]

I respect your opinion, and I'm well familiar with all of these players and saw all of them play often in their primes. Perhaps, Margo just happened to always play perfect pool when I was around. Harriman vs Butera is almost a coin toss in my view. If I were a betting man, I'd guess that Margo had the highest Balls per inning of the three and Harriman the second highest.

Wonder if anyone on the forum has these figures.

Finally, only early retirement kept Margo out of the hall of fame. His skills were certainly comparable to many who are in the hall fo fame.

sjm,
As usual, I couldn't find anything to dispute on your lists.

An interesting consideration is Shaun Wilkie. I would be quite interested to see how he would fare in head-to-head competition against Barouty, Lipsky, Hunter, Williams, and Maidhof. I am not sure his overall knowledge could compare to any of them (except Williams); but he sure impressed me as knowing more than any of the "9-ball shotmakers" like Shuff, McCreesh, Davis (and Williams too). His shotmaking may well be superior to some mentioned on your active player list.

I doubt you can rely on my observation, but if you get a chance to sweat a Wilkie match, I would be VERY interested in your opinion (Charlie could well lose his spot on the coveted "sjm list").

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I've a question about the inclusion of Charlie Williams. What has he won or placed high in as far as significant straight pool tournaments go? I'm not slamming him, I just really don't know much about his straight pool record. I know he won the challenge earlier this year but am not familiar with his tournament record in major events. I have the DVD's of the 2006 14.1 World Championships where he co-narrated a few of the matches and he professed to being new and relatively uneducated about the game. Has he really done that much in straight pool to put him in the top ten? If so I sure have to give him credit for being such a quick study. :grin:

Thanks.

 

[Rich93]

Hey, Bobby, hope you're well.

Yeah, I gave serious consideration to Balsis. Joe is a unique story. He was a great junior player who stopped competing, only to return in his forties to what you have accurately described as sustained excellence. If I look at my last three, however, Ray Martin, Eddie Kelly and Luther Lassiter, I can't say i have any regrets. Ray won three world 14.1 championships, Eddie Kelly was a world 14.1 champion and had a good track record in 14.1 at Johnston City, and Lassiter, though not quite the pattern player that most of the others on my "all-time" list, was tough to beat. Still, Joe would not look out of place on my list.

Joe was one of my personal favorites, too, and when he got to the final of the 1980 PPPA 14.1 World Championships at age 59, only to lose to Mike sigel in the final, it was electrifying.

I'm think Balsis would have made your list if he hadn't taken his best 17 years off. His Hall of Fame interview on Freddy's site is very interesting.

Part 1: http://vintagevideojoebalsis.blogspot.com/2008/04/joe-balsis.html

Part 2: http://vintagevideojoebalsis.blogspot.com/2008/04/joe-balsis-interview-with-mort-luby-jr.html

 

[Barry Doc]

Thanks

All time
Ralph Greenleaf, Willie Mosconi, Irving Crane, Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Jimmy Caras, Ray Martin, Eddie Kelly, Luther Lassiter

Living
Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Ray Martin, Eddie Kelly, Allen Hopkins, Dallas West, Jim Rempe, Dan DiLiberto, John Schmidt, Danny Harriman

Active
John Schmidt, Danny Harriman, Johnny Archer, Charlie Williams, Tony Robles, Bobby Hunter, Dan Barouty, Bob Maidhof, Steve Lipsky, Max Eberle

SJM

Thanks for including Bob Maidhof on your active list. He will be honored to hear that.

That said I'am suprized that no one mention the great Jimmy Caras who was Bob's mentor and friend not to mention the knowledge he imparted
to the young Corey Deuel growing up in Bob's room

Last year before the Worlds, Corey came home so to speak to get a 14.1
tune up from Bob. Which I thought was very telling.

There's definatly an old school vs. new school (rotation game players) going on. Pattern players vs. shot makers.

just my .02 cents worth :wink:

 

[Rich R.]

sjm,
As usual, I couldn't find anything to dispute on your lists.

An interesting consideration is Shaun Wilkie. I would be quite interested to see how he would fare in head-to-head competition against Barouty, Lipsky, Hunter, Williams, and Maidhof. I am not sure his overall knowledge could compare to any of them (except Williams); but he sure impressed me as knowing more than any of the "9-ball shotmakers" like Shuff, McCreesh, Davis (and Williams too). His shotmaking may well be superior to some mentioned on your active player list.

I doubt you can rely on my observation, but if you get a chance to sweat a Wilkie match, I would be VERY interested in your opinion (Charlie could well lose his spot on the coveted "sjm list").

Don, Shaun Wilkie has really gotten into playing staight pool in a big way within the last couple of years. A couple of weeks ago he told me 9-ball bores him and he only really wants to play straight pool now.
In the beginning he played straight pool like a 9-ball player, if I can describe his game in that way. Now, I think he has made the transition and he is playing like a straight pool player. Shaun is definitely one of the young guns that will keep straight pool alive.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

SJM

Thanks for including Bob Maidhof on your active list. He will be honored to hear that.

That said I'am suprized that no one mention the great Jimmy Caras who was Bob's mentor and friend not to mention the knowledge he imparted
to the young Corey Deuel growing up in Bob's room

Last year before the Worlds, Corey came home so to speak to get a 14.1
tune up from Bob. Which I thought was very telling.

There's definatly an old school vs. new school (rotation game players) going on. Pattern players vs. shot makers.

just my .02 cents worth :wink:

Barry,

Mr. Caras is indeed on sjm's all-time list. This is the list you quoted in your post .

- Steve

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I've a question about the inclusion of Charlie Williams. What has he won or placed high in as far as significant straight pool tournaments go? I'm not slamming him, I just really don't know much about his straight pool record. I know he won the challenge earlier this year but am not familiar with his tournament record in major events. I have the DVD's of the 2006 14.1 World Championships where he co-narrated a few of the matches and he professed to being new and relatively uneducated about the game. Has he really done that much in straight pool to put him in the top ten? If so I sure have to give him credit for being such a quick study. :grin:

Thanks.

Charlie actually has a strong record in 14.1 tournaments during the recent five- or six-year resurgence of the game. He's had high finishes in the World event, won the Super Billiard Challenge, and also an event before that as well (can't remember if it was the DCC Challenge).

He runs a lot of balls, and it's not only due to his sharp shotmaking. He does sort of talk down his 14.1 a bit, but I think it's self-deprecating humor. The fact is, he is a strong player and I suspect that deep down, he actually rather likes the game.

- Steve

 

[berniep]

I've a question about the inclusion of Charlie Williams. What has he won or placed high in as far as significant straight pool tournaments go? I'm not slamming him, I just really don't know much about his straight pool record. I know he won the challenge earlier this year but am not familiar with his tournament record in major events. I have the DVD's of the 2006 14.1 World Championships where he co-narrated a few of the matches and he professed to being new and relatively uneducated about the game. Has he really done that much in straight pool to put him in the top ten? If so I sure have to give him credit for being such a quick study. :grin:

Thanks.

I would agree with this assessment of Charlie Williams. He does by his own admittance, acknowledge that he does not play the game like most top proficient 14.1 players.

I would perhaps put someone like Dave Daya, for example, in Charlie's place within the top 10 active players, possibly in the 8, 9, 10 range.

Even though Dave Daya is not in his prime, I believe he would get the better of Charlie in most games over 150 points.

Whaddya' think Stu?

Thanks.

Bernie Pettipiece.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I would agree with this assessment of Charlie Williams. He does by his own admittance, acknowledge that he does not play the game like most top proficient 14.1 players.

I would perhaps put someone like Dave Daya, for example, in Charlie's place within the top 10 active players, possibly in the 8, 9, 10 range.

Even though Dave Daya is not in his prime, I believe he would get the better of Charlie in most games over 150 points.

Whaddya' think Stu?

Thanks.

Bernie Pettipiece.

Bernie, I agree that Dave Daya belongs in the top 10 of any active list, and in my opinion, way higher than 8. But just out of curiosity, where did you become familiar with his game? I always thought he was mostly an east coast player, and you were sorta west coast?

- Steve

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Btw, here's my active list:

John Schmidt
Danny Harriman
Charlie Williams
Johnny Archer
Dennis Hatch
Dave Daya
Tony Robles
Bob Maidhof
Danny Barouty
Allen Hopkins

Players just missing the cut imo:

Ed Hodan
George San Souci (if he ever decided to really start playing again, he's a shoe-in for the main list)
Mike Zuglan (same as above)
Jose Garcia (same as above)
Bobby Chamberlain
Mike Davis
Shaun Wilkie
Dan Louie
Corey Deuel
Jim Gottier
me (on a good day, lol)

- Steve

 

[berniep]

Bernie, I agree that Dave Daya belongs in the top 10 of any active list, and in my opinion, way higher than 8. But just out of curiosity, where did you become familiar with his game? I always thought he was mostly an east coast player, and you were sorta west coast?

- Steve

Steve,

I had the pleasure of hittin' em around with Dave at the 2008 Worlds, for a little practice.

Just witnessing his pattern play rather quickly confirmed his abilities......not to mention, he seems like a pretty stand up guy too.

I just wish that there were a couple of players of his level and playing style living out in the Phoenix, Az area.

Dave strikes me as someone who would gladly pass on what he knows in the interest of preserving the 14.1 legacy.

Thanks.

Bernie.

 

[sjm]

Charlie actually has a strong record in 14.1 tournaments during the recent five- or six-year resurgence of the game. He's had high finishes in the World event, won the Super Billiard Challenge, and also an event before that as well (can't remember if it was the DCC Challenge).

He runs a lot of balls, and it's not only due to his sharp shotmaking. He does sort of talk down his 14.1 a bit, but I think it's self-deprecating humor. The fact is, he is a strong player and I suspect that deep down, he actually rather likes the game.

- Steve

Yes, Charlie won the Straight Pool Challenges at both Derby City and the Super Billiards Expo in 2010. including about 90 and out to beat John Schmidt at Derby City. Her also came 5th in the event at Comet Billiards last summer. His credentials are tough to ignore at this point.

 

[sjm]

I would agree with this assessment of Charlie Williams. He does by his own admittance, acknowledge that he does not play the game like most top proficient 14.1 players.

I would perhaps put someone like Dave Daya, for example, in Charlie's place within the top 10 active players, possibly in the 8, 9, 10 range.

Even though Dave Daya is not in his prime, I believe he would get the better of Charlie in most games over 150 points.

Whaddya' think Stu?

Thanks.

Bernie Pettipiece.

Hey Bernie, always nice to hear from you.

Maybe I'm just too influenced by recent reslts. Charlie came 5th at the World 14.1 event last summer, and Archer was the only American with a higher finish. He backed it up with a victory at the Derby City Straight Pool event, including a win in the semifinals agaisnt John Schmidt. He, similarly. prevailed over John to win the Straight Pool event at the Super Billiards Expo this March.

Dave Daya is a magnificent 14.1 player, but I'd have to pick Charlie over him in any long match.

 

[Winston846]

Dave Daya

Dave strikes me as someone who would gladly pass on what he knows in the interest of preserving the 14.1 legacy.

I've played with him a few times and can attest to that first hand.

Unfortunately, him telling me/showing me is one thing. My ability to execute it is another. :shakehead:

 

[dmgwalsh]

Yes, Charlie won the Straight Pool Challenges at both Derby City and the Super Billiards Expo in 2010. including about 90 and out to beat John Schmidt at Derby City. Her also came 5th in the event at Comet Billiards last summer. His credentials are tough to ignore at this point.

Stu: Charlie finished up his run against John at 125 and it is on an Accustats player review dvd.

I think it is great that Charlie is helping keep 14.1 alive.

And it is great that he never gives in and keeps making tough shot after tough shot.

But....have you ever looked at his patterns?

 

[sjm]

Stu: Charlie finished up his run against John at 125 and it is on an Accustats player review dvd.

I think it is great that Charlie is helping keep 14.1 alive.

And it is great that he never gives in and keeps making tough shot after tough shot.

But....have you ever looked at his patterns?

Hi Dennis, hope you're well.

Charlie is the first to concede that he is not a classic style 14.1 player. Nor, for that matter, was the legendary Luther Lassiter, who may well be the gtreatest ball pocketer of all time, but players must be judged on their results, and not exclusively on their techinical elegance. Charlie is certainly no Lassiter, but his ability to hold the table for long stretches without playing the patterns like a purist is somewhat reminiscent of Lassiter.

Yeah, I forgot that Charlie finished his run at Derby City. Let's add that his 125 ball run was on a tough Diamond table, which is no small feat.

Finally, like you, I greatly admire the efforts of Charlie Williams in keeping 14.1 in the spotlight.

 

[dmgwalsh]

players must be judged on their results, and not exclusively on their techinical elegance.

Say it ain't so.
I love watching the nice patterns. The nibbling of the rack where necessary. The subtle bumps.

Charlie is the first to concede that he is not a classic style 14.1 player.

That is probably the only reason I put this out here. Charlie kids about it. Bill and I were calling him Charlie Patterns and he was laughing and going along with it.

And again Kudos to Charlie for hanging tough and winning those recent events and also for reviving 14.1 in America. :thumbup: