Top Ten US 9/10 ball players

Actually, it subtracts from the discussion, for several reasons:

1) Includes bar table events, 2) includes one pocket events, 3) includes bank pool and even includes bank pool ring game. When figuring out who the best American 9/10 ball players, none of these events are relevant.

I respectfully disagree.

Pool is pool. The cream rises to the top, regardless of the game played or table size. The best players in one discipline, are "usually" the best players in all disciplines. I'm talking in general terms here.

Furthermore, the money lists for 2015 shows who is actually out there playing, instead of staying home and twiddling their thumbs. Lets face it, being competition ready means something. In the modern pool era, the top 10 (by whichever list you want to use in this thread topic) are generally not gambling with anyone of their own caliber, on a "regular" basis. Thus, tournament play is most often the only time they are competing with their peers. If a player does not have high money list rankings, he is simply not out there competing, or he is, and is doing very poorly.

I'm not saying the top 10 money list is the top 10 player list (in fact my own list is quite different), but to say the money list is not relevant to the conversion I feel is not correct.
 
There are not to many people going to Florida looking for Donnie Mills. Also not many people in the USA get up to play Shane, not matter what the rack rules are. He may not get around the USA and play in many tournaments. But, that does not take away the fact that he would shoot holes threw several people on these lists if they where playing rotation pool for money. What other americans have beat Warren Kiamco even for the cash besides maybe the top 3 or 4 players. I know he knows how to rack the balls, but you still have to run out. What he finish 3rd in the US Open one year?

It was never said list was of top 10 cash players or top 10 Tournament players. With that being said.

Donnie Mills would have to be on my top 10 List.

That doesn't mean anything, imo. You could replace Donnie Mill's name with any of his fellow pros. No one is looking for anybody on a pro level to gamble with in this modern pool era. Its rare and a treat when it happens that top pros will gamble with each other today.
 
Memphis

Calcuttas usually mean more to me as to who is playing better, who got the highest in Memphis ? By almost 3-1 w Sky and Justin Johnny there. John Morra has been playing top notch!
 
Would any of the fellow action room participants be interested in starting a wager thread with our respective lists, applied to the U.S. Open tournament? We could work out the logistics there, in the action room.
 
That doesn't mean anything, imo. You could replace Donnie Mill's name with any of his fellow pros. No one is looking for anybody on a pro level to gamble with in this modern pool era. Its rare and a treat when it happens that top pros will gamble with each other today.

Gambling means more then any tournaments when trying to decide who the better players are. Any of these guys can beat each other racing to 7,9,11, hell I've beat some of them before in those races. But, when going to 35, 50, or 8 or 10 ahead, the best player is going to win at a MUCH higher percentage.
 
Gambling means more then any tournaments when trying to decide who the better players are...when going to 35, 50, or 8 or 10 ahead, the best player is going to win at a MUCH higher percentage.

I understand your sentiment but this isn't exactly true. I guess it depends on how you define "best player". Gambling results are most important in determining who the best gamblers are, and as you say the best gamblers will win at gambling a much higher percentage of the time. But tournament results are the most important in determining who the best tournament players are and likewise the best tournament players will win tournaments a much higher percentage of the time as well. For the most part it is actually the same players in both cases but not always. So which is really "better"? Totally depends on your personal definition of "better".

Tournaments come with a lot more pressure because mistakes are much more costly, and you know you won't get to flip it for another set if you lose. When you lose you lose, that's it. You cannot be a slow starter type in tournaments. You generally need to come with your best game from start to finish under a lot of pressure. Not everybody stands up well to those conditions. And on the flip side, not everybody can handle the physical or mental grind of the long playing hours that can be involved in gambling. All you are really saying with your statement above is that you personally define "best player" as the guy that can play an average of moderately well for a long time under less pressure. A lot of people would disagree with you and say the "best player" is the guy that can come with a higher game and from first ball to last and under much more pressure.

Bottom line is it just depends on what traits and conditions you value more. This is as much opinion and personal preference as anything. Where we would all agree is that the guy that is the best at both is truly the best. Otherwise it is pretty subjective and based on whether you see the "fastest runner" as the guy that is the fastest 100 yard dash runner, or the guy that is the fastest marathon runner. It just depends on whether you personally value the highest speeds and levels of performance under the most pressure, or the endurance and stamina and mental toughness over an extended period of time even when the top or average speed comparatively isn't as high.
 
I understand your sentiment but this isn't exactly true. I guess it depends on how you define "best player". Gambling results are most important in determining who the best gamblers are, and as you say the best gamblers will win at gambling a much higher percentage of the time. But tournament results are the most important in determining who the best tournament players are and likewise the best tournament players will win tournaments a much higher percentage of the time as well. For the most part it is actually the same players in both cases but not always. So which is really "better"? Totally depends on your personal definition of "better".

Tournaments come with a lot more pressure because mistakes are much more costly, and you know you won't get to flip it for another set if you lose. When you lose you lose, that's it. You cannot be a slow starter type in tournaments. You generally need to come with your best game from start to finish under a lot of pressure. Not everybody stands up well to those conditions. And on the flip side, not everybody can handle the physical or mental grind of the long playing hours that can be involved in gambling. All you are really saying with your statement above is that you personally define "best player" as the guy that can play an average of moderately well for a long time under less pressure. A lot of people would disagree with you and say the "best player" is the guy that can come with a higher game and from first ball to last and under much more pressure.

Bottom line is it just depends on what traits and conditions you value more. This is as much opinion and personal preference as anything. Where we would all agree is that the guy that is the best at both is truly the best. Otherwise it is pretty subjective and based on whether you see the "fastest runner" as the guy that is the fastest 100 yard dash runner, or the guy that is the fastest marathon runner. It just depends on whether you personally value the highest speeds and levels of performance under the most pressure, or the endurance and stamina and mental toughness over an extended period of time even when the top or average speed comparatively isn't as high.

My guess is a lot of people will skim through your post, and respond like a bunch of cavemen.

"NO YOU WRONG. 100 RACE ONLY WAY TO PROVE BETTA PLAYA"
 
Gambling means more then any tournaments when trying to decide who the better players are. Any of these guys can beat each other racing to 7,9,11, hell I've beat some of them before in those races. But, when going to 35, 50, or 8 or 10 ahead, the best player is going to win at a MUCH higher percentage.

I agree in theory.

But, a few points to consider, that are very relevant in today's pool world:

1. The top pros rarely gamble with each other. So there is a lot more matches to look at in tournament play.

2. If a player is better, he is statistically favored to win a race to 100. He is also statistically favored to win a race to 9. Now, of course, he will win the race to 100 more often than the race to 9. But the set lengths eventually reach a certain number of games where it becomes a point of diminishing returns. That might be around a race length in the teens.
 
I understand your sentiment but this isn't exactly true. I guess it depends on how you define "best player". Gambling results are most important in determining who the best gamblers are, and as you say the best gamblers will win at gambling a much higher percentage of the time. But tournament results are the most important in determining who the best tournament players are and likewise the best tournament players will win tournaments a much higher percentage of the time as well. For the most part it is actually the same players in both cases but not always. So which is really "better"? Totally depends on your personal definition of "better".

Tournaments come with a lot more pressure because mistakes are much more costly, and you know you won't get to flip it for another set if you lose. When you lose you lose, that's it. You cannot be a slow starter type in tournaments. You generally need to come with your best game from start to finish under a lot of pressure. Not everybody stands up well to those conditions. And on the flip side, not everybody can handle the physical or mental grind of the long playing hours that can be involved in gambling. All you are really saying with your statement above is that you personally define "best player" as the guy that can play an average of moderately well for a long time under less pressure. A lot of people would disagree with you and say the "best player" is the guy that can come with a higher game and from first ball to last and under much more pressure.

Bottom line is it just depends on what traits and conditions you value more. This is as much opinion and personal preference as anything. Where we would all agree is that the guy that is the best at both is truly the best. Otherwise it is pretty subjective and based on whether you see the "fastest runner" as the guy that is the fastest 100 yard dash runner, or the guy that is the fastest marathon runner. It just depends on whether you personally value the highest speeds and levels of performance under the most pressure, or the endurance and stamina and mental toughness over an extended period of time even when the top or average speed comparatively isn't as high.


Which ones are "better" you ask. That's simple. GAMBLING.

Because most of the time what they made in any particular tournament is all in play gambling. And they tend to make more from gambling on a whole then tourneys, as tourneys are rare, once a month possibly, as where gambling is a daily thing, and if it isn't they sure are not surviving very well.

I don't see how you can say there's less pressure gambling, when most guys are firing their whole bankroll, opposed to a tournament where there is a set buy in.

I've played and traveled myself to events a lot when I played more about 15 years ago. I stake a few guys now in tourneys and gambling, and it's not even a question which is more profitable. If you have done this then you would simply know which is more valuable to your assets. And I've had top ponies in tourneys, like the pilots, it's still not feasible.
 
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Which ones are "better" you ask. That's simple. GAMBLING.
If you value the higher average level of play then you would be wrong, because the higher average level of play comes from the best tournament players. If you value stamina above the highest level of average play then you would be right, it would be the long set gamblers. Again, this is really no different than the question of "who is faster" or "who is the best runner" between Usain Bolt (best sprinter in the world) or Geoffrey Mutai (arguably best marathon runner in the world).

If you most value the absolute highest possible top speed, then you would think it is Bolt that is the fastest in the world, because he wins in the highest gear/able to cover the most meters per second. If you most value the ability to keep up a fairly high average speed over a long period then you would see Mutai as the fastest or best, because he is faster than Bolt under those conditions where stamina becomes a factor instead of just your sheer top speed.

I don't see how you can say there's less pressure gambling, when most guys are firing their whole bankroll, opposed to a tournament where there is a set buy in.

We are talking about pros here. Firing their entire bank roll is the exception, not the norm. In fact it isn't even the norm that pros gamble against each other with their own money. They are usually backed when gambling against each other, which takes away tons of pressure.

Even in the cases where they do bet their own, they always know that they can continue to flip it for another set. Or in the case of a long set, they know that there are a ton more games to be played and they don't have to worry nearly as much about any particular mistake.

And I think you are thinking about this in terms of a single race to nine compared to a single race to one hundred. You are forgetting that the best tournament players have played thousands of races to nine or eleven in tournaments. One race to nine doesn't necessarily tell you much, but many hundreds or thousands do. And they generally happened under more pressure too, which makes it even more telling.

Another example, lets take John and Jack. They play eleven races to nine against each other in various tournaments over time. One race to nine may not tell you much about how they match up or who is better, but after eleven of them you get a pretty good feel for who is better. Certainly as good of a feel as say one race to a hundred anyway, because the total number of games played is going to be almost identical. There is one big difference though. In the eleven races to nine every game was more important, every mistake more costly. There was a ton more pressure. There will never be any periods of time where your opponent goes into give up mode, and you will never have periods of time where you get to coast with no pressure. It is all pressure start to finish and better be your best performance from the first ball to the last because any one mistake could cost the loss of that race.

Now a race to one hundred does do a better job at determining stamina, but I don't care who has the most stamina. If that was important they should just run a marathon against each other and forget playing pool. I want to see who has the highest gear, the highest levels of pool playing, under the most pressure, and you get that much better with many shorter sets than a single long one. I think it is easy to argue that they guy that is winning a ton of shorter sets (like a tournament player who is dominating tournaments) is a better pool player (maybe not better stamina, but a better pool player) than the guy who is dominating long races gambling, because he has to do it on demand, under more pressure, where every mistake is more costly, and where he knows that he won't be able to flip the coin again for a second chance.

Many small sets is always a better determiner of skill than a single long one. A match in a tournament comes with more pressure than a similar length set done while gambling (unless you are betting a very large amount of your own money).
 
^^^^^^^
Until you get in the box and bet your own 5 or 10k you're never going to understand the difference in pressure, sorry to say. It's easy to assume.
 
Not even top 20

If Larry is on his game he could beat anyone in the country. He is a little too inconsistent which is why he never reached the top but I've seen him in gear and other than guys like Earl Strickland, Nobody can reach a gear like Larry.
 
^^^^^^^
Until you get in the box and bet your own 5 or 10k you're never going to understand the difference in pressure, sorry to say. It's easy to assume.

People assume the dollar amount the more money the more pressure that's not always the case ,Dippy Dave would have more pressure on him walking across a busy street than playing for 10k


1
 
^^^^^^^
Until you get in the box and bet your own 5 or 10k you're never going to understand the difference in pressure, sorry to say. It's easy to assume.

I'm interested to see your list of top 10 Americans. I've tried to put one together and just keep deleting it. It's kind of hard because I feel there are a few different tiers of players and the 7th-10th could be a lot of people.
 
I'm interested to see your list of top 10 Americans. I've tried to put one together and just keep deleting it. It's kind of hard because I feel there are a few different tiers of players and the 7th-10th could be a lot of people.

Yes, definitely true... After China Open, China Trailer Tourney, and Memphis Open, Fargo Ratings top 10 is,

Van Boening
Archer
Morris
Dechaine
Bergman
McMinn
Putnam
Strickland
Hatch
Deuel

Next 15, in alphabetical order, is Bartram, Bennett, Bryant, Dominguez, Frost, Hall, Kirkwood, Nevel Jr, O'Neal, Pinegar, Roberts, Sossei, Varner, Williams, Woodward
 
^^^^^^^
Until you get in the box and bet your own 5 or 10k you're never going to understand the difference in pressure, sorry to say. It's easy to assume.

Did you not see where is said this?

A match in a tournament comes with more pressure than a similar length set done while gambling (unless you are betting a very large amount of your own money).

And how often do pros bet large amounts of their own money against other pros? How about almost never. They don't even gamble against other pros all that often, and when they do they are usually being backed, especially if it is a large amount of money. And they never do it where there isn't an option to reflip and have a chance to get their money back if they lose the first one. I never said that a gambling match can't have more pressure than a tournament match but that isn't the norm and is actually pretty rare. Tournament players routinely face more pressure.

And back to whether gambling or tournaments show who the better player is, consider this. So why is it that great tournament players are usually great gamblers but great gamblers are often not great tournament players (remember we are talking pros here)? Think of all the reasons why a top pro tournament player wouldn't be able to be a top gambler and list them. There is really only one realistic reason:
-They don't have the stamina to play for a long and continuous time.

Now list all the reasons why a top gambler may not be able to do well in tournaments:
-They don't have a high enough level of skill or gear
-Their play is inconsistent
-They are a slow starter and can't come with a great game right from the start or when they need to
-With no option to reflip they can't deal with the "do or die" pressure.
-They can't handle the pressure of having to beat a lot of different people instead of just one

At the pro level to think that tournament domination doesn't mean as much as being a good gambler is IMO a little naive and might even be backwards. The fact that a top tournament player is almost certain to be a great gambler but a great gambler is often not a good tournament player should by itself be enough to tell us a little something.

My experience is those that say being a great tournament player doesn't mean much are usually (maybe not always, but usually) players that don't tend to do good in tournaments themselves (for one or more of the reasons above).
 
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