Trans debate arrives into Pro woman’s Billiards

[Jaden]

First, I like your avatar. I have an 8 yr blue weim that looks just like yours!

Regarding the author of the article I posted, it was clear that he’s not onboard with the mainstream trans agenda, and I probably could of looked for a more neutral source of the news to avoid this type of reaction. It seems like a uniquely complex issue in pool, as the gender related performance differences in this game have always been a bit of a mysterious issue…

But I also think its a huge error to label someone that has strong opinions on the issue as transphobic. Just like its a massive error to label all folks that may not support BLM type stuff as racist. Likewise its equally not helpful to label everyone who opposes the recent SCOTUS federal law change on abortion as woke-tard baby-killers. Not everyone that simply disagrees falls into the category of transphobic or racists, etc - there are many cultural & value issues involved in these topics and immediate denigration of other’s views does nothing to get us back to sane society. Free speech means we have to all be willing to be offended & tolerate various things we each consider to be BS from others without getting offended or silencing them.

Finally, I’m a bit curious on the pond comment. I’m pretty well traveled in EU & Asia, and as far as I can tell these issues are dividing those cultures also, with plenty of vocal proponents on both sides, same as we have here.

I make it a point to not get sucked into NPR & political type discussions & have tried to not interject any of my own personal views into the trans aspects of this discussion, as I don’t think any of us are going to change anyone’s mind via an Internet forum. But this one seemed interesting as it does directly relate to the game we all love, which is hopefully the common bond we all have here on AZB & the primary reason for being here. So far the thread has been remarkably civil on a quite thorny topic - that seems like some positive progress.

Cheers

The gender related differences are REALLY not all that mysterious if you don't get caught up in PC bullcrap. In general, men are better at visual spatial visualization than women and there is a larger pool (no pun intended) of men playing pool seriously than there are women. Those two things alone explain the disparity in pool between the sexes.

Jaden

It's definitely not the break or any of that stuff that is sometimes brought up. All you have to do to know that is look at Santos and his break, he's like 90 lbs sopping wett and breaks a ton.

 

[Zerksies]

Women have their own league because in general they are going to get crushed in a true open format. Look at the Fargo rating of some of the Top women players. They are probably in the 720-750 range whereas You get the Top men I think they are about 850ish.

I'm 100% for equality and would love to see some women winning men's tournaments, but the math is showing they are not going to win, just the rating enough shows it. You think Kelly Fischer is going to beat Shane in the long run or any of the tops players. HELL NO. She could win a match here and their but to go through and entire field of these guys. Nope

This isn't football or some other contact sport this is Pool. A big physical presence really don't mean much. So it beats me why these women are not winning big tournaments

 

[phreaticus]

Women have their own league because in general they are going to get crushed in a true open format. Look at the Fargo rating of some of the Top women players. They are probably in the 720-750 range whereas You get the Top men I think they are about 850ish.

I'm 100% for equality and would love to see some women winning men's tournaments, but the math is showing they are not going to win, just the rating enough shows it. You think Kelly Fischer is going to beat Shane in the long run or any of the tops players. HELL NO. She could win a match here and their but to go through and entire field of these guys. Nope

This isn't football or some other contact sport this is Pool. A big physical presence really don't mean much. So it beats me why these women are not winning big tournaments

If you read the chess article that was linked above, I think you’ll readily see the parallels to pool.

I think we all understand that top women play at lesser level than top men and this is why separate pro divisions exist. But, from all the articles and discussion so far, it seems that in billiards, like chess - the reasons for this are primarily due to the fundamental aggression attributes associated with male testosterone and related cultural/societal behaviors - and not due to other physiological/psychological differences.

This all suggests that education, awareness & adaptation to these issues by both sexes and combing them in social, educational & competitive environments - would over time lead to larger numbers of higher level female players & more heterogenous rankings in unified competition. Given the length of time that ladies were excluded from the game and general lack of awareness (and cohesive agreement in the industry) on these issues - presumably this would take a very long time, but it’s interesting to speculate about.

It makes me wonder if/how organizers of junior clinics, leagues, and competitions think about these issues.

 

[Zerksies]

If you read the chess article that was linked above, I think you’ll readily see the parallels to pool.

I think we all understand that top women play at lesser level than top men and this is why separate pro divisions exist. But, from all the articles and discussion so far, it seems that in billiards, like chess - the reasons for this are primarily due to the fundamental aggression attributes associated with male testosterone and related cultural/societal behaviors - and not due to other physiological/psychological differences.

This all suggests that education, awareness & adaptation to these issues by both sexes and combing them in social, educational & competitive environments - would over time lead to larger numbers of higher level female players & more heterogenous rankings in unified competition. Given the length of time that ladies were excluded from the game and general lack of awareness (and cohesive agreement in the industry) on these issues - presumably this would take a very long time, but it’s interesting to speculate about.

It makes me wonder if/how organizers of junior clinics, leagues, and competitions think about these issues.

I play chess to and find it complete bullshit of the Women grandmaster title, It's something 300 elo points lower. It's freaking chess no physically ability what so ever 100% mental. I got crap in a chess forum for stating this.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

No I played at a room that Ann would frequent.

Cue and Cushion or Clicks. I think I’ve played pool with you back in the late ‘90’s. Does the name Fran Crimmi mean anything during that time?

 

[JustPlay]

except they wont because they'll be labeled bigots, cnn will smear them, sponsors will receive thousands of threatening phone calls, as will tournament venues, resulting in dropped financial support for the players, cancelled tournaments, and mobs will probably form infront of their houses to threaten them and their children. We've seen this play out....oh i dont know.....a thousand times.

I really do not think that pocket billiards especially Women's events are a blip on the entertainment radar.

 

[Wolven]

I think we all understand that top women play at lesser level than top men and this is why separate pro divisions exist. But, from all the articles and discussion so far, it seems that in billiards, like chess - the reasons for this are primarily due to the fundamental aggression attributes associated with male testosterone and related cultural/societal behaviors - and not due to other physiological/psychological differences.

Actually it is pretty much due to physiological/psychological differences.

 

[Wolven]

I'm a bit curious about a few of your comments...

-What exactly is the "mainstream trans agenda"? Sounds like some kind of an evil plot, but maybe you just misspoke.

-Is it really up for white people to decide "what's racist"? I mean, I could think that I'm not racist, but I'm also a middle class white dude who hasn't had some of the life experiences of black people.

-If someone wants to "label me" as a woke-tard baby killer for supporting abortion, I'm probably not going to value their opinion anyway because they're so entrenched in their opinion that it's not worth discussing (also known as tribalism).

-A lot of people get the "free speech" argument wrong. Free speech means that our govt lets you spout whatever crazy you want to without reprisal (within limits). It doesn't mean that a private citizen has to sit there and take it with a smile on your face.

The pond comment wasn't a statement on geopolitical societal values. The article came from a British magazine. Britain is "across the pond" from the US. We have people making uninformed judgments about transgenders in sports in the US also. They are usually in states with Republican-controlled legislatures.

Here's my problem with opinions...most of them are stupid. However, I do respect everyone's right to their own. I'm just saying that an opinion sounds a little better if there's something factual backing it up. And if you think that this thread has been civil, maybe NPR isn't such a crazy option for you?

Do you think your believe system and responses it will invoke belong in the main forum or NPR?

 

[Wolven]

I play chess to and find it complete bullshit of the Women grandmaster title, It's something 300 elo points lower. It's freaking chess no physically ability what so ever 100% mental. I got crap in a chess forum for stating this.

What were you told?

 

[trob]

A few thoughts on thi….

1)Men don’t belong in womens sports whether they feel like a women or not. They were born with testosterone either way. That being said pool isn’t really a sport. It’s a game.

2) Women can play in any tournament they want. There is no mens only tournament I’m aware of..

3)Which brings us to the 3rd point because the competition is much weaker in womens pro pool. There are only a handful of women that con compete with the men so he feels it’s easy Pickens.

 

[Mick]

But I also think its a huge error to label someone that has strong opinions on the issue as transphobic. Just like its a massive error to label all folks that may not support BLM type stuff as racist.

Massive error? Naw. It might be an error, but it gets you in the ballpark.

 

[Dan White]

Cue and Cushion or Clicks. I think I’ve played pool with you back in the late ‘90’s. Does the name Fran Crimmi mean anything during that time?

I've played at both, but spent more time at Cue and Cushion. Took a lesson from a guy named "Pete Charles" IIRC. It was old school with guys like Jersey Red playing there. I didn't know Fran lived in Houston. I met her in NYC after I moved back to NJ in 1997.

We might have played but I doubt it. I wasn't there every night. I was splitting my free time between tennis and pool. Plus, I was barely an OK player back then. Nobody that you'd remember decades later.

 

[Thunder Thighs]

 

[Dan White]

The gay activists and media got just about everything they wanted so now they have too much time on their hands. They need to be upset about something, so along comes the trans movement. Maybe Plato would give that one a thumbs up?

 

[SmoothStroke]

Women are multitaskers, men have tunnel vision.
When you can physically play the game it's all mental focus, concentration.
Mental and physical distraction also plays a large part in performance.
In a foreign pool hall it helps to familiarize yourself with all surroundings and sounds.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

The World is changing, not for the good, some people like the change, some don’t.

 

[Positively Ralf]

Just start a transgender classification and compete in it. Most probably it will have fewer members to start but that is how all leagues start. Sort of like how Special Olympics started. Let the transgender folks establish their special rules if needed. This is not that complicated and needn't carry a negative stigma. Just have men's, women's, and transgender sections to compete in.

The problem is, that if you do that, everyone will complain about segregation.

 

[Wolven]

Massive error? Naw. It might be an error, but it gets you in the ballpark.

Only if you confuse violent, communist, money embezzling/extorting organization with a statement.

 

[Island Drive]

How about this? Is it legal for man to have implanted breasts, then go out in public with their top off?

 

[buckshotshoey]

How about this? Is it legal for man to have implanted breasts, then go out in public with their top off?

They will just make it illegal for ALL men to have their shirt off.

I'm almost 300 lb. I'm growing my own. I'm going to need to get a Bro! So I voluntarily keep my shirt on. You can thank me later.