troubles with double hitting

[Bambu]

Where I come from, you cant just strike 2 frozen balls normally. Ok, so its not a double hit....but its still a foul. You gotta either jack up, or shoot away from/graze the ball. Predator tour rules dont even let us jack up, we have to shoot away from the ball.

 

[jay helfert]

You may want to re-read the rules because at least according to the World Standardized Rules of pool, it is legal to shoot straight towards a ball the cue ball is frozen to. Here is the web site: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play

Which rules do you usually play by?

A minor point is that when you shoot a shot like that, there is only one tip-to-cue-ball contact. This has been studied with high-speed video.

Sorry Bob, this is one rule that needs to be done away with! Say what you want but this is a push shot all the way! I can do some pretty amazing things if allowed to shoot directly through a frozen ball. In snooker you must shoot AWAY from a frozen object ball and for good reason.

I can see shooting across the face of the frozen ball but not directly through it. This used to be an illegal shot but the "powers that be" decided to now make it legal. BAD RULE! Just one of many new rules (during the last ten years) that have been instituted in professional pool that I find to be ill conceived.

Why the eight ball on the break is no longer a win escapes me completely? That was the one universal rule in eight ball in all its variations across the country in all leagues and formats for a million years and now it's gone. If you made the eight ball on the break (very hard to do) you won the game. Simple enough. NO, we need to get rid of it someone decided. Can you spell S T U P I D ? For that matter, it should not be an open table after the break if you make a ball. You should have to play the balls that you made (i.e. stripe or solid). That's real Eight Ball! The way we played it for a million years before some committee took over.

Then they took away the two way shot in Ten Ball, only one of the most interesting shot options in any rotation game. Call shot this, call shot that, ad nauseum. Let them play pool please! And the ten should also count on the break imo. With the new magic racks (and even the Delta 13) it is difficult to even get the ten ball moving, let alone make it. One of the most exciting shots in pool removed from the game. They should also be playing winner breaks. What's more exciting than seeing someone string a few racks? Three in a row is a great run in Ten Ball. The new rules have taken a lot of the excitement out of the game. JMHO as always.

 

[jay helfert]

where i come from, you cant just strike 2 frozen balls normally. Ok, so its not a double hit....but its still a foul. You gotta either jack up, or shoot away from/graze the ball. Predator tour rules dont even let us jack up, we have to shoot away from the ball.

Bingo!!!!!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

[shooting through frozen CB/OB] is a push shot all the way! I can do some pretty amazing things if allowed to shoot directly through a frozen ball. In snooker you must shoot AWAY from a frozen object ball and for good reason.

It may be a bad rule, but not because it's a push shot - I don't think the tip stays on the ball an abnormal amount of time.

...they took away the two way shot in Ten Ball...

Depends on your definition of "two way"...

10 Ball prevents "semi-slop" by playing either one of two balls (one usually being the money ball), but it doesn't prevent trying to make the lowest ball while getting "safe shape" on the next ball.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

................

 

[rayjay]

not true. jacking up and hitting draw when close to a ball can essentially create the same effect as a jump shot. in this instance, the cue-ball makes contact with the object-ball continues to hop forward after contact and the draw takes after the cue-ball is done bouncing and grabs the cloth. true story[/QUOTE

I disagree. At that close distance, it goes forward due to being pushed after the initial hit, even if it's jumping with draw. High speed slow motion photography shows this.

 

[Island Drive]

I agree with what you said except about call shot ten ball, and the push shot. I really am surprised that YOU think it is a push shot. Especially when it has been proven that it is NOT. Yes, you can throw the ob either left or right, but that does not make it a push shot!

I don't think comparing snooker in this situation is needed as a previous poster mentioned. Besides that, shooting away tho takes the ref and all the possible BS etc that can accompany that shot and cuts down on the whining/attitude and all which truly effects how our game is percieved to the general public, thats a good thing. The rule of rack your own was implemented in large part because of complaining/whining/bad racking and took the load off the TD (McChesney/McDermott Tour implemented this), but it slows up play Allot. Another aspect of this shot is, if the cue ball and obj. ball have the same forwad speed it's def. a push.

 

[Maniac]

Tommy, the rule is it is a foul if you double hit the cue ball, no matter what the situation. If the balls are not absolutely frozen but are very close together, it is almost impossible to NOT double hit the CB with a normal level stroke.

This is another "can of worms" altogether. Many players (and not just ameteurs) cannot discern a legal hit from a double hit, neither from the action/movement of the cueball to the sound it makes from the double hit.

And, they'll argue with you 'til the cows come home!!!

Maniac

 

[PGHteacher]

Generally the people who don't know the rule are relatively new to pool and probably not that great.

Because of this, I tell them after the first time I see it that it was a foul, but since they didn't know, I won't take BIH.

dld

This is my feeling to; inform them it is a foul (if they fouled). I usually say “you know if the ball is that close to the CB, it’s almost impossible not to foul; just telling you for next time you got to shoot away from it, jack up or something, you can’t just shoot it like a normal shot”. This works very well; 99.9% of these people just don’t know and understand why it’s a foul and 0% of them play at my speed. I like to be helpful and informative whenever possible; this person is not a threat so it’s easy in this situation.

There was a post saying that “the sound can be misleading” that I found odd this is how I have been determining the foul for years and if true that’s too bad because I use that to explain to newbies why it’s a foul.

 

[Island Drive]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bambu
where i come from, you cant just strike 2 frozen balls normally. Ok, so its not a double hit....but its still a foul. You gotta either jack up, or shoot away from/graze the ball. Predator tour rules dont even let us jack up, we have to shoot away from the ball.


Bingo!!!!!
__________________
http://www.jayhelfert.com/ to order Pool Wars


Jay, its nice hearing your opinions and ideas on this aspect of play, and the grey areas it still has.

Only question I have for those that are real pickey, at what angle does one have to shoot away to become legal? Also, when shooting away, your actually doing the same type of shot as going straight into the obj. ball without a dbl hit or push. Back in the 70's Grady in CO then, made us all believers that if forward speed of whitey was less than the obj. ball it was a good hit, comes up allot in one hole which may be where it started.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

This just goes to show that most players have not taken the time and effort to buy a BCA Rule Book and read it. It is available right here on AZ Billiards for only a couple of bucks.

Some are just "Stuck on stupid."

 

[Island Drive]

Why the eight ball on the break is no longer a win escapes me completely? That was the one universal rule in eight ball in all its variations across the country in all leagues and formats for a million years and now it's gone. If you made the eight ball on the break (very hard to do) you won the game. Simple enough. NO, we need to get rid of it someone decided. Can you spell S T U P I D ? For that matter, it should not be an open table after the break if you make a ball. You should have to play the balls that you made (i.e. stripe or solid). That's real Eight Ball! The way we played it for a million years before some committee took over.

Then they took away the two way shot in Ten Ball, only one of the most interesting shot options in any rotation game. Call shot this, call shot that, ad nauseum. Let them play pool please! And the ten should also count on the break imo. With the new magic racks (and even the Delta 13) it is difficult to even get the ten ball moving, let alone make it. One of the most exciting shots in pool removed from the game. They should also be playing winner breaks. What's more exciting than seeing someone string a few racks? Three in a row is a great run in Ten Ball. The new rules have taken a lot of the excitement out of the game. JMHO as always.

For that matter, it should not be an open table after the break if you make a ball. You should have to play the balls that you made (i.e. stripe or solid). That's real Eight Ball! The way we played it for a million years before some committee took over.

Jay,
Another bingo on the open table Jay, but the powers that be, want to speed up play IMHO.

I'm def. with ya on the 8 on the break wins, it would be like taking away all par threes on a golf course so no one can make a hole in one, 8 on the break winning, sounds very fair.
Winner breaks, I'm more leaning towards the Tennis type format. You break X amt of games, I rack (Magic rack to eliminate you know what) and then we switch, I rack you break.

 

[Neil]

.................

 

[PGHteacher]

Sorry Bob, this is one rule that needs to be done away with! Say what you want but this is a push shot all the way! I can do some pretty amazing things if allowed to shoot directly through a frozen ball. In snooker you must shoot AWAY from a frozen object ball and for good reason.

I can see shooting across the face of the frozen ball but not directly through it. This used to be an illegal shot but the "powers that be" decided to now make it legal. BAD RULE!

I agree.

Why the eight ball on the break is no longer a win escapes me completely? That was the one universal rule in eight ball in all its variations across the country in all leagues and formats for a million years and now it's gone. If you made the eight ball on the break (very hard to do) you won the game.

I have done it 3 times in a row; and twice in a row a bunch of times, you hit that 2nd ball with draw and that 8 sometimes “fires out” of the rack. Or power breakers have a distinct advantage. It is just plain silly that the 8 on the break was ever a win; it’s just too easy to do especially on a smaller table. Give me a new 7ft fast table with new polished balls and I will show you why the rules are changing.

For that matter, it should not be an open table after the break if you make a ball. You should have to play the balls that you made (i.e. stripe or solid). That's real Eight Ball! The way we played it for a million years before some committee took over.

Seems like you want pool to have MORE of the “chance” element; I like many, would like to see it have LESS of the “chance” factor. That doesn’t make you wrong but it is a fundamental difference in perception.

Then they took away the two way shot in Ten Ball, only one of the most interesting shot options in any rotation game. Call shot this, call shot that, ad nauseum. Let them play pool please!

10ball has always been a call shot game (as far as I know; correct me if I am wrong) that’s what it’s for; to DISTINGUISH itself from other rotation games NOT to be another one.

They should also be playing winner breaks. What's more exciting than seeing someone string a few racks?

I agree it is exciting, but for those pros in shorter races not really desirable. When it was race to 11 great, but now we have race to 7, 5 or 4. Who wants to see the world champ lose a lag by 1mm and lose the match?

 

[Banks]

Jay, don't forget about scratching on the 8. That rule still kinda bugs me, but, as far as all of these rules go..

When in Rome..

People should play by the rules they're given, not by the rules that they like. In APA, I play plenty of possible Z banks, 2-fers, etc. In BCA, I look for pocketing safeties and so on. Unless you're able to use all of the available shots to win, you've got a greater chance of losing, especially to somebody else that is able to take advantage of those options.

 

[efirkey]

Have someone impartial watch the hit if you are playing in a tournament or for money. If you are playing for fun then just let them do it, so that you don't come across as some type of know it all.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Where I come from, you cant just strike 2 frozen balls normally. Ok, so its not a double hit....but its still a foul. You gotta either jack up, or shoot away from/graze the ball. Predator tour rules dont even let us jack up, we have to shoot away from the ball.

If no double hit occurs what is the foul for?

 

[Saturated Fats]

Tradition?

...it should not be an open table after the break if you make a ball. You should have to play the balls that you made (i.e. stripe or solid). That's real Eight Ball! The way we played it for a million years before some committee took over.

What is the argument for this other than tradition? In my view, you stand a 50% chance of being penalized for making a ball on the break. If you make a ball, you are stuck with that group, but if you don't, your opponent has a choice.

 

[Island Drive]

The part of your quote I put in red... just curious, have you ever watched Bob or Daves' high speed videos of the shot? And, are you familiar with what a push shot really is??

The reason I ask, is because when two balls are frozen, and you shoot with a normal stroke, the cb will travel the same speed as the ob. Even though it is a good and legal hit. Now....if the balls have any separation to them, then if the cb follows at the same speed it is a surefire way to tell you double hit the cb.

A push shot is when you place your tip against the cb, and just push through it. Doing that, your tip stays on the cb for a longer period of time. Using a normal stroke, even with two frozen balls, the tip doesn't stay on the cb more than about .001 sec. No longer than on a normal shot.

I've never seen the high speed videos, were or are they helpful in clearing up this ''grey'' area?
You used the term ''normal stroke'' where are you cueing whitey? 3/6/9/12/or middle? When there's separation' and your going forward, I thought the only proper way to execute was to elevate.
I ''disagree'' when you say ''place the tip against the cb''....that wording sounds like an immediate foul before the trigger was pulled/touching the cb, is that what you meant?

 

[PGHteacher]

What is the argument for this other than tradition? In my view, you stand a 50% chance of being penalized for making a ball on the break. If you make a ball, you are stuck with that group, but if you don't, your opponent has a choice.

^^^what he said^^^ very good point.