Try This Shot Ten Times

[Patrick Johnson]

pj-

here's my breakdown... traditional english vs backhand english....the cue is not pointing in the same direction.

Are you saying it is? If so, post a picture of what you're doing...

I'm too lazy to draw pictures tonight, but I think I know where we disagree. You think that by "swiping" the tip across the surface of the CB you get some sideways force and that's like hitting the same CB spot but at more of an angle so you get more spin and less squirt. I think the force of the cue, measured in the instant of contact with the CB, is always pretty much in line with the cue's long axis with no sideways component to speak of.

Does that sound right?

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

I agree it's adjusting in advance, and I think it's also doing it without a system. I don't get the "parallel" part - the whole point of squirt correction is to angle the stick non-parallel with the shot.

pj
chgo

(Too lazy to do a drawing.)

The only adjustment that some people are doing with "parallel" English (my definition of parallel English) is shooting parallel to the aiming line if you were using center ball to make the shot. The adjustment for squirt is estimated by allowing for the squirt to happen naturally and simply aim further to the side of the object ball than if you were aiming with center ball. Too lazy to draw also. Maybe another day. maybe not.

JoeyA

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The only adjustment that some people are doing with "parallel" English (my definition of parallel English) is shooting parallel to the aiming line if you were using center ball to make the shot. The adjustment for squirt is estimated by allowing for the squirt to happen naturally and simply aim further to the side of the object ball than if you were aiming with center ball. Too lazy to draw also. Maybe another day. maybe not.

JoeyA

That's how I always understood it. I think PJ is saying he maintains the "BHE" angle when he addresses a CB with FHE? If so, I see what he is saying. However, most players don't. I think (stress "THINK") most players who use FHE-- the cue line and aim line are parallel and they use natural deflection and aim adjustments to pocket the ball. Honestly, I've been pivoting for so many years I'm not sure how anybody strokes anymore-- I just know my own technique.

Anyways, if someone posts an illustration - that would be great. Joey, have you tried pocketing your shot with front hand english (parallel) and backhand english? What are you findings?

Dave

 

[JoeyA]

That's how I always understood it. I think PJ is saying he maintains the "BHE" angle when he addresses a CB with FHE? If so, I see what he is saying. However, most players don't. I think (stress "THINK") most players who use FHE-- the cue line and aim line are parallel and they use natural deflection and aim adjustments to pocket the ball. Honestly, I've been pivoting for so many years I'm not sure how anybody strokes anymore-- I just know my own technique.

Anyways, if someone posts an illustration - that would be great. Joey, have you tried pocketing your shot with front hand english (parallel) and backhand english? What are you findings?

Dave

I seldom use BHE because I seem to get poor shape when using it or I miss pocketing the object ball if I pay too much attention to getting shape. I use BHE when the balls are very close together and it is a tough cut and I don't want to risk squirting the cue ball.

When I shoot this shot and use side spin, I use what I call parallel aiming, which some call Parallel English (we'll have to see if Bob Jewett has some diagrams on his web site about PE or Traditional English. Traditional to me, means what has always been the tradition but what do I know. I only coined the word SQUERVE.

Sometimes I am able to make the shot using mostly high spin with a very small touch of left English.

I tried this shot and so did others using a Z shaft that had been slimmed down from the original size that Predator makes and the shot seemed to be able to be made with 95% high and 5% left. A couple of the guys could probably do 8 out of 10 after a little practice.

Buff the stuff, has been ON for a couple of weeks now, recently winning his own tournament (whacking me 5-0) and now is showing us how to make this shot using virtually any cue he puts his hands on.

JoeyA

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I seldom use BHE because I seem to get poor shape when using it or I miss pocketing the object ball if I pay too much attention to getting shape. I use BHE when the balls are very close together and it is a tough cut and I don't want to risk squirting the cue ball.

When I shoot this shot and use side spin, I use what I call parallel aiming, which some call Parallel English (we'll have to see if Bob Jewett has some diagrams on his web site about PE or Traditional English. Traditional to me, means what has always been the tradition but what do I know. I only coined the word SQUERVE.

Sometimes I am able to make the shot using mostly high spin with a very small touch of left English.

I tried this shot and so did others using a Z shaft that had been slimmed down from the original size that Predator makes and the shot seemed to be able to be made with 95% high and 5% left. A couple of the guys could probably do 8 out of 10 after a little practice.

Buff the stuff, has been ON for a couple of weeks now, recently winning his own tournament (whacking me 5-0) and now is showing us how to make this shot using virtually any cue he puts his hands on.

JoeyA

That's what I was trying to say earlier. If you stroke well, you should be able to make this with a house cue, cuetec, black board, gina, lambros whatever. Once you get accustomed to your cue and adjust (whatever that might be) - you should start making it in proportion to your ability.

Interesting to read how you use bhe/parallel. Good read.

Dave

 

[JoeyA]

That's what I was trying to say earlier. If you stroke well, you should be able to make this with a house cue, cuetec, black board, gina, lambros whatever. Once you get accustomed to your cue and adjust (whatever that might be) - you should start making it in proportion to your ability.

Interesting to read how you use bhe/parallel. Good read.

Dave

My inexperience with pivot points and BHE is vast.
Where is Hal Houle when you need him?
JoeyA

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Joey:
...what do I know. I only coined the word SQUERVE.

Must be really frustrating to coin such a cool word and then find out you've misspelled it!

pj <-
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

Must be really frustrating to coin such a cool word and then find out you've misspelled it!

pj <-
chgo

You must feel awful.
JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

You must feel awful.
JoeyA

The truth is I didn't coin it, I just spelled it so that the majority of the people speaking English could too.

The coining kudos goes to you Patrick.
JoeyA

 

[PoolSponge]

As soon as I saw that shot I smiled! That is a favourite of mine! I really prefer to spin the cb forward with inside siding. I have a better feel for it that outside siding all day.

That said, around here we have a few different tables. One set of tables are Palason (Canadian make) with 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 pockets. Two locations have them. The place with Simonis I could probably go 6 for 10, the other, 0-10. The table is far too slow for that shot. I would doubt even the best could go has high as 2 for 10. Another table is a nicer Palason but the rails are crazy fast and you would need 1/3 of your stroke to get that shot. Literally, pocket the 8 and you are there. On the Dufferin Challengers the pockets are 4 1/4 and I think maybe I would be 4 or 5 of 10. I will definitely try that shot out to be certain either tonight or tomorrow...if the wife lets me out.

So I went out and tried it. At one room I did well (not telling ) the other I went 0-10. I made the ball 8 of 10 but never once got the CB past center table....they are a tad slow.

Funny thing, I had some of my friends try, later on one was in a match and asked if this is the shot (which it was) and he found it in a game situation. He played it as such and came up perfect. He said he never would have made it if we all weren't shooting it before league and he was able to learn the shot.

 

[Thunderball]

This thread gets my vote for the most useful ever.
Seriously.

Perhaps it was the right time in my raggety ass game to start trying this shot,but it made me push some boundries.....Both in english and stroke...and mostly aim point compensation considering each.

I even got a few one pocket banks last night I would never have considered plausible (for both make and leave) before working on this shot.

This is the good AZ stuff folks.
Thanks.

 

[JoeyA]

That's how I always understood it. I think PJ is saying he maintains the "BHE" angle when he addresses a CB with FHE? If so, I see what he is saying. However, most players don't. I think (stress "THINK") most players who use FHE-- the cue line and aim line are parallel and they use natural deflection and aim adjustments to pocket the ball. Honestly, I've been pivoting for so many years I'm not sure how anybody strokes anymore-- I just know my own technique.

Anyways, if someone posts an illustration - that would be great. Joey, have you tried pocketing your shot with front hand english (parallel) and backhand english? What are you findings?

Dave

This isn't the greatest drawing in the world but using the cuetable I am trying to demonstrate how I aim the cue ball while applying low left English to the cue ball and still potting the nine ball in the corner pocket.

What type of English to you call this?

CueTable Help

JoeyA

 

[SpiderWebComm]

This isn't the greatest drawing in the world but using the cuetable I am trying to demonstrate how I aim the cue ball while applying low left English to the cue ball and still potting the nine ball in the corner pocket.

What type of English to you call this?

CueTable Help

JoeyA

I'm not a terminology expert... but front hand english, parallel english, traditional english--- I think they're all the same right? I mean, they all involve moving your bridge...so any of the above. You drew what I was describing before.

Joey, when you apply back hand english and pivot, are you hitting through the CB on the same path? PJ says yes, I say no, no one else chimed in. If you had a third line for BHE, you'd see it would probably shoot off into nowhere, not parallel with either of your first two. Your thoughts?

Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This isn't the greatest drawing in the world but using the cuetable I am trying to demonstrate how I aim the cue ball while applying low left English to the cue ball and still potting the nine ball in the corner pocket.

What type of English to you call this?

CueTable Help

JoeyA

I call it the kind that misses. The black line in your drawing isn't where you've pointed the cue ball; it's just where you've pointed your stick. The cue ball is still pointed at the original aim point (along the red line) and will miss to the right because of squirt. You need to change the angle of your stick like this:

CueTable Help

Moving the stick sideways doesn't compensate your aim for squirt. It's the angle change that does that. I'm pretty surprised that you guys still have this fundamental misunderstanding of how squirt works. This is why I say there's no such thing as "parallel english". "Parallel english" doesn't work.

pj
chgo

 

[alphadog]

I witnessed it!

I attempted this shot a few times last night Joey... but not 10 times... had a lot of trouble just pocketing the ball while trying to put that much english on it... guess I need more practice!

You have never miised!You failed to pocket both balls on the same shot a number of times but that is not a miss,stop being so humble! Jack

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Joey and Spidee:

Here's a drawing showing what I mean about "parallel english".

From left to right, this shows what happens (1) with a centerball hit, (2) with "parallel english", but imagining that squirt doesn't exist, (3) with "parallel english" in the real world (with squirt) and (4) with squirt and with aim adjusted ("non-parallel english").

The main thing to realize from this is that there's no such thing as parallel english. If you use sidespin, you must angle the cue away from the cue ball's intended path, because the cue ball will certainly move away from (not parallel with) the cue's centerline.

The next thing to realize from this is that you have to make the same aim adjustment (image #4) no matter what method you choose. You end up with the cue at the same angle with backhand english, fronthand english, traditional english, Martian english, or any other method. If you don't end up with the cue at the same angle, you miss the shot.

pj
chgo

 

[Joe T]

Here's a drawing showing what I mean about "parallel english".

From left to right, this shows what happens (1) with a centerball hit, (2) with "parallel english", but imagining that squirt doesn't exist, (3) with "parallel english" in the real world (with squirt) and (4) with squirt and with aim adjusted ("non-parallel english").

The main thing to realize from this is that there's no such thing as parallel english. If you use sidespin, you must angle the cue away from the cue ball's intended path, because the cue ball will certainly move away from (not parallel with) the cue's centerline.

The next thing to realize from this is that you have to make the same aim adjustment (image #4) no matter what method you choose. You end up with the cue at the same angle with backhand english, fronthand english, traditional english, Martian english, or any other method. If you don't end up with the cue at the same angle, you miss the shot.

pj
chgo

Pat that's a fantastic drawing, how do you do that?

I teach 5 different ways of applying english;

#1 I call front hand english, this is just lining up on center ball and then pivoting the bridge hand only to the required tip position.

#2 Back hand english, bridge stays still and back hand pivots.

#3 A little of both, slight front and back pivot, this is usually how I play.

#4 How most pros play. Decided what they're going to do while they're up and fall on the shot with the stick slightly angled in the desired position. This to me requires experience & feel so I usually take students thru 1 & 2 first. To me they end up right about where I'm going, I just like to fall with center ball first to make sure of my aim.

#5 Can't put into words how much I dislike parallel english (the entire stick parallel to the shot line) and believe it should be barred from all instructional material and the sad thing is I believe its easily the most common method taught. The main reason for my dislike is the mad squirt that it causes and I'll stop there or this post will get much longer.

JoeyA I'm going to a table tonight with a video camera and gonna try to add some tidbits to your shot. I know there's a lot of value to this shot and many here will benifit from making the required adjustments to pull it off.

Good Post!

 

[JoeyA]

Here's a drawing showing what I mean about "parallel english".

From left to right, this shows what happens (1) with a centerball hit, (2) with "parallel english", but imagining that squirt doesn't exist, (3) with "parallel english" in the real world (with squirt) and (4) with squirt and with aim adjusted ("non-parallel english").

The main thing to realize from this is that there's no such thing as parallel english. If you use sidespin, you must angle the cue away from the cue ball's intended path, because the cue ball will certainly move away from (not parallel with) the cue's centerline.

The next thing to realize from this is that you have to make the same aim adjustment (image #4) no matter what method you choose. You end up with the cue at the same angle with backhand english, fronthand english, traditional english, Martian english, or any other method. If you don't end up with the cue at the same angle, you miss the shot.

pj
chgo

Super drawings Pat. REally exceptional and they all show what really happens when side spin is put to the cue ball.
Another exceptional post.

I have to agree that your drawings make sense and that there is no such thing as parallel English. My "parallel" English is not parallel and is simply English and aiming applied to compensate for Squirt. Maybe it should be called Non-Pivot English aiming.

Not to nit pick but your drawing shows the pivot point to be but a few inches from the ferrule. Is this a common distance for a pivot point or just done for the benefit of the drawing?

I told others here when you first came on board, that you had a lot to offer and as usual you have clarified things that have often been poorly stated by myself and others and proven yourself correct once again.

Thanks for your tutelage, clarification and illustrations. They are the best.

JoeyA

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Not to nit pick but your drawing shows the pivot point to be but a few inches from the ferrule. Is this a common distance for a pivot point or just done for the benefit of the drawing?

That's smaller than normal to fit into the drawing. I changed the drawing to make it as long as possible, but even so it only shows about a 6 inch pivot point, which is probably about as small as they get. With a 6 inch pivot point, for a 1-foot shot with maximum sidespin you have to aim for a half ball hit to hit the OB straight on.

pj
chgo

 

[chefjeff]

Just went to the table not having played today. Gave myself 5 practice shots that would not count if I missed or made it then shot the 10 shot series.

Made it 5 times.

I have a fairly sporty draw stroke and cannot get the pos with draw.

Hard to tell from the diagram but I placed the OB 3 balls widths from the rail.

Olhausen 4.7 with SUPER deep shelves. A shot like that hit with sufficient pace has to be perfect or you get the infamous "Olhausen Rattle.:

Regards,
Jim

Ditto. 5 out of 10, Olhausen, small 8-footer...I only rattled one. I like this shot and have used it often.

I don't do well with repeated shot tests....I get bored quickly and then my stroke fails me. I seem to do better when I'm in the middle of a game/match and have the mindset of winning and need a shot like this to do it.

Btw, Predator shaft...which, imho, makes this shot easier.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston