Definitely. If Mike Zuglan was going to take money out for expenses, then he had to announce $20,000 added instead of $25,000 added.
TS Pay Out?
- Thread starter Flettir
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Definitely. If Mike Zuglan was going to take money out for expenses, then he had to announce $20,000 added instead of $25,000 added.
I will guarantee you that Mike Zuglan will read this thread, if he has not already, and will find a way to get his side of the story on this thread somehow.
FWIW, the tables do cost a big chunk of change. I don't know what it is, but it's hefty. It is expensive to load all those tables up, drive to Verona, NY, set the tables up, break 'em down, and then drive back with the tables.
Though I understand the need for payout explanations for pool tournaments, Mike Zuglan, in all my dealings with him, is probably one of the most stand-up guys in the industry. Every single weekend tournament I went to on the Joss tournament trail, the monies add up. He does take out a percentage for being tournament director, but it is way less than other regional tours, about 15-plus percent less, according to my calculations.
I especially like the payout breakdown on the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour, with second place always getting a big chunk of cheese, over half of first place payout.
Also, on the actual tour, he pays out 25 percent of the field, as opposed to 40 percent. Personally, I like that, though others may rather see a larger payout into the field of players. However, when I travel to a tournament, have travel, hotel, entry fee, food, and miscellaneous expenses, somehow coming in 14th place and winning $50 doesn't cut the mustard. Again, my personal opinoin.
There is never any favoritism on his tour. All players are treated equal. If Efren Reyes is late for his match, he's getting forfeited. That said, I do think two, maybe three, unnamed pros get free entry to all Turning Stone events (my personal opinion). It could be that they are sponsored by Joss.
Okay. Mike Zuglan, if you are reading this -- and I know you are -- wishing you a successful season! Is this the 14th or 15th Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour season? Inquiring minds wanna know! :smile:
FWIW, the tables do cost a big chunk of change. I don't know what it is, but it's hefty. It is expensive to load all those tables up, drive to Verona, NY, set the tables up, break 'em down, and then drive back with the tables.
Though I understand the need for payout explanations for pool tournaments, Mike Zuglan, in all my dealings with him, is probably one of the most stand-up guys in the industry. Every single weekend tournament I went to on the Joss tournament trail, the monies add up. He does take out a percentage for being tournament director, but it is way less than other regional tours, about 15-plus percent less, according to my calculations.
I especially like the payout breakdown on the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour, with second place always getting a big chunk of cheese, over half of first place payout.
Also, on the actual tour, he pays out 25 percent of the field, as opposed to 40 percent. Personally, I like that, though others may rather see a larger payout into the field of players. However, when I travel to a tournament, have travel, hotel, entry fee, food, and miscellaneous expenses, somehow coming in 14th place and winning $50 doesn't cut the mustard. Again, my personal opinoin.
There is never any favoritism on his tour. All players are treated equal. If Efren Reyes is late for his match, he's getting forfeited. That said, I do think two, maybe three, unnamed pros get free entry to all Turning Stone events (my personal opinion). It could be that they are sponsored by Joss.
Okay. Mike Zuglan, if you are reading this -- and I know you are -- wishing you a successful season! Is this the 14th or 15th Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour season? Inquiring minds wanna know! :smile:
The Joss Tour is the best tour I have played on. Period. I'm sure that all of the money is accounted for somewhere and I agree that it should be disclosed as to how much the prize fund and expenses are and to not confuse the two. I have never questioned Mike about it as he is one of the few that I trust to be fair.
Maybe if Mike posts the break down, Mark could sponsor the tables! This is a great event on great tables. I will be playing many more to come.
I would love to see open books for events and think everyone would. I have seen some TD post what they got paid and I couldn't believe it. $2500 for a couple days work. The have a day job paying $200 a day and think they are worth $1200 during a tournament. I can't figure it out.
Mike runs a ton of events and should get paid enough to make a living from it. based on the number of years the tour has been going, I think higher than most. How much, I don't know... I dont think it should be more than the best player in the world per year or more than the top 8 in a major event.
Open books great idea!
no matter how much he charges... better him than me, sooner play than be TD.
I would love to see open books for events and think everyone would. I have seen some TD post what they got paid and I couldn't believe it. $2500 for a couple days work. The have a day job paying $200 a day and think they are worth $1200 during a tournament. I can't figure it out.
Mike runs a ton of events and should get paid enough to make a living from it. based on the number of years the tour has been going, I think higher than most. How much, I don't know... I dont think it should be more than the best player in the world per year or more than the top 8 in a major event.
Open books great idea!
no matter how much he charges... better him than me, sooner play than be TD.
Hi Jason,
It was great meeting you at the "Stone". Hope your trip home was easier than the trip down!
Have always found it is far easier to tear down than build up. Everyone complains about the payouts. Too many, too much, not enough. I've added the payouts on other Tours. The Joss is the best. Period. The TS event has run for nearly ten years. Don't remember hearing anyone complain about the payouts before.
As far as opening his books to the players. Why would he do that? We're talking chump change here. Even if Mike made two thousand dollars for his TS work, his yearlong gas and wear and tear bill far exceeds that. I guess I "hath protested to much" on Mike's behalf.
Lyn
It was great meeting you at the "Stone". Hope your trip home was easier than the trip down!
Have always found it is far easier to tear down than build up. Everyone complains about the payouts. Too many, too much, not enough. I've added the payouts on other Tours. The Joss is the best. Period. The TS event has run for nearly ten years. Don't remember hearing anyone complain about the payouts before.
As far as opening his books to the players. Why would he do that? We're talking chump change here. Even if Mike made two thousand dollars for his TS work, his yearlong gas and wear and tear bill far exceeds that. I guess I "hath protested to much" on Mike's behalf.
Lyn
Jen,
I received an e-mail from Mike this morning. You bet he's reading this thread.
My educated guess is $300 per table. With sixteen tables, that's nearly $5000. Perhaps one of our protesters would belly up to the bar and pay that bill.
I now understand most posters are not complaining about the costs related to operating the event. They just want Mike to tell them where the money is going. Either as an added greens fee or less added money. Either way, have it printed before the event. OK with me.
Lyn
Hi, Mike Zuglan! :smile:
Lyn, I knew he'd be reading it because I know how much Mike Zuglan cares about this Joss Tour. He has devoted so many years of his life into making it the best that it can possibly be. I have often said that I believed it to be the best regional tour in the country, bar none.
The payouts always added up on the weekend events. For the folks who may not understand the expenses that go into running a tour, you've got hotel expense, travel costs, equipment (microphone, charts, markers, et cetera), printing fees, postage, long distance phone bills, and time. Should somebody do this for free?
And let's not forget that he gets to put up with all the players whining and complaining about the tournament rules and how rich Zuglan is getting off of this tour. If they only know how much TIME -- yes, TIME -- is involved in making this tour a reality, maybe they'd get it. I would venture to guess Zuglan doesn't even make minimum wage if you added up all the time he devotes to the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour, to include being the tournament director.
I do wonder how many mornings he's had to arrive at the tournament and wait until 2 or 3 a.m. for two turtle players to finish playing their match?
Though I understand people wanting to have the payouts broken down with the monies added, I personally believe that it's nobody's business. I do not think that the tournament promoter should be required to provide a profit-and-loss statement to the public.
If the people don't like the way a tournament is run, then don't play in it. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.
By the way, Mike Zuglan, if you're still reading this -- and I know you are -- judging by the pictures I saw of this last tournament, you're catching up to me in the gray hair department.
Oh, one more thing that I forget, the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour sends out 1099s to the players who won more than 600 bucks.
Some of the other regional tours I have personally attended and have knowledge about do not send out 1099s to the players. I don't even know if and/or how they file taxes for these other regional tours, but I do know they do not send out 1099s for players who won more than 600 bucks.
In fact, some of the large tournaments that I have attended where a player has won four and five figures did not send out 1099s to the players. I often wondered how they got away with this. Did they claim the tax writeoff and not send the player the 1099? I don't get it.
And if you think filing all those tax papers is easy, sending out all those 1099s, well, that takes time too. Another duty of the tournament promoter that often goes unnoticed.
Some of the other regional tours I have personally attended and have knowledge about do not send out 1099s to the players. I don't even know if and/or how they file taxes for these other regional tours, but I do know they do not send out 1099s for players who won more than 600 bucks.
In fact, some of the large tournaments that I have attended where a player has won four and five figures did not send out 1099s to the players. I often wondered how they got away with this. Did they claim the tax writeoff and not send the player the 1099? I don't get it.
And if you think filing all those tax papers is easy, sending out all those 1099s, well, that takes time too. Another duty of the tournament promoter that often goes unnoticed.
I'm sure Mr. Zuglan would be glad to explain the payouts to any participating player, if he were asked. Mr. Zuglan is a standup and honest person.
It's my opinion, to just publically display his costs to the general public is not necessarily important. He doesn't charge the public, so why should the payouts be a concern to someone that isn't participating in his events?
But, on the other hand, why don't you call or email Mr. Zuglan? And discuss your concerns.
Barry Cameron <proud sponsor of Mike Zuglan's Joss NE 9 Ball Tour
Hi, Mike Zuglan! :smile:
Lyn, I knew he'd be reading it because I know how much Mike Zuglan cares about this Joss Tour. He has devoted so many years of his life into making it the best that it can possibly be. I have often said that I believed it to be the best regional tour in the country, bar none.
The payouts always added up on the weekend events. For the folks who may not understand the expenses that go into running a tour, you've got hotel expense, travel costs, equipment (microphone, charts, markers, et cetera), printing fees, postage, long distance phone bills, and time. Should somebody do this for free?
And let's not forget that he gets to put up with all the players whining and complaining about the tournament rules and how rich Zuglan is getting off of this tour. If they only know how much TIME -- yes, TIME -- is involved in making this tour a reality, maybe they'd get it. I would venture to guess Zuglan doesn't even make minimum wage if you added up all the time he devotes to the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour, to include being the tournament director.
I do wonder how many mornings he's had to arrive at the tournament and wait until 2 or 3 a.m. for two turtle players to finish playing their match?
Though I understand people wanting to have the payouts broken down with the monies added, I personally believe that it's nobody's business. I do not think that the tournament promoter should be required to provide a profit-and-loss statement to the public.
If the people don't like the way a tournament is run, then don't play in it. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.
By the way, Mike Zuglan, if you're still reading this -- and I know you are -- judging by the pictures I saw of this last tournament, you're catching up to me in the gray hair department.
Mark Griffin and I are not interested in knowing all the costs that Mike has with the tour, or how much money he makes.
What we are interested in knowing is if he says $ 25,000 added, then will that be going to the prize fund? If he choose to pay himself, tables etc. out of that, then I think the correct thing would be to advertise with $ 20,000 if the table-costs, salary etc is $ 5,000.
If he makes a lot of money on the Joss, that's perfect.
What I am interested in is how much of the added money goes to the prize fund. That's all that matters.
Roy, if this information is important to you personally, then I would strongly urge you to e-mail Mike Zuglan. His e-mail address can be located on AzBilliards Main Page.
Personally, I really don't think he should have to explain himself to anyone after 14-plus years of running a successful tour. However, that said, an e-mail and maybe, by golly, a phone call could be made. Then the answers to all of those burning questions can be answered.
There is a reason why some pool folk NEVER post on this forum. Though there are some industry members who do post on this forum -- BRAVO to them for handling the peanut gallery -- the majority of them don't. Today, I understand why.
Why should I call him about something like that?
If he advertise with $ 25 000 ADDED then that is expected to be ADDED TO THE PRIZE FUND. Simple as that.
If not, then I can for example organize a big tournament myself, doing it like this.
Let's say I get a sponsor willing to pay $ 50,000, but then I have to get 16 tables, rent a room, hire referees, run the tournament, hire a car, hotel, food etc. The costs of this will be $ 25,000, and then I have $ 25,000 left to put into the prize fund. Right?
Then I should NOT advertise with "Roy's 9-ball Open, $ 50,000 ADDED" because it is "only" $ 25,000 added.
By doing like Mike is doing, I can advertise with $ 50,000 ADDED and when all players and fans ask me about where's the rest of the money, expecting the prize fund to be $ 25,000 higher, I can say: I have put in lots of time for this, hotel to take care of, rent tables, hire a car etc... I am sure you understand that it is wrong to advertise like that
Whatever I would make on top of that $ 25,000 added shouldn't be anyone's information, except me. If I choose to pay myself $ 10,000 or $ 100 for running the tournament shouldn't matter, as long as what I say is ADDED goes to the prize fund.
I understand and can appreciate your opinion.
Again, I don't think Mike Zuglan owes anyone an explanation. He's been doing this for too long. If people are not happy with the way he runs the Joss Tour, then they shouldn't play.
Of course, the same way Glass City Open ceased to exist, it could be that Zuglan may decide to throw in the towel someday soon. To tell you the truth, I've seen what goes on behind the scenes, and I wouldn't want to do it. There ain't no amount of money in the world that could pay me to endure that kind of abuse.
Maybe that's what people are hoping. Then we can outsource all of our pool tournaments to, say, Philippines. Hey, I got an idea. We could start up a bodyguard service for the traveling pool player because soon there won't be any more American tournaments on our soil. Yeah, that's the ticket. :thumbup:
you are 100% correct. It's basically the same thing Grady argued about on here for a while. The added money should be the actual amount ADDED to the prize fund. If there are 20 players in a $100 entry fee tourney and there is $2500 added, then the total prize fund should = $4500.
If the same tourney with same amount of players pays out $4000 total, then the total amount of added money is $2000.
I have no doubt that Mike Zuglan is a stand up guy and have heard nothing but good things about him. The main reasons this question isn't asked by most players is that 1) they don't want to seem like the are complaining since it is their livelihood and they need the tourney/tour to continue or 2) they simply don't do the math and are none the wiser.
I know one thing. If a bank of mine says they are going to fund a deal for a 2% hedge fee and then I get a check back only totalling 97% of the deal, you can bet your ass that I'm gonna be on the phone asking where the other 1% is.
Roy,
Unfortunately there are many, many Tours here in the States who do little for the players and lots for the organizers. If you were a regular player here you would understand quickly! Some of the tours headline lots and lots of money. When you take the time to read all the printed information, you find we are just playing for each others entry fees. No added money. Or play on my tour and you'll get a free entry into next years final event as the prize. I guess you might consider that added money but I don't! I now have a second set of expences to play another event. Sometimes across the country. Great for the promoter. Guaranteed entries. If you don't show up, all the better.
Some of our better known "philosofers" have said; "a fool and his money are soon parted", "a sucker is born every minute" and my personal favorite "no one every lost a dollar underestimating the intelligence of the American people". Sorry to be so sarcastic. I'm just tired of the BS associated with pool here in America.
Mike Zuglan is a real standup guy. The Joss Tour is the best here in the States. No player has ever not been paid after an event. All the prize money is paid every event. If you consider his advertising for the Turning Stone event smoke and mirrors, oh well. Your loss.
Lyn
PS Why is the sign on your truck in English?
Unfortunately there are many, many Tours here in the States who do little for the players and lots for the organizers. If you were a regular player here you would understand quickly! Some of the tours headline lots and lots of money. When you take the time to read all the printed information, you find we are just playing for each others entry fees. No added money. Or play on my tour and you'll get a free entry into next years final event as the prize. I guess you might consider that added money but I don't! I now have a second set of expences to play another event. Sometimes across the country. Great for the promoter. Guaranteed entries. If you don't show up, all the better.
Some of our better known "philosofers" have said; "a fool and his money are soon parted", "a sucker is born every minute" and my personal favorite "no one every lost a dollar underestimating the intelligence of the American people". Sorry to be so sarcastic. I'm just tired of the BS associated with pool here in America.
Mike Zuglan is a real standup guy. The Joss Tour is the best here in the States. No player has ever not been paid after an event. All the prize money is paid every event. If you consider his advertising for the Turning Stone event smoke and mirrors, oh well. Your loss.
Lyn
PS Why is the sign on your truck in English?
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It's somewhat obvious that you and Mark are trying to cast some sort of dark shadow over the Joss Tour. I don't see either of you questioning the payouts of other recent events. Why is that?
For me, there are no better people than Mike Zuglan and Dan Janes (Joss Cues). Their integrity is beyond reproach and you would be shocked and humbled if you had any idea what these two do to promote our sport.
Again, you've shown a concern about the payouts of this particular event, but not any other recent events. If you really wanted to know, you wouldn't come here, to a public forum to ask the question. You would of just called or emailed Mr. Zuglan, so, why don't you just do that?
Barry Cameron <proud sponsor of Mike Zuglan's NE 9 Ball Tour
Mark specifically cited the recent UPA event as well if you'll reread his original post.
And let's be sure to mention that everyone is paid in CASH.
There are no IOUs or "the check's in the mail."
Everybody is paid in CASH. There ain't nothing better than driving home from a Joss Tour event with a pocket FULL of CASH.
Ah, the good old days!
k: