the thread title TS payout.....
again, anyone that is concerned can Call or Email Mr. Zuglan. I don't understand why you folks can't do that.
Barry Cameron
TS Pay Out?
- Thread starter Flettir
- Start date
the thread title TS payout.....
again, anyone that is concerned can Call or Email Mr. Zuglan. I don't understand why you folks can't do that.
Barry Cameron
Barry, why in the world would you say something like this? (oh, there it is: "Barry Cameron <proud sponsor of Mike Zuglan's NE 9 Ball Tour" OK, just kidding
As Mark and Roy and others have tried to point out (but others have tried to obfuscate) the question is only about truth in advertising. And since all discussions need to start somewhere, the TS event is as good a place to start as anywhere.
Sure, no doubt, MZ is a great guy personally, and done tons for pool professionally. But, for too long, the pool tournament model -- everywhere in the US -- has included some pretty flaky math. Afterwards, the rationale proffered has always been some variation of: he's a great guy, or just, it's better than nothing, and everyone has just has come to accept that that is the way pool tournaments are run.
But sooner or later, who can argue that it would not be a good thing that when a promoter says there's $25K added, there is, well, $25K added and paid out?
No one is saying the promoter should not make money, or have to open up their books to a CPA. Just that they be truthful upfront about the money. I don't think that's too much for the players to expect and it has to start somewhere. And unless this topic is discussed out in the open, on forums like this, it'll never happen. Talking about it here is the first step.
Lou Figueroa
Last edited:
This is my last word on this topic: POLITICS AT ITS FINEST
Because we are discussing what he *advertised* and the discrepancy with what actually happen. IOW, the discussion is based upon what was out in the public domain, so no one should have to call him.
Of course, OTOH, he could come here to explain, so everyone interested can hear what he has to say. I don't understand why he can't do that -- somewhat obviously, there's more than one person interested.
Lou Figueroa
Corvette,
Do you really want to go down the road to Pandora's Box? Finger pointing never got us anywhere. There are many, many events who's finances are very questionable. Sometimes mine, sometimes my competitors. I understand Roy and Mark's concerns. Perhaps Mike Z. will change his poster. Perhaps not! Too much has been made of this already.
Lyn
I don't consider his events smoke and mirrors at all, I am just questioning his way of advertising about added money.
What does the pic in my avatar have to do with this? It's just a photo-shopped pic made by another poster here on AZ.
I have never cared to look at other events, and wouldn't even had done it for this if it weren't because someone mentioned it in this thread. I did the math, and realized that what MZ says is ADDED money clearly is not ADDED.
I am not trying to "cast a shadow" over him and his events specifially, I just wish promoters could advertise correctly.
Barry, why in the world would you say something like this? (oh, there it is: "Barry Cameron <proud sponsor of Mike Zuglan's NE 9 Ball Tour" OK, just kidding
As Mark and Roy and others have tried to point out (but others have tried to obfuscate) the question is only about truth in advertising. And since all discussions need to start somewhere, the TS event is as good a place to start as anywhere.
Sure, no doubt, MZ is a great guy personally, and done tons for pool professionally. But, for too long, the pool tournament model -- everywhere in the US -- has included some pretty flaky math. Afterwards, the rationale proffered has always been some variation of: he's a great guy, or just, it's better than nothing, and everyone has just has come to accept that that is the way pool tournaments are run.
But sooner or later, who can argue that it would not be a good thing that when a promoter says there's $25K added, there is, well, $25K added and paid out?
No one s saying the promoter should not make money, or have to open up their books to a CPA. Just that they be truthful upfront about the money. I don't think that's too much for the players to expect and it has to start somewhere. And unless this is topic is discussed out in the open, on forums like this, it'll never happen. Talking about it here is the first step.
Lou Figueroa
Well said.
tap tap tap
After reading through this thread several times; the only thing I see is a request for greater transparency in the break-down of the pay-outs. If a tournament adverstised an added amount such as T.S. did and then provided to the public a further break-down of the pay-outs to the field, then the promoter should expect the public to do a minimum amount of math to see if the numbers add up. In this case, there is a discrepancy of roughly $2800? I'm not sure what the issue is by some posters that the question cannot be raised without damaging the reputation of the promoter. I don't believe his integrity or his honesty has been questioned here. Clearly, he is well-respected and appreciated by the pool community for his efforts, however, no one is above reproach. And in this instance, a clarification of the discrepancy has been requested for no other reason than it exists. If he does not wish to address this that is his perogative and each individual can make up their own opinion as to why this is.
Further slamming into posters for weighing in with their request for transparency in the numbers that was advertised is in my opinion ridiculous. Why does everything have to end with personal attacks or not so subtle attacks on supposed hidden agendas? A question was raised, either it will be answered by the people who run that tournament or it will not. It doesn't take away from the fact that the pool community as a whole has been on the receiving end of one to many individuals who have looked after their own interests and not the players. Are we not suspicious by nature? Zuglan appears to be one of the few that is promoting the sport in a manner that has garnered respect by others, but simply put, he can still be questioned as can we all.
Personal issues aside, business is business and with the internet being the way it is, every pool business, pool room, pool promoter, cue maker or whatever can expect to have these questions raised in a public forum.
Further slamming into posters for weighing in with their request for transparency in the numbers that was advertised is in my opinion ridiculous. Why does everything have to end with personal attacks or not so subtle attacks on supposed hidden agendas? A question was raised, either it will be answered by the people who run that tournament or it will not. It doesn't take away from the fact that the pool community as a whole has been on the receiving end of one to many individuals who have looked after their own interests and not the players. Are we not suspicious by nature? Zuglan appears to be one of the few that is promoting the sport in a manner that has garnered respect by others, but simply put, he can still be questioned as can we all.
Personal issues aside, business is business and with the internet being the way it is, every pool business, pool room, pool promoter, cue maker or whatever can expect to have these questions raised in a public forum.
good post. I agree with you.
Well said. Tap, tap, tap. Would read again. :smile:
I agree with you. Good post.
TS payouts
I think a person (an active member of AZ) should be able to ask a question without being accused of "casting a dark shadow' over an event.
I have stated I hold MZ in the highest regard. I also was responding to the obvious quesiton after the payouts were posted.
It is a simple question. People ask me questions all the time and I always try to answer.
This should NOT become a personal attack - but it is leaning that way.
This has NOTHING to do with any expenses of the event. It has NOTHING to do with how many years the event has been running or how everyone loves the promoter.
The only thing asked is: What was the added amount?
(To Barry C) I had mentioned the UPA did the same thing in May and it went somewhat unnoticed. Is this becoming the 'new standard' for tournaments?
I did not want this to become the debate is has turned into. I only noticed that the payouts posted did NOT add up and thought someone could or would answer my question. Several posters who are very familiar with the event basically accuse me of 'trying to slander' someone.
That was the furthest thing from my mind.
It is a shame it has to go down this road. Our office puts on a lot of events. Our posters try to say everything in plain english. We still get a lot of calls and AZ questions and we try to answer everyone of them. Is that too much to ask?
Mark Griffin
I think a person (an active member of AZ) should be able to ask a question without being accused of "casting a dark shadow' over an event.
I have stated I hold MZ in the highest regard. I also was responding to the obvious quesiton after the payouts were posted.
It is a simple question. People ask me questions all the time and I always try to answer.
This should NOT become a personal attack - but it is leaning that way.
This has NOTHING to do with any expenses of the event. It has NOTHING to do with how many years the event has been running or how everyone loves the promoter.
The only thing asked is: What was the added amount?
(To Barry C) I had mentioned the UPA did the same thing in May and it went somewhat unnoticed. Is this becoming the 'new standard' for tournaments?
I did not want this to become the debate is has turned into. I only noticed that the payouts posted did NOT add up and thought someone could or would answer my question. Several posters who are very familiar with the event basically accuse me of 'trying to slander' someone.
That was the furthest thing from my mind.
It is a shame it has to go down this road. Our office puts on a lot of events. Our posters try to say everything in plain english. We still get a lot of calls and AZ questions and we try to answer everyone of them. Is that too much to ask?
Mark Griffin
Not Corvette, but yes, please, let's open Pandora's Box on this one. It's not finger pointing, it's asking some simple questions about the math and pool tournaments.
The pool tournament model, such as it broadly exists in this country, is broken and has been for a long, long time. Accurate representation of added monies against actual payouts, can only benefit the players and the sport at large.
Transparency is your friend ;-)
Lou Figueroa
Mark, don't take it personally. This problem -- of some wanting everyone to stick their collective heads in the sand -- is all over AZ nowadays. It would seem that some folks are scared of the light of day, and so, when they hear questions they don't want asked, the AZ Taliban comes out of the wood work and makes false insinuations of hidden agendas and accusations of hating and naysaying.
IOW, "Silence the infidels!"
Was it Voltaire who said, "I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."
Lou Figueroa
I thought we were all here
to talk about pool
Last edited:
Can we just all agree that added money is supposed to go completely to the prize fund?
I understand the intent of this thread (or at least what is has turned into) was to try to get promoters on the same page so they don't advertise things that aren't totally true. I agree that it is wrong that it would be advertised as $25K added when some of that money is going to expenses although it wasn't stated anywhere that all entry fees are paid back so I guess it's not totally false.
Tour promoters have the right to make a living without revealing how much money they are pulling out for themselves in my opinion. Some are more honest than others and I hope we are all in agreement that Mike Zuglan is one of the best and most honest promoters out there.
I understand the intent of this thread (or at least what is has turned into) was to try to get promoters on the same page so they don't advertise things that aren't totally true. I agree that it is wrong that it would be advertised as $25K added when some of that money is going to expenses although it wasn't stated anywhere that all entry fees are paid back so I guess it's not totally false.
Tour promoters have the right to make a living without revealing how much money they are pulling out for themselves in my opinion. Some are more honest than others and I hope we are all in agreement that Mike Zuglan is one of the best and most honest promoters out there.
Lou,
IMHO, this thread will only make the questionable tour promoters hide even deeper behind the numbers game. I've noticed quite a few event promoters headlining their flyers with $2000 or whatever added. Further down the page or in smaller, less noticable lettering is the "based on x number of entries" or whatever number the promoter decides. They know in advance there is no way they will get a full field of players. But it allows them to entice players to come with the "added" money.
During the Valley Forge 10 Ball event, I spoke with one of the few "pro's" in attendence. He is a top young gun. He travelled to VF to play based on the statement "$5000 prize pool guaranteed". Having played in the Super Billiards Expo where first place in the Open was $5000, he assumed it was the same for the 10 ball. First place was actually $1500. He was quite upset. Here's a guy who should have known better. And he makes his living playing pool.
How do the rest of us read and understand payouts? Would re-writing the event flyer change the number of players entered? The field was full in MAY (128 players)! No one has asked for a refund from this event. No one has ever asked for a refund in 13 events because of the payouts. Every event was FULL, every event. The payouts have been the same with the exception of the first event ($50,000 added) and a 96 player event held the same weekend as a UPA Hilton Hotel Tour event (thanks Charlie). As I grew up, one of the statements I heard again and again was "liers figure and figures lie". Promoters obfiscate to add entries. Simple as that. If there's been full disclosure of a tournament payout before the event transpires, I've never seen it! After yes, during yes but not before. Tournaments are held for the benefit of the promoter first and the players second. I think the "build it and they will come" works here.
Lyn
Two Things
Two things in responce to this post. ( I should't but I will )
Number 1: Mike is a ture professional. He has done this for a LONG time and he has one of the longest running tours in the Nation. I think he knows what he is doing. Those tables run $300 Each, plus delivery & set up. And he advertises that there is $41,000 in prizes and if you add it up, it is $41,400 I believe. So he advertised his event properly.
Number 2: This post is the exact reason my tour we are doing 65+10 and 100+10. The 65 & 100 always stays in the pot.
So if we have:
Amateurs 32 = $2080
Pros 16 = $1600
$2,000 Added
Total = $5280
37% First Place = $2101
It will be that simple! So no one can ever question payouts. Players can do the math and see how much money I make off each event too! No big deal we have nothing to hide.
I think the way I am running my tour will set the way for other tours to come, this way there is integrity in the prize pools.
As far as Turning Stone goes Mike knows what he is doing, if he didn't and if there REALLY was something to question, the pros would not come out and the BCA would NOT have asked him to hold that event as a points event. Enough Said.
Two things in responce to this post. ( I should't but I will )
Number 1: Mike is a ture professional. He has done this for a LONG time and he has one of the longest running tours in the Nation. I think he knows what he is doing. Those tables run $300 Each, plus delivery & set up. And he advertises that there is $41,000 in prizes and if you add it up, it is $41,400 I believe. So he advertised his event properly.
Number 2: This post is the exact reason my tour we are doing 65+10 and 100+10. The 65 & 100 always stays in the pot.
So if we have:
Amateurs 32 = $2080
Pros 16 = $1600
$2,000 Added
Total = $5280
37% First Place = $2101
It will be that simple! So no one can ever question payouts. Players can do the math and see how much money I make off each event too! No big deal we have nothing to hide.
I think the way I am running my tour will set the way for other tours to come, this way there is integrity in the prize pools.
As far as Turning Stone goes Mike knows what he is doing, if he didn't and if there REALLY was something to question, the pros would not come out and the BCA would NOT have asked him to hold that event as a points event. Enough Said.
I hope my response to this post will allow everyone to be a little more open-minded toward event promoters.
Do you remember the tournament last year, where Johnny Archer & Co got stiffed for $ 25,000 because a promotor wrote bad checks? If I am not mistaken, Mark bailed him out because he felt sorry for the players.
The majority of the forum here said then that the promotor was a crook and a thief, but you supported him, said that it was not his intentions etc and that he would make it good, even though the fact was that he wrote bad checks to the top finishers in the event + the TD.
Now you are supporting a promotor that is not advertising correctly, and you have no problem supporting people who says that Mark is casting shadows over this event.
What Mark is doing is to support and help the players. He wants the advertised money to be paid in full, nothing more.
You seem to support the crooks and thieves who stiff players, and those who advertise with more added money than they pays out.
Who's side are you really on? The players?
I don't appreciate you writing I "seem to support crooks and thieves." Some people have written previously that there are personal attacks on this thread. How's your shoes fitting, Roy?
You ought to look in your own back yard in Norway and stop harboring terrorists, like Mullah Krekar. This statement makes about as much sense as you stating I support crooks and thieves. LOL
If you want to pick scabs, then convey the truth, Roy, not something you've taken out of context. Yes, I did write that I thought the promoter in Arizona probably had good intentions initially when he attempted to sponsor a UPA event in Arizona, and I also wrote that I think he got in over his head. And, yes, I said I do not believe he went into it wanting to rip everybody off. He had a history, previous to this event, of paying up.
Now, as far as the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour goes, there ain't a tour in this country that could be more fair. It is amazing to me to read such garbage on this thread, some written by people who don't even play pool in the States and/or have never been to a Joss event in their life.
There are also some facts written on this thread by people who do know and have been to the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour events. So which ones are you going to believe?
I know things that I should not know about several "promoters" and how they stuff their pockets behind the scenes, unbeknowst to the public, but I won't write it on this forum. BTW, Mike Zuglan is not one of them.
Here's a little Joss Tour smut. The tables for Turning Stone cost $7,500, if my memory is correct. There are 16 of them in total for the event. BTW, the table installers do not pay for their hotel lodging at the Turning Stone the entire time they are there, approximately a week.
The entry fee for Turning Stone is $150 for most, $200 for some. $30 is taken out of the entry fees to cover the running of the tournament cost and the tournament director (Mike Zuglan). There are also referees and assistants to the tournament director to take into account at all Turning Stone events.
The normal entry fee for the Joss Tour during the rest of the year is $100. $20 is taken out: $10 going to Mike Zuglan for running the tournament, $10 gooing to the host pool room along with a complimentary raffle item that is donated by Joss Tour sponsors.
Anybody who is interested in learning more about the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour should check out the website: http://www.joss9balltour.com. Get your calculators out and check it out.
Oh, one more thing, make sure you all note that Mike Zuglan, a player in his own right, pays his own entry fee and does not get a free ride.
I can provide some more figures, but I'll stop here. I don't think you want to know Mike Zuglan's annual income, or do you? I will say that he qualifies for the New York State's health insurance plan; Healthy New York, I think it's called. The qualification for this plan is based on income.
Glass City Open ceases to exist because of comments and opinions very much like many written on this thread. The American pool culture felt it was too expensive to go to Glass City Open, even though the promoters were barely making ends meet or breaking even, some seasons even taking a loss. Yet, the public still complained. Now there is no more Glass City Open.
Shall we barbecue the Joss Tour now and see if we can get Mike Zuglan to throw in the towel? Is there enough room in this pool world for the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour to exist? Is it a threat to other events? Is it a welcome treat for the players who participate in it?
Two of the most successful pool events in these United States that sell out ahead of time are Allen Hopkins' pro tournament at Super Billiards Expo and Mike Zuglan's twice-a-year Turning Stone Casino event.
If you ever went to Super Billiards Expo and added up all the entry fees for each and every tournament, you may be surprised. It costs a lot of money to run that pool mecca. Nobody is asking Allen Hopkins to provide a profit-and-loss statement. Yet, we all keep coming back. Why? Because it's probably one of most well-run pool exhibitions in the country, like the Joss Turning Stone.
Last edited: