I 100% agree. Donny should have had Shaw rack for himself then scrutinize the rack for 15 minutes. Was watching thru AZB post.
Turning Stone
- Thread starter Dimeball
- Start date
For those who say rules should be changed to avoid this issue, that is a fair point. Under the current rules, however, Jayson Shaw should indeed inspect the rack. Those who don't understand this haven't competed at this level. Everyone can run out. Whoever has better success making a ball and getting control of the table is the favorite to win the match. You can't spot the other guy twice as many at bats and expect to win.
As for the "They should hit it hard like in the old days" crowd, this isn't the old days. The rack has been studied and solved. It is no longer a 'break', but rather a combination shot. If you rack for your opponent and make sure that combination is on, and when they rack for you they allow gaps that prevent it from going, then you either address it or you lose. It is that simple. Don't get upset with Shaw. Get upset with the rules if you must, because the drive player behavior.
As for those who don't like the rules, Zuglan talked about this at the players meeting. He has used the same breaking rules for 20 years or more. He says everyone else changes tournament to tournament and it hasn't stayed the same from group to group or year to year. He thinks that is bad for pool. He says if everyone in the world comes together and does the same thing for a duration of time, he is happy to adapt and follow that lead. But as long as it changes from tournament to tournament and promoter to promoter and season to season he is going to keep doing what they've been doing since the tournament began. He feels there is value in consistency and doing what works and what players respect.
It's a no win. Change things and people complain, don't change things and people complain. It is no wonder that Matchroom and Mike Z both have taken the stance of "I don't care what anyone says anymore, I'm running this thing and I'm doing what I'm doing, people can play or not play, and if everyone on the internet wants to whine about it then they are free to do so". It's just an ocean of negativity. We could be talking about a great performance by Donny and a growing number of wins for Shaw, but instead we'll derail and argue about racking endlessly. I guess it's the same if Shaw runs 1,000 and people immediately will ask if he cleaned the cue ball what angles the pockets were cut at. It's fatiguing. I know people are passionate about the game and mean well, but sometimes having good intentions about wanting things to be perfect comes out as a cancerous dissatisfaction of those doing a great job.
I can only play 4-6 tournaments a year and the two Turning Stone events are a permanent fixture on my calendar. They run on time with posted times, are run well, are at the same time every year for planning purposes, fill every time, and are very player friendly. I think Mike Z is the best tournament director in the US and the best thing for pool we have. I wish I lived NE and could play all of his events. And I wish he expanded his tour to a larger scale to provide more opportunity.
As for the "They should hit it hard like in the old days" crowd, this isn't the old days. The rack has been studied and solved. It is no longer a 'break', but rather a combination shot. If you rack for your opponent and make sure that combination is on, and when they rack for you they allow gaps that prevent it from going, then you either address it or you lose. It is that simple. Don't get upset with Shaw. Get upset with the rules if you must, because the drive player behavior.
As for those who don't like the rules, Zuglan talked about this at the players meeting. He has used the same breaking rules for 20 years or more. He says everyone else changes tournament to tournament and it hasn't stayed the same from group to group or year to year. He thinks that is bad for pool. He says if everyone in the world comes together and does the same thing for a duration of time, he is happy to adapt and follow that lead. But as long as it changes from tournament to tournament and promoter to promoter and season to season he is going to keep doing what they've been doing since the tournament began. He feels there is value in consistency and doing what works and what players respect.
It's a no win. Change things and people complain, don't change things and people complain. It is no wonder that Matchroom and Mike Z both have taken the stance of "I don't care what anyone says anymore, I'm running this thing and I'm doing what I'm doing, people can play or not play, and if everyone on the internet wants to whine about it then they are free to do so". It's just an ocean of negativity. We could be talking about a great performance by Donny and a growing number of wins for Shaw, but instead we'll derail and argue about racking endlessly. I guess it's the same if Shaw runs 1,000 and people immediately will ask if he cleaned the cue ball what angles the pockets were cut at. It's fatiguing. I know people are passionate about the game and mean well, but sometimes having good intentions about wanting things to be perfect comes out as a cancerous dissatisfaction of those doing a great job.
I can only play 4-6 tournaments a year and the two Turning Stone events are a permanent fixture on my calendar. They run on time with posted times, are run well, are at the same time every year for planning purposes, fill every time, and are very player friendly. I think Mike Z is the best tournament director in the US and the best thing for pool we have. I wish I lived NE and could play all of his events. And I wish he expanded his tour to a larger scale to provide more opportunity.
His fans are loving it saw more than one smile and heard laughter near the mic and far from it.
mcenroe was just a hothead, earl is bonafide crazy
A few time-related facts about the Finals.
The average elapsed time per game was 5.5 minutes, including racking. This was the 8th lowest average of the 20 streamed matches I tracked. The average for all 20 matches combined was 5.9 minutes per game.
The average of 5.5 minutes per game consisted of about:
The average elapsed time per game was 5.5 minutes, including racking. This was the 8th lowest average of the 20 streamed matches I tracked. The average for all 20 matches combined was 5.9 minutes per game.
The average of 5.5 minutes per game consisted of about:
3.2 minutes of "playing" time, i.e., from the break shot for each game until the final ball was pocketed -- 58% of the total
2.3 minutes of "racking" time, i.e., from the end of one game until the break shot for the next game -- 42% of the total
Here is the distribution of racking and playing times (minutes and seconds) for the 18 games, with racking times first:1:07 to 1:29 -- 7, 0
1:30 to 1:59 -- 3, 2
2:00 to 2:59 -- 2, 8
3:00 to 3:59 -- 3, 5
4:00 to 4:59 -- 3, 2
5:09 -- 0, 1
[Naturally, someone else noting the start and stop points for these elapsed times could differ from my times by a few seconds.]
Note: The playing times for this match would be considerably shorter than for most of the other matches. Half of the games were B&Rs, only two games made it as far as the breaker's 3rd visit to the table, and neither player is slow.Shaw may well have been within his rights to ask for rerack after rerack, but it is bad for the fan experience. It’s one thing if it were a gambling match, but this was a tournament with live viewers and people watching it streamed. It absurd that it was taking over 2 minutes to rack. Obviously either a ref or a template rack is needed.
Agree. I was kind of surprised that Zuglan didn't say or do anything. Perhaps he didn't because the overall elapsed time was not excessive. But I have seen him go so far as to assign an independent racker and charge the players to pay the racker.
Should half the table time (or 42% according to Atlarge) at a pool tournament final be spent squabbling about the rack? How can that be good for anyone? It looks like the stands were empty from the few shots I saw, and it's easy enough to do something else for a while when you're watching a stream, so perhaps it doesn't matter.
I don’t blame Shaw even a little bit, and I’ve known Donny since when he couldn’t get out with ball in hand on the 7. Donny can flat out manipulate the rack with the best of them. Not saying he was doing anything, just saying he knows how to so Shaw had to keep an eye on him.
It's not Shaw's fault, it is the tournament director for allowing this to occur- at least bring in a ref to rack if this stuff is happening in the finals
I play a guy every Monday. I can’t get him to play for squat. Nothing. Nada. Yet he complains about the rack from time to time. I want to tell him to get over it. We are just banging balls as far as I’m concerned. Put something on the line or shut the f“”k up.
He does this over and over at every TS.
He is an absentee TD at every TS. Its a mockery that much time spent racking. If he had a brain he could see his rules blow.
On to the next event. LOL
NY, NY, NY. LMFAO
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So he can't complain because he isn't betting?
That's weak.
Ho-Hum.
Exactly right. Mike Zuglan usually only gets involved when matches fall behind schedule, but if he sees a dispute that is escalating, he'll rule on a situation with promptness and authority.
I agree with Tin Man that he's the best tournament director in America. He puts out fires quickly and always makes sure that things remain on schedule.
Turning Stone is a beloved event and Mike has to turn away hopeful entrants every time. The field of 128 always fills up in a hurry.
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Jayson Shaw is not the only one who has issues with players who are rack mechanics.
There are plenty of cry babies in professional pool, but for some reason only certain players get singled out.
soyale
Well-known member
it really is just as simple as that.
Rack riggers. It all came to the fore big time after Tucker's book. I remember hearing players talk outside in smoke breaks about if there's a gap here, hit the rack this way or that way, et cetera.
I agree that Zuglan's Joss Tour is a huge success and is the longest-running regional tour in USA. It's his rules and his event. If people don't like it, they don't have to play. Zuglan doesn't bend for anybody, whether you're Efren Reyes or an unknown entity. He's always been like that, but this stance on how things are run his way works. He's fair, and that's what I like about him best.
One time Johnny Archer and Keith McCready got into a back-and-forth about racking at the Turning Stone. It escalated into a loud verbal back-and-forth. Each time Keith racked, Johnny complained about it. I was in the stands, so I couldn't see how Keith was racking, but knowing Keith as well as I do, sad to say, he has no idea how to rig a rack or break a rigged rack. I always wished he did. Eventually, they sent a referee over to Johnny and Keith's table to rack the rest of the match, no questions allowed and no re-rack allowed. Johnny won, and as we were leaving the venue room, I remember I couldn't hold back my tears. Johnny saw I was upset and came over to me. He shared some very kind words. I will never forget it. Even though he and Keith got into it, it was just business. He told me he loved Keith and me both.
One suggestion, though, is for the finals is to have a neutral racker, no questions allowed and no re-rack allowed, but then again that would seem unfair to the rest of the matches that occurred beforehand that had the loser of the frame racking.
I agree that Zuglan's Joss Tour is a huge success and is the longest-running regional tour in USA. It's his rules and his event. If people don't like it, they don't have to play. Zuglan doesn't bend for anybody, whether you're Efren Reyes or an unknown entity. He's always been like that, but this stance on how things are run his way works. He's fair, and that's what I like about him best.
One time Johnny Archer and Keith McCready got into a back-and-forth about racking at the Turning Stone. It escalated into a loud verbal back-and-forth. Each time Keith racked, Johnny complained about it. I was in the stands, so I couldn't see how Keith was racking, but knowing Keith as well as I do, sad to say, he has no idea how to rig a rack or break a rigged rack. I always wished he did. Eventually, they sent a referee over to Johnny and Keith's table to rack the rest of the match, no questions allowed and no re-rack allowed. Johnny won, and as we were leaving the venue room, I remember I couldn't hold back my tears. Johnny saw I was upset and came over to me. He shared some very kind words. I will never forget it. Even though he and Keith got into it, it was just business. He told me he loved Keith and me both.
One suggestion, though, is for the finals is to have a neutral racker, no questions allowed and no re-rack allowed, but then again that would seem unfair to the rest of the matches that occurred beforehand that had the loser of the frame racking.