Two Foul 9 ball Official Rules

M

Magog30

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Putting the call out for CJ or another big proponent of 2F9B to give us all the rules. For those of us who only understand BIH. Here is my limited understanding:

After the first foul the cue ball is played in position (Or behind the headstring in the event of a scratch) with the incoming player having the option of playing or passing to the fouler. If the cue ball scratched and the low ball is behind the headstring then also an option to spot the low ball.

If the next shot after the first foul is also a foul then the incoming player gets ball in hand. It doesn't matter which player is shooting, if this shot is a foul then Ball in Hand is awarded.

The foul count resets and there is no 3 foul rule. So if the player took Ball in Hand and fouled, that would be considered foul 1 and rules for 1st foul above would apply.

Spotting balls: I assume that all illegally pocketed balls and balls driven off the table are spotted.

Break shot: A foul on the break would be the 1st foul and the same rules would apply. I would also suggest that the incoming player should have the option to rerack and Break if the foul is not making an Open break (4 balls to a cushion). Is this the way it was played back in the day?

Are these all the differences to modern 9 ball? Was there a rule against short cues?

I think that more players would start playing 2F9B if everyone was clear on the rules. Also, the game has a better chance of a comeback if all 2F9B players are playing by the same rules.
 
Magog30 said:
Putting the call out for CJ or another big proponent of 2F9B to give us all the rules. For those of us who only understand BIH. Here is my limited understanding:

After the first foul the cue ball is played in position (Or behind the headstring in the event of a scratch) with the incoming player having the option of playing or passing to the fouler. If the cue ball scratched and the low ball is behind the headstring then also an option to spot the low ball.

If the next shot after the first foul is also a foul then the incoming player gets ball in hand. It doesn't matter which player is shooting, if this shot is a foul then Ball in Hand is awarded.

The foul count resets and there is no 3 foul rule. So if the player took Ball in Hand and fouled, that would be considered foul 1 and rules for 1st foul above would apply.

Spotting balls: I assume that all illegally pocketed balls and balls driven off the table are spotted.

Break shot: A foul on the break would be the 1st foul and the same rules would apply. I would also suggest that the incoming player should have the option to rerack and Break if the foul is not making an Open break (4 balls to a cushion). Is this the way it was played back in the day?

Are these all the differences to modern 9 ball? Was there a rule against short cues?

I think that more players would start playing 2F9B if everyone was clear on the rules. Also, the game has a better chance of a comeback if all 2F9B players are playing by the same rules.
Click to expand...

First off - IMHO - 2foul, or as I like to call it, the dreaded pushout, should
only be played the way it was played in Johnston City, since they
invented it.

Mostly this means: you only get BIH when your opponent fouls on
two consective shots. Other than that, it was played just like
real 9 Ball. The key was serious players all played you could make your
opponent shoot-again if they failed to make a good hit.

There were no break requirements about how many object balls did what,
Corey Duel hadn't even been born yet. Oddly, no one seemed to play
the 3-foul-loss rule, which was the first change the Janscos made - IIRC

Dale
 
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Good luck with that! According the CJ there are three different ways of playing.

Edit: As far as I ever heard there are no official rules for push out 9 ball. Don't forget, for a long time, 9 ball was only thought of as gambling game. Tournament play didn't get off the ground until the current rules convinced people that they had more of a chance to beat better players playing by those rules rather than the push out rules. Not really true;)
 
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The only three-foul-loss-of-game rule that I remember in the early '70s was in One Pocket and only when playing for money. I never heard of it in any other game until the late '70s/early '80s referring to the ball-in-hand-anywhere rules for 9 ball. I agree that there is a whole lot of confusion about the push out rules, a lot of people don't seem to understand that pushing out at any time was not viable option. And, you never had to push out. Also, whether you are playing two fouls by the same player or any two fouls. We only played any two fouls and I never even saw two fouls by the same player played.
I posted quite a lengthy post on the old usenet newsgroup rec.sport.billiard about this years ago but Google doesn't go back far enough to retrieve it, unfortunately. There is a whole lot more to this game than just knowing the rules. It took a lot of experience, which is one of the reasons I doubt it will catch on again. It took way, way more thinking than the current rules.
 
Pushout said:
The only three-foul-loss-of-game rule that I remember in the early '70s was in One Pocket and only when playing for money. I never heard of it in any other game until the late '70s/early '80s referring to the ball-in-hand-anywhere rules for 9 ball. I agree that there is a whole lot of confusion about the push out rules, a lot of people don't seem to understand that pushing out at any time was not viable option. And, you never had to push out. Also, whether you are playing two fouls by the same player or any two fouls. We only played any two fouls and I never even saw two fouls by the same player played.
I posted quite a lengthy post on the old usenet newsgroup rec.sport.billiard about this years ago but Google doesn't go back far enough to retrieve it, unfortunately. There is a whole lot more to this game than just knowing the rules. It took a lot of experience, which is one of the reasons I doubt it will catch on again. It took way, way more thinking than the current rules.
Click to expand...
Interesting...I did not know 3foul to 9b may be attributed to the janscos.

What happened in stalemate situations, pushout? Game played over?
 
Pushout said:
The only three-foul-loss-of-game rule that I remember in the early '70s was in One Pocket and only when playing for money. I never heard of it in any other game until the late '70s/early '80s referring to the ball-in-hand-anywhere rules for 9 ball. I agree that there is a whole lot of confusion about the push out rules, a lot of people don't seem to understand that pushing out at any time was not viable option. And, you never had to push out. Also, whether you are playing two fouls by the same player or any two fouls. We only played any two fouls and I never even saw two fouls by the same player played.
I posted quite a lengthy post on the old usenet newsgroup rec.sport.billiard about this years ago but Google doesn't go back far enough to retrieve it, unfortunately. There is a whole lot more to this game than just knowing the rules. It took a lot of experience, which is one of the reasons I doubt it will catch on again. It took way, way more thinking than the current rules.
Click to expand...

Looks like there were lots of things you never heard of.

When you say 'not a viable option' what does that mean?

By the mid 60s no one who could run 3 balls played anything but pushout.
And they ONLY played 2 fouls by the same player.

Where was it that any two fouls was played - 'cause I never even heard
rumors of it untill someone mentioned it on AZB.

Dale(who never heard lots of things)
 
Pushout said:
Good luck with that! According the CJ there are three different ways of playing.

Edit: As far as I ever heard there are no official rules for push out 9 ball. Don't forget, for a long time, 9 ball was only thought of as gambling game. Tournament play didn't get off the ground until the current rules convinced people that they had more of a chance to beat better players playing by those rules rather than the push out rules. Not really true;)
Click to expand...

I think the change to 1 foul was done for the same reason as the change
to 2 foul. Promoters wanted to avoid matches that degraded into endless
safety lags, that put the spectators into a coma. AFAIK - improved odds
for the weaker player never entered into the decision.

Dale
 
Yes, 2-foul was played

pdcue said:
Looks like there were lots of things you never heard of.

When you say 'not a viable option' what does that mean?

By the mid 60s no one who could run 3 balls played anything but pushout.
And they ONLY played 2 fouls by the same player.

Where was it that any two fouls was played - 'cause I never even heard
rumors of it untill someone mentioned it on AZB.

Dale(who never heard lots of things)
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. As I've posted before, I saw the strong players playing 2-foul in the 50s and 60s. Usually, it gave the opponent BIH from the kitchen.

I also saw them playing 3 consecutive fouls by one player was loss of game. This was carried over into the 8-ball leagues. The NPBA played 2-foul BIH beginning in 1959. The VNEA and the BCA played 3 consecutive fouls by one player was loss of game during the '80s. I'm quite familiar with this as I knew the team that used the rule so often that people complained till the rule was abandoned...
 
Like bar room eight ball, there are different rules and ones especially designed to give one player an advantage over another. I also remember a nurse rule where the ball being toyed with or the cue ball have to contact a different rail after the third hit or BIH. Spot all balls, all balls down? Shoot from kitchen. Scratch and incoming came make opponent shoot again. No jump cues.
 
pdcue said:
AFAIK - improved odds
for the weaker player never entered into the decision.

Dale
Click to expand...

Dale,
I didn't mean that it was intended to be that way, just that that's how some players viewed it, in my pinion.
 
pdcue said:
Looks like there were lots of things you never heard of.

When you say 'not a viable option' what does that mean?

By the mid 60s no one who could run 3 balls played anything but pushout.
And they ONLY played 2 fouls by the same player.

Where was it that any two fouls was played - 'cause I never even heard
rumors of it untill someone mentioned it on AZB.

Dale(who never heard lots of things)
Click to expand...

I wasn't clear on the viable option, I meant that when playing any two, you wanted to avoid making the second foul. There are a lot of people here who played any two, it's been mentioned in this topic in other threads.
Until about two weeks ago, I never heard of a 10 ball ring game with 3 money balls:confused:
 
Apologies to the OP. I didn't set out to hijack your thread. Sorry for the soapbox rant. If I post about the rules I tend to get into strategy, also.:sorry:
 
Magog30 said:
Putting the call out for CJ or another big proponent of 2F9B to give us all the rules. For those of us who only understand BIH. Here is my limited understanding:

After the first foul the cue ball is played in position (Or behind the headstring in the event of a scratch) with the incoming player having the option of playing or passing to the fouler. If the cue ball scratched and the low ball is behind the headstring then also an option to spot the low ball.

If the next shot after the first foul is also a foul then the incoming player gets ball in hand. It doesn't matter which player is shooting, if this shot is a foul then Ball in Hand is awarded.

The foul count resets and there is no 3 foul rule. So if the player took Ball in Hand and fouled, that would be considered foul 1 and rules for 1st foul above would apply.

Spotting balls: I assume that all illegally pocketed balls and balls driven off the table are spotted.

Break shot: A foul on the break would be the 1st foul and the same rules would apply. I would also suggest that the incoming player should have the option to rerack and Break if the foul is not making an Open break (4 balls to a cushion). Is this the way it was played back in the day?

Are these all the differences to modern 9 ball? Was there a rule against short cues?

I think that more players would start playing 2F9B if everyone was clear on the rules. Also, the game has a better chance of a comeback if all 2F9B players are playing by the same rules.
Click to expand...
Around here in the 1960s those were pretty much the rules as I remember them. In particular, the two foul count was on both players as above so any second foul gave ball in hand. I think there were the following minor differences from above:

If the object ball was behind the line on a scratch, it spotted with no choice. Maybe I just never saw an applicable situation.

I don't think I ever saw a re-rack on the break.

There were no short cues and few if any break cues. Some players broke with house cues. Any jumping was with your playing cue but not many jumped -- it was better to push out, usually. Jumping was actually easier then as the cloth was thicker and you could get a lot more loft with your playing stick.

All balls spotted in numerical order. If the spot area was congested, it could be really hard to hit the lowest spotted ball.
 
With no official rules when you were gambling, on the break, if there was a miscue and the cue ball didn't hit the rack, the shooting player would usually stop the cue ball with their stick and set up to re-break the balls. No foul. Not in tourney play. It was the first foul.

If the cue ball didn't hit the one ball, it was the first foul and the incoming player had the option to shoot the cue ball where it landed or give it back. All balls usually stayed down if any pocketed.

If the cue ball "golfed" off of the table, or scratched in a hole without contacting the balls, it was the first foul and the incoming player could choose to break or give it back.

I played in a lot of two foul tourneys and they were all any two fouls. Whether they were national level or local events, everybody knew and played the same way. Certain changes were added per the TD, but the rules were mainly like the gambling session version.

Best,
Mike
 
Pushout said:
I wasn't clear on the viable option, I meant that when playing any two, you wanted to avoid making the second foul. There are a lot of people here who played any two, it's been mentioned in this topic in other threads.
Until about two weeks ago, I never heard of a 10 ball ring game with 3 money balls:confused:
Click to expand...

Well, it just goes to show you how fixated I was/am on 2 foul as it was
played in my area. It is obvious even to me that if you are playing any 2
fouls, you can't push out after a foul. And to be perfectly honest, that
is one reason any 2 just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

FWIW - I was as far as you could be from a road player in the pushout
days, but I saw every 9 Ball champion known to man, except Keith Mc,
at the old Dayton tournaments. Tho the tournament was 1 foul, most of
the head-to-head gambling was still 2 foul, and they all played 2 by the
same player.

Now that the old memory is getting in stroke - I do believe the Jansco bros
changed their tournaments to 1 foul.

Hopefully, the OP doesn't view us as highjackers - IMHO the exchanges
in this thread are as close as you can get to 'official' rules for pushout:)

Dale
 
Two fouls by the same player was the precursor to one foul 9 ball. Two fouls allowed for a second push out, slowing the game down. One foul eliminated both push outs to speed the game up

The way they did this was simple. If player A rolls out, they are on one foul. Player B, in turn, also rolls out. Player A gives the shot back to player B, who hits the object ball and sends the cue ball to a safe position. Player A has to kick at the object ball because they are still on one foul. If they commit the second foul, BIH is given to player B.

To eliminate these extra turns at the table, TE/one foul 9 ball forces the player to kick at the ball without rolling out. Though it is more of a crapshoot, it is faster. Two fouls by any player is somewhere between the two games in terms of speed with only one push out being allowed.

In my experience, two foul 9 ball rarely gave a player BIH, unless they were playing at a lower level of ability. The top players rarely gave it up for obvious reasons.

Best,
Mike
 
.the assassination of the game was certainly a shame.

I've played '2 Shot Shoot Out' most parts of the country and it was definitely the rules gamblers prefered playing 9 Ball.

When one foul started being used it was a big equalizer and promoters liked it because more players felt they had a chance to win....resulting in more entrees and more profit for the organizers/promoters.

"Any Two Fouls" is the way I played 80% of my gambling matches. I had an advantage playing "Two Fouls by the Same Player" because I could roll out to more shots than most players.....jump shots, thin cuts, multiple rail banks, etc.

Gambling at 9 ball is a lot of fun playing 'Two Shot', but one foul killed all the action because it took most of the strategy out of the game.....the assassination of the gambling game was certainly a shame.....maybe it'll come back someday, but doubtful.

'The Game is the Teacher'




pdcue said:
Well, it just goes to show you how fixated I was/am on 2 foul as it was
played in my area. It is obvious even to me that if you are playing any 2
fouls, you can't push out after a foul. And to be perfectly honest, that
is one reason any 2 just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

FWIW - I was as far as you could be from a road player in the pushout
days, but I saw every 9 Ball champion known to man, except Keith Mc,
at the old Dayton tournaments. Tho the tournament was 1 foul, most of
the head-to-head gambling was still 2 foul, and they all played 2 by the
same player.

Now that the old memory is getting in stroke - I do believe the Jansco bros
changed their tournaments to 1 foul.

Hopefully, the OP doesn't view us as highjackers - IMHO the exchanges
in this thread are as close as you can get to 'official' rules for pushout:)

Dale
Click to expand...
 
I'm bumping this old thread. CJ has been talking about a new game with the best attributes of 2 foul. I think it could be great!
 
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