Two-Foul 9 Ball

[jay helfert]

"Any two" was the best way to play.

"Two by the same player" could pretty much be like "one foul" at times. You push out and the guy takes the shot and hooks you...now you're stuck trying to hit it if you could.


Anybody remember the guy that played "two by the same player" better than anyone in the world?

It's how he got his original nickname.


What was it...ummm...ahhh...oh yah, I remember now....Mike "Captain Hook" Sigel.

Once he makes a good hit you are no longer on a foul. All fouls are off after a good hit is made. So in this instance you can push out again.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Once he makes a good hit you are no longer on a foul. All fouls are off after a good hit is made. So in this instance you can push out again.

Some played that any good hit erased any/all fouls. Some played that the original "pusher" was still on a foul if his opponent played a safety by hitting the object ball and not fouling. I clearly wrote that in the very 1st post in this thread.

ONB

 

[jay helfert]

People generally played either way in most parts of the country. It was our objective to get them to play "any two fouls" because then they couldn't "re roll out"....this favored us because the true "road warriors" were shot makers and could jump, cut, and bank equally well.

Usually every player has a weakness and the strategy was to exploit it over time in a certain way to make the other player "weak".....and eventually start dogging it. When someone finally reached that point, form my experience they rarely wanted to play again.......every....although there were exceptions of course.

The strategy in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is extremely advanced at the highest level, we'd still like to show everyone why it's more strategically advanced than One Pocket.

We are all talking about the obvious strategies, however, there's a level that's much more advanced, the level that players like Vernon Elliot, Omaha John, Keith McCready, Earl Strickland, and David Matlock played at.

These are the players I learned from and played against through the years and they were on the Third Level.......the level of "Dead Stroke" in "TWO SHOT" where the game seemed to play through them and the creativity of shots sky rocketed into the "4th Dimension"......this is when Pocket Billiards is at it's best and is the Master Game.

It's very entertaining to see, I'm in the process of matching up some 'Two Shot Shoot Out' games in the future, I'd like to play Rodney, Earl, Johnny, Corey, Dennis Hatch, and Shannon Dalton at some point......we may be able to get these matches televised, and we can definitely get them streamed here in Ft. Worth Texas.

Yet Parica came over here, never having played this game before, and beat all these guys, right down there in Texas! I guess he was just a quick learner, took him about three hours, not three weeks, to learn this ultra complicated game. LOL

Did you play Parica back then or did you duck him like so many others did? Just wondering. I can also ask him when I get home. :smile:

 

[CJ Wiley]

"One Foul" really diluted the 9 Ball game into something it was never meant to be.

My mistake, I didn't see anything about "two-foul" in your post. From all appearances you are not "on topic" as you say.

I am not now nor never was a "high caliber player".

ONB

We have been talking about 'Two Shot Shoot Out' in another thread that had a lot of activity and we took it for granted that everyone knew, but I'll make sure to clarify it.....I went back and did so, as I don't want there to be any misunderstanding.

Many of us believe the movement to "One Foul" really diluted the 9 Ball game into something it was never meant to be. The change to 10 Ball was just a "bandaid" and didn't address the core problem, which was the lack of entertainment as a result of "ball-in-hand".

I don't have to re re read you original post. You followed you description of that "other way to play" by saying it was ridiculous and you are right....it is ridiculous to play that way and I have not seen any serious players ever play like that ....it would be silly and.........ridiculous.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Once he makes a good hit you are no longer on a foul. All fouls are off after a good hit is made. So in this instance you can push out again.

I grew up playing the way Jay is saying. Once a legal hit is made on a ball, ALL fouls are OFF and the process starts over again.

 

[CJ Wiley]

We played One Pocket in Baton Rouge

Yet Parica came over here, never having played this game before, and beat all these guys, right down there in Texas! I guess he was just a quick learner, took him about three hours, not three weeks, to learn this ultra complicated game. LOL

Did you play Parica back then or did you duck him like so many others did? Just wondering. I can also ask him when I get home. :smile:

I have a feeling it would have took him over 3 hours to beat Buddy Hall....but of course he never would play Buddy 'Two Shot Shoot Out', and for a very good reason.

Parica and I played One Pocket in Baton Rouge, but we may have "trapped" him up a bit. I gave Billy Incardona the Wild 6 ball, and I think that was tougher than playing Parica, especially on those wet tables.

Pool's just a game, I always kept it in perspective, it's not MMA.....I played on my own money, but did have guys like "Strong Arm John" and Weldon Rogers in with me......they wanted me to play anyone, and I usually accommodated them, they just matched up the games and I played.....very simple, very easy.

 

[CJ Wiley]

That would have to be called "One and a Half Shot Shoot Out"

Some played that any good hit erased any/all fouls. Some played that the original "pusher" was still on a foul if his opponent played a safety by hitting the object ball and not fouling. I clearly wrote that in the very 1st post in this thread.

ONB

I have to respectfully disagree, no one that I've ever seen played where the guy was still on "1 foul" after a legal hit was made....that would be ruin the game that we're talking about is so great.

That would have to be called "One and a Half Shot Shoot Out" or something like that. :groucho:

 

[stevelomako]

Wow

I can't believe people don't know the difference between "two by the same player" and "two in a row".



"Two in a row" is any two, doesn't matter if it's the same player or one by both.


"Two by the same player", when a guy pushes out and the other player shoots...the foul doesn't get wiped out....duh!





And some of you guys really know better.

 

[jay helfert]

I have a feeling it would have took him over 3 hours to beat Buddy Hall....but of course he never would play Buddy 'Two Shot Shoot Out', and for a very good reason.

Parica and I played One Pocket in Baton Rouge, but we may have "trapped" him up a bit. I gave Billy Incardona the Wild 6 ball, and I think that was tougher than playing Parica, especially on those wet tables.

Pool's just a game, I always kept it in perspective, it's not MMA.....I played on my own money, but did have guys like "Strong Arm John" and Weldon Rogers in with me......they wanted me to play anyone, and I usually accommodated them, they just matched up the games and I played.....very simple, very easy.

Buddy ducked him and that's a fact. Looks like you weren't too anxious to play him any Nine or Ten Ball either. There's no shame in that since we all know he was the best player in the world at those games for many years! Everyone ducked Parica for about 20 years, truth be told!

Giving Billy the six is impressive, but not as much as your pursuit of a certain Mr. Reyes, who you played several times (for serious numbers) until he gave you up! Nice shooting Sir! :thumbup2:

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Any Two Fouls" means you can't "Re Roll Out" but the fouls are still cleared

Wow

I can't believe people don't know the difference between "two by the same player" and "two in a row".



"Two in a row" is any two, doesn't matter if it's the same player or one by both.


"Two by the same player", when a guy pushes out and the other player shoots...the foul doesn't get wiped out....duh!

And some of you guys really know better.

Of course we know the difference....you have to wipe out the foul or the other player could shoot every roll out and hook you so you'd have to "kick" at the shot....this would be a ridiculous way to play....or they could make the shot and run two balls and "hook" you like "One Foul".......this is NOT the way 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is played by anyone that I've ever seen and I've been around it as much as most players except maybe Buddy, Lassiter and that generation because that's all they played back in the 60s and 70s (before my time).

"Any Two Fouls" means you can't "Re Roll Out" but the fouls are still cleared on a legal hit.....so there is two ways to play, but BOTH of them clear fouls after a legal hit. So if a player rolls out and you shoot it and foul the other player gets ball-in-hand anywhere on the table.

 

[CJ Wiley]

It's hard to imagine Buddy ducking anyone playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out'

Buddy ducked him and that's a fact. Looks like you weren't too anxious to play him any Nine or Ten Ball either. There's no shame in that since we all know he was the best player in the world at those games for many years! Everyone ducked Parica for about 20 years, truth be told!

Giving Billy the six is impressive, but not as much as your pursuit of a certain Mr. Reyes, who you played several times (for serious numbers) until he gave you up! Nice shooting Sir! :thumbup2:

It's hard to imagine Buddy ducking anyone playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out'. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and ask Buddy for his opinion on the matter. Buddy could have got staked by Monrow Brock or TR anytime, so I would be surprised if he wouldn't take a free shot.....but who knows, stranger things have happened on planet earth.

I may have not been "anxious" to play Parica, but I can't remember anyone claiming he could "walk on water" or anything outlandish like that. I definitely would have played him in Vegas when I was there playing Mark Tadd....I had the green light to play anyone and we had won a sack full of "coupons".

He's a great player, no doubt, but I never thought he played One Pocket as well as Efren, and Buddy was clearly not inferior to him playing 9 Ball.

I'm pretty sure Wade Crane would have had a great chance against Parica and I'll have to see if they actually played.....Wade's break would have been tough to overcome at times and he was an overly confident player....this is the first time I've ever heard "everyone" ducked Parica for 20 years...hmmmm.....interesting, very, very interesting.

 

[JC]

Absolutely incorrect. Top players and very good players give up too much weight and lose everyday. Just because you're the weaker player doesn't mean you are going to lose.

ONB

Now you're talking about the weight? Wasn't the conversation about the rules?

Two entirely different things.

JC

 

[stevelomako]

Of course we know the difference....you have to wipe out the foul or the other player could shoot every roll out and hook you so you'd have to "kick" at the shot....this would be a ridiculous way to play....or they could make the shot and run two balls and "hook" you like "One Foul".......this is NOT the way 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is played by anyone that I've ever seen and I've been around it as much as most players except maybe Buddy, Lassiter and that generation because that's all they played back in the 60s and 70s (before my time). You are explaining "two by the same player. Thats why Mike "Captain Hook" Sigel got his name. And you could make a couple of balls...then hook the guy and he'd have to hit the ball because he's on ONE FOUL.

"Any Two Fouls" means you can't "Re Roll Out" but the fouls are still cleared on a legal hit.....so there is two ways to play, but BOTH of them clear fouls after a legal hit. The only one that clears the first foul is "two in a row"...period. So if a player rolls out and you shoot it and foul the other player gets ball-in-hand anywhere on the table.

CJ,

There were/are 2 (two) ways to play two shot shoot out..."two by the same player" and "two in a row".

Different parts of the country played different ways, we had to always ask, "How are we we playing?, two in a row or two by the same?"


Thats it...two different ways and it made each game very different.




Came back to add this >: I was wrong...technically there are more than 2 ways to play.

 

[Mikjary]

A legal hit reset all fouls to zero for each shooter.

Best,
Mike

 

[YubaCushion]

We can't help it.

We don't like 9 ball. We hadn't played in a long time and were happy not playing it.
We had to play the two shot version to see what all the hubbub was about in the other mega thread. That and one pocket. And now every time we go play, we always end up playing a few games of two shot. Damn that game. It's addicting. Is there anybody that has played both and still likes one foul.

 

[Lucky_Lew66]

sounds like there are too many rules, and its complicated, why would anyone want to play this way is beyond me, that may be part of our problem these days no standardized rules of play

 

[SJDinPHX]

We don't like 9 ball. We hadn't played in a long time and were happy not playing it.
We had to play the two shot version to see what all the hubbub was about in the other mega thread. That and one pocket. And now every time we go play, we always end up playing a few games of two shot. Damn that game. It's addicting. Is there anybody that has played both and still likes one foul. <--Short answer...NO !

Texas Express (one shot, BIH) began the demise of 9 ball, as the premier gambling game at pool..10 ball, is only prolonging it !
I can only speak for myself, but I certainly agree with CJ, Buddy, and most of the top player's, 9 ball, was how you "made your bones" for most of my life in pool !.. CJ was actually right on the cusp of the transition between the two different ways of playing..
..I am not surprised that he saw the 'radical' difference in the two sets of rules..Nor am I surprised that Bartrum may not recognize it ! (too young)

I am surprised, that CJ did not gravitate more towards One Pocket, as that is when it started to become the more popular method of 'high stakes' gambling, and matching up among top players !.. One Pocket was not only an easier game to disguise your skill level with "suckers"..it soon became the prefered game, among MOST of the top player's of that era...The nature of the game itself, will make you "s**t, or get off the pot"..No room for stalling, among two top player's !

One pocket is, without a doubt, the most challenging game on a pool table, and for those who think otherwise (including CJ) they have simply not invested enough time in the game !..I admit, it can be boring, and slow at times, and it may NEVER be popular with the general pool playing public, but the current crop of TOP younger player's (SVB, Alex, Shuff, etc.) are now realizing what it takes to become REALLY proficient at the game !..They may make it look like it at times, but it ain't all about "8 and out" !

Parica and Efren, (and later Frost and Gentile) just happened to be among the first to recognize that, as an absolute fact !..It is NOT a game where you can execute poorly, and make poor shot choices, and still WIN the cash ! (unless you are just racing to 2 or 3 )..Among two top gun's, of equal skill levels at pool, the most knowledgable mover will dominate 95% of the time, in a long session !

PS..Unless of course your name is 'Efren'...who can shoot the 'dead wrong' shot, multiple times a game, and still win !

 

[CJ Wiley]

.there was no "kicking" in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' unless.........

CJ,

There were/are 2 (two) ways to play two shot shoot out..."two by the same player" and "two in a row".

Different parts of the country played different ways, we had to always ask, "How are we we playing?, two in a row or two by the same?"


Thats it...two different ways and it made each game very different.




Came back to add this >: I was wrong...technically there are more than 2 ways to play.

In each game the fouls are reset on a legal hit. I've played both ways hundreds of times and I preferred "any two fouls" because the player could not "re roll out".....but once a legal hit was made the current fouls were erased and both players had no fouls against them.

This meant you could NOT run a few balls and lock up the opponent because he was NOT on "1 Foul"....if this weren't the case I would shoot at every roll out and play safe and the game would be silly because the other player would be "kicking".....there was no "kicking" in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' unless someone actually rolled out to a "kick shot" which was very, very, rarely.

My understanding was Mike Sigel got his nickname playing "One Foul" because he played so tight and would play shape to "hook" the opponent. I guess someone could ask him, I don't have his number, but he's actively marketing his new pool league.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Playing safe in SHOOT OUT doesn't accomplish anything if .......

Texas Express (one shot, BIH) began the demise of 9 ball, as the premier gambling game at pool..10 ball, is only prolonging it !
I can only speak for myself, but I certainly agree with CJ, Buddy, and most of the top player's, 9 ball, was how you "made your bones" for most of my life in pool !.. CJ was actually right on the cusp of the transition between the two different ways of playing..
..I am not surprised that he saw the 'radical' difference in the two sets of rules..Nor am I surprised that Bartrum may not recognize it ! (too young)

I am surprised, that CJ did not gravitate more towards One Pocket, as that is when it started to become the more popular method of 'high stakes' gambling, and matching up among top players !.. One Pocket was not only an easier game to disguise your skill level with "suckers"..it soon became the prefered game, among MOST of the top player's of that era...The nature of the game itself, will make you "s**t, or get off the pot"..No room for stalling, among two top player's !

One pocket is, without a doubt, the most challenging game on a pool table, and for those who think otherwise (including CJ) they have simply not invested enough time in the game !..I admit, it can be boring, and slow at times, and it may NEVER be popular with the general pool playing public, but the current crop of TOP younger player's (SVB, Alex, Shuff, etc.) are now realizing what it takes to become REALLY proficient at the game !..They may make it look like it at times, but it ain't all about "8 and out" !

Parica and Efren, (and later Frost and Gentile) just happened to be among the first to recognize that, as an absolute fact !..It is NOT a game where you can execute poorly, and make poor shot choices, and still WIN the cash ! (unless you are just racing to 2 or 3 )..Among two top gun's, of equal skill levels at pool, the most knowledgable mover will dominate 95% of the time, in a long session !

PS..Unless of course your name is 'Efren'...who can shoot the 'dead wrong' shot, multiple times a game, and still win !

You would be proud, I've been playing more and more One Pocket lately because there is action for me playing the game. No one around here will play any rotation pool these days {with me}, but they play One Pocket every day at Rusty's in Ft. Worth and I've been gambling there with one of the local champions. We've been going back and forth and slowly but surely I'm picking up the "tricks" of the "one pocket trade".

The only issue is the players have to play me so "tight" that it does get uneventful for periods of time. I can bank and run balls at a high level, but the "moving" part of the game is still challenging for me, "ducking" is not part of my nature.

One Pocket in some ways is more challenging and I've not denied that because it has a lot of defensive components and the "moving" is a skill within it's self.

'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball is still more difficult because of the degree of shot difficulty and that has always been my position (and I'm confident I can prove it beyond any doubt).

In SHOOT OUT the top players are going to roll out to the toughest position on the table and then probably shoot a "two way shot" or maneuver the object ball into the CENTER of the table so the opponent must roll out ot some kind of a shot.

Playing safe in SHOOT OUT doesn't accomplish anything if the object ball settles on the "end rail" like it does so often playing "One Foul ball-in-hand".......in one foul you try to take the object ball "out of play," and in Two Shot Shoot Out it is more of a stalling tactic.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Now you're talking about the weight? Wasn't the conversation about the rules?

Two entirely different things.

JC

I was responding/referring to the part of your post where you talked about the only ways to protect your money. I should have made that clear.

ONB

I follow the rules but not the conclusion as to why it's better. The only way you can "protect your money" is to either not play for it or be a superior player than your opponent. It doesn't matter what the rules are, the cream will rise to the top. Anyone who thinks changing the rules will allow them to win when they would otherwise lose is chasing fools gold.

JC