Two-Foul 9 Ball

[Old Nine Baller]

I would push out and in doing so, make the 3/9 combo and then position the cb on the long rail so I could then attempt to cut the 1 into the corner by the 5 if you made me shoot again. If not, it is still a tough shot for you.

This would also give me position for the 2 if I made it and a possible run of the rest of the balls.

This is also what I would attempt. I made the pic smaller this time. It's even O.K. if you scratch in the side here because the 1 would spot up between the 6 and the 9.




ONB

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Exactly right. I do wish you could explain your last sentence. I don't understand it. I'm probably getting too old.

ONB

If I read Richie correctly, what he is saying is by pocketing the 7 and 8 balls, he improves his chances against the six ball he is giving his opponent. The opponent doesn't necessarily need those balls anyway, so if his opponent doesn't get out on the 6 and Richie gets back to the table, he only needs to run 2 balls, the 6 and 9. Less chance of his opponent getting back to the table than if he had to run the 6,7,8, and 9.

 

[richiebalto]

If I read Richie correctly, what he is saying is by pocketing the 7 and 8 balls, he improves his chances against the six ball he is giving his opponent. The opponent doesn't necessarily need those balls anyway, so if his opponent doesn't get out on the 6 and Richie gets back to the table, he only needs to run 2 balls, the 6 and 9. Less chance of his opponent getting back to the table than if he had to run the 6,7,8, and 9.

Thanks dogs, that is what i was trying to say.

Iam not the best with my computer, sorry guys.

It was less balls i had to make to win the game, so to me it was lessen my spot.

 

[richiebalto]

I do wish you would explain your post so I could understand it. Thanks.

ONB

When i pushed out my plan was to play safe if i was giving the shot back.

I was taught too always push out with my next shot being a safe, if my opponent didnt take the shot. So i would push out and then always play a safe off of the first push.

Now this either made my opponet shoot a tough shot or push out himself!

 

[Black-Balled]

Push out pool is silly. Why other game are you permitted to reposition the lie at any point because yo don't like it?

 

[Pushout]

If you think push out 9 ball is silly, you never learned to play it properly, which I've suspected from your posts before on this subject. Why should I have to kick from behind three balls when you missed the shot by two diamonds?? Call every shot a called shot or a called safe and we'll see how ya like it! Then, give up ball-in-hand on a missed called shot or, like Wimpy used to play it, give up half the bet.

 

[Black-Balled]

If you think push out 9 ball is silly, you never learned to play it properly, which I've suspected from your posts before on this subject. Why should I have to kick from behind three balls when you missed the shot by two diamonds??

Same reason you can't bank the ball I bunted over to my side rail that is hidden by another...playing 1p: coz the shot is what it is.

And I did grow up playing 2foul.

And I still don't understand why the genius of push out never mad an appearance in other games?

And why should you be able to push out just coz you can't play shape or kick accurately?

 

[CJ Wiley]

the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. - 'The Game is the Teacher'

I have been a lurker here for quite awhile and I've been following the 2-Foul vs. 1-Foul comparison threads with much interest. I've noticed quite a few discrepancies in the descriptions of the 2-Foul game and I thought I'd tell what I know.



C.J. is correct in stating that two-foul 9-Ball is much superior to one-foul 9-Ball. Players, when faced with a tough shot will elect to shoot and take their chances rather than play a safety as you might in one-foul. There is much more offense because of this. Two-Foul is so rich in strategy that you really could write a book about it. A guy may push-out to a bankshot when he's hooked early in a set and you may tell him to "shoot again". Later in the set, with the match on the line he may push-out to the same bank that you've been telling him to shoot but this time you might take the shot. Much thinking and "daring" goes into the two-foul game.

Rarely are there more than one or two push-outs in a game between top players and even more rarely is a BIH given up. Remember, players aren't usually pushing out to a safety because their opponent can play the same one in return. They are usually pushing out to a shot of some type and that makes for a great game of offense. Almost never does a guy play a safety unless there is no option and then his opponent can play the safe and force him to push-out. Two-foul also frees up a player to take chances breaking up clusters or playing "tough" position because he knows he can always push-out if he gets hooked. You'll see many spectacular shots that one-foul players would never even attempt.

I know this is all very confusing to younger players who've grown up accustomed to one-foul BIH rules but two-foul is a much better way to play 9-Ball for a very important reason; it helps you protect your money. It doesn't matter if you are giving weight, getting weight, or playing even, it helps you protect your money. After all, that's the bottom line isn't it? Do you really want to kick at the 7 ball when you can push-out on it? Of course not.

Any questions feel free to ask away.

ONB

I knew eventually the "wise ones" would enter the conversation. It's been tough to go up against "the masses" of "one foul fans," however, this is a serious subject because "one foul ball-in-hand" did ruin 9 Ball. One foul is nothing but a watered down version of an awesome game......it's "Pool Lite"......Less Strategy, Less Entertainment, Less Skill .....

The "Two Shot Shoot Out" game, when played properly is a beautifully entertaining game and "One Foul", when played properly is a boring, uninteresting game.

Like I've said many times, "Two Shot" puts all the best elements into the game, shot-making, two way shots, two way safes, strategic push outs, strategic banks and cuts, long shots off the end rail, playing percentages, etc.

These things are in "One Foul" too, but only a small percentage compared to 'Two Shot Shoot Out'.....the games are similar when first presented, but when we look at the "deep structure," Shoot Out is far superior strategically and more strategically demanding than even one pocket......and I know makes some on here cringe, but it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Pushout]

LOL! I've been playing 9 ball for over 40 years. Do you REALLY think I can't kick or jump a ball?? Just because I don't like that game doesn't mean I can't play it. You're still on ignore, I just wanted to see if you posted the usual whiny comment like you usually do. There are a lot of people on AZ who prefer one-foul-ball-in-hand over push out but they don't post whiny comments. You always do. And, I play One Pocket too, bub, ya better believe it, and have for years and years!

 

[Black-Balled]

LOL! I've been playing 9 ball for over 40 years. Do you REALLY think I can't kick or jump a ball?? Just because I don't like that game doesn't mean I can't play it. You're still on ignore, I just wanted to see if you posted the usual whiny comment like you usually do. There are a lot of people on AZ who prefer one-foul-ball-in-hand over push out but they don't post whiny comments. You always do. And, I play One Pocket too, bub, ya better believe it, and have for years and years!

You still failed to address the questions I posed.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Thanks dogs, that is what i was trying to say.

Iam not the best with my computer, sorry guys.

It was less balls i had to make to win the game, so to me it was lessen my spot.

Makes sense to me. The only time it matters is if you are at the table when the 6 ball goes down, so you are the one shooting with only the 9 left to make instead of 3 more balls to get out. About the only time it would backfire is if you dog the shot after the 6 ball. If the 7 and 8 were still on the table your opponent would then have to run the 7,8, and 9 rather than just sink the 9. I guess you might also prefer more balls on the table on those occasions where you are able to sink the 6 ball with say an early combo, but that probably doesn't happen that often.

But since you are the one giving a pretty good spot (and the 6 is some good weight), I'd say it is way in your favor to win with just the 9 left and you having made the 6 ball just before that (and had the opportunity to get shape on the 9).

 

[dabarbr]

Here is my take on push out nine ball. First I never played where after a good hit the other player carried over a foul. All fouls were erased after a good hit.

Any two fouls versus two fouls by the same player are two different games with different strategy. If I felt that I was the better player than I would prefer any two fouls because I felt that I could be more offensively that my opponent.

When I played sharp shooters Like Keith or Louie Roberts, guys that could make balls from anywhere, I would prefer two fouls by the same player. If my opponent pushed out to a shot that I felt he would shoot at and make with position then I would re-push and put him where his best option would be to play a safe. Guys like this you have to outsmart not outshoot. For all the years that nine ball was played this way I was very successful.

In many push out games there was a time where you had to see that in three or four turns you will be in trouble with no where to push to. In these cases, if you could foresee this, then you needed to find a way to add another turn into the sequence so that he will be the one in trouble.

You would see more runouts because one was not afraid of playing for break outs and getting hooked like in todays one foul ball in hand. Back then if you broke them up and got hooked you would just push out.

 

[HawaiianEye]

You would see more runouts because one was not afraid of playing for break outs and getting hooked like in todays one foul ball in hand. Back then if you broke them up and got hooked you would just push out.

This is what I emphasized earlier on in this thread. The game is a "shooter" game that allows the shooter to "go for" shots that they wouldn't ordinarily go for because they always have the option to push if they don't get position (unless they scratch).

 

[JC]

I have been a lurker here for quite awhile and I've been following the 2-Foul vs. 1-Foul comparison threads with much interest. I've noticed quite a few discrepancies in the descriptions of the 2-Foul game and I thought I'd tell what I know.

First of all, "any two" means that BIH is given to the player who does not commit the 2nd consecutive foul. You do not need to be "hooked" to push-out. You can push-out anytime you want for any reason or no reason. All you need to do is commit a foul of any type and your opponent can tell you to "shoot again". If you "scratch" in a pocket and it's the 1st foul, your opponent can tell you to shoot again from behind the headstring or he can take the shot.

Some players liked to play that "all balls made on a foul spot up" but that's not a hard & fast rule. Some liked to play that "all balls made on a foul stay down" but that's up for discussion before playing.

Some liked to play that if you scratched in a pocket for the 1st foul and the lowest numbered ball was behind the headstring then it would spot-up. It would spot up behind any balls already on the footspot.

Some liked to play that only the "ball before the money" spots up on a foul. If you were playing "even" that would mean that if either player made the ball before the 9 and fouled then the ball before the 9 would spot up. Whether or not BIH was awarded was dependent upon whether or not it was the 1st or 2nd foul. Either way, the ball before the 9 would spot up.

When you were giving up "weight" it changed things a little. If you were giving up the 7 ball and your opponent scratched (in a pocket, 1st foul) after making the ball before the 7 you could make him spot it up and shoot at it (behind the line)...but, if you elected to shoot the next shot the ball he made would stay down as it was not the ball before your money ball (9). Either way, 1st or 2nd foul, if you made him shoot again, his ball before his money ball would spot up if he pocketed it and fouled. Also, if you pocketed his "money ball" (7 in this example) and fouled, it would come up on the spot in any case. You could not shoot in his money ball and foul and leave it down.

The "other" way to play "two-foul" was to play "two fouls by the same player is BIH". There are two variations of this game. The 1st is that if you push-out and then I shoot and make a good hit on the object ball your foul is erased.

A few guys liked to play that if you push-out and then I shoot and make a good hit you are still on one foul. That's a rather ridiculous way to play in that it gives the incoming player much too much power.

The entire point of two-foul 9-Ball is that the first player to foul or push-out gives up control of the table (potentially) to his opponent. That's the penalty and it's a tough one. Your penalty for getting out-of-line or making a mistake is possibly giving up control of the table. That's a huge penalty and should be the only penalty in my eyes.

With the one exception of playing "two by the same player" where guys might play you were still on a foul if you pushed-out and I make a good hit, any good hit by either player erased all fouls by both players.

I have seen this point missed on this site so I state it again: any good hit, without a foul occurring, erases any fouls for either player (except as stated above).

C.J. is correct in stating that two-foul 9-Ball is much superior to one-foul 9-Ball. Players, when faced with a tough shot will elect to shoot and take their chances rather than play a safety as you might in one-foul. There is much more offense because of this. Two-Foul is so rich in strategy that you really could write a book about it. A guy may push-out to a bankshot when he's hooked early in a set and you may tell him to "shoot again". Later in the set, with the match on the line he may push-out to the same bank that you've been telling him to shoot but this time you might take the shot. Much thinking and "daring" goes into the two-foul game.

Rarely are there more than one or two push-outs in a game between top players and even more rarely is a BIH given up. Remember, players aren't usually pushing out to a safety because their opponent can play the same one in return. They are usually pushing out to a shot of some type and that makes for a great game of offense. Almost never does a guy play a safety unless there is no option and then his opponent can play the safe and force him to push-out. Two-foul also frees up a player to take chances breaking up clusters or playing "tough" position because he knows he can always push-out if he gets hooked. You'll see many spectacular shots that one-foul players would never even attempt.

I know this is all very confusing to younger players who've grown up accustomed to one-foul BIH rules but two-foul is a much better way to play 9-Ball for a very important reason; it helps you protect your money. It doesn't matter if you are giving weight, getting weight, or playing even, it helps you protect your money. After all, that's the bottom line isn't it? Do you really want to kick at the 7 ball when you can push-out on it? Of course not.

Any questions feel free to ask away.

ONB

I follow the rules but not the conclusion as to why it's better. The only way you can "protect your money" is to either not play for it or be a superior player than your opponent. It doesn't matter what the rules are, the cream will rise to the top. Anyone who thinks changing the rules will allow them to win when they would otherwise lose is chasing fools gold.

JC

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

The ;cream' can take much longer to rise in 1 foul than in pushout because of the luck factor. Also, if you out-shoot your opponent and know how to play pushout strategy, but he out kicks you and out safes you, you will beat him playing pushout. There are 'rolls' in both games, but 1 foul has more of them. It takes much longer to beat a weaker player in 1 foul than pushout, if you beat him at all.
Its all rather moot though because nobody gambles at pushout anymore, at least not that I've seen in the last 30 yrs. Most players under 30-35 grew up with 1 foul. Hard to match up with a player who never heard of pushout, much less never played it.
Pushout is not good for tournments as it takes longer to play. 1 foul was invented in the 70's simply to speed up tournment play ( in the bca rule book it was called 'tournment rules' with a seperate section for '9 ball rules' which was pushout.
I would love to see pushout come back, but I dougt it will. If you want to 'duck' and kick....play 1hole...lol

 

[Black-Balled]

I am inclined to agree with the closing statement presented by the g-slinga and would further it by proposing a new rule set: ball in had for incoming play re after any miss. We shall call it death ball. Surely, nobody is using that name...

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I follow the rules but not the conclusion as to why it's better. The only way you can "protect your money" is to either not play for it or be a superior player than your opponent. It doesn't matter what the rules are, the cream will rise to the top. Anyone who thinks changing the rules will allow them to win when they would otherwise lose is chasing fools gold.

JC

Absolutely incorrect. Top players and very good players give up too much weight and lose everyday. Just because you're the weaker player doesn't mean you are going to lose.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

If I read Richie correctly, what he is saying is by pocketing the 7 and 8 balls, he improves his chances against the six ball he is giving his opponent. The opponent doesn't necessarily need those balls anyway, so if his opponent doesn't get out on the 6 and Richie gets back to the table, he only needs to run 2 balls, the 6 and 9. Less chance of his opponent getting back to the table than if he had to run the 6,7,8, and 9.

I see now, thank you. I was uncertain.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

When i pushed out my plan was to play safe if i was giving the shot back.

I was taught too always push out with my next shot being a safe, if my opponent didnt take the shot. So i would push out and then always play a safe off of the first push.

Now this either made my opponet shoot a tough shot or push out himself!

Playing safe off every pushout as a matter of practice doesn't seem like too good an idea but to each his own.

You cannot win playing safeties in 9 Ball, unless you're playing one-foul. Sooner or later you will have to shoot, it should be on your own terms when you do it though.

ONB

 

[Pushout]

Playing safe off every pushout as a matter of practice doesn't seem like too good an idea but to each his own.

You cannot win playing safeties in 9 Ball, unless you're playing one-foul. Sooner or later you will have to shoot, it should be on your own terms when you do it though.

ONB

I know a player who was world class when I met him in the early seventies. When we discussed this very topic, he said he always pushed out to a safety. Nine ball was not his favorite game, Straight Pool was. But he played 9 ball while on the road for many years in the late sixties, early seventies. That's one of the things about push out nine ball, there are so many more options than in one foul.